Article from WSJ yesterday. We've seen similar discussion previously but it's good to have the numbers in one spot so you can do your own math (weak on sources though). No surprise: Batteries are NOT green.

I don't have a problem with poking holes in the "electric cars will save us from AGW" argument, but it's not fair to imply these cars might not be green. So much focus has been placed on CO2 and warming, there seems to be much less thought given to those emitted compounds that we all agree are harmful. As a resident of the most air-polluted metroplex in the US, I absolutely appreciate the non-CO2-related benefits of an electric (or even hybrid) car. We don't have the volume of smog alerts we had when I was a kid but the air here still sucks through much of the summer. And lets face it: There are PLENTY of peer-reviewed and credible studies of the adverse health affects of smog. Of course, we haven't figured out how to rig the system so that smog abatement can be monetized...

Nice article, pretty much what many of us have said or hinted about before. But the libs will attack the source, the author, the website, etc. They will claim the stats are bogus, politically motivated, or prove nothing. Then they will chain themselves to a tree daring the bulldozer to hit them.

If only I was driving it.

I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

Electric Cars need to get away from battery technology. Fuel cells are the answer.

Those electric cars spark my interests, but feel I would be grounded if they only get 78 miles of use.

Reminds me of the Smug (smaug) episode on South Park, where people are driving around in "green" cars and feeling so smug about themselves.

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

(03-12-2013 06:34 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

Yeah, but there is no cost too high to pay and no real substitute for being able to lord it over your friends, relatives and neighbors by setting a green example for saving the planet.

(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 06:34 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

Yeah, but there is no cost too high to pay and no real substitute for being able to lord it over your friends, relatives and neighbors by setting a green example for saving the planet.

Ok..........

(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 06:34 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

Yeah, but there is no cost too high to pay and no real substitute for being able to lord it over your friends, relatives and neighbors by setting a green example for saving the planet.

I don't think Hammy is like that.

(03-12-2013 05:38 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  Electric Cars need to get away from battery technology. Fuel cells are the answer.

I can't believe I am agreeing with you but I agree.

(03-12-2013 08:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 06:34 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

Yeah, but there is no cost too high to pay and no real substitute for being able to lord it over your friends, relatives and neighbors by setting a green example for saving the planet.

I don't think Hammy is like that.

======================================================APOLOGY==========================

HAMBONE 10 - I want to personally make it clear that I am not accusing you of wanting to Lord it over anyone. It was just a joke and I did not in any way mean to infer anything against you or anyone @ setting a green example. I apologize because thanks to smn1256 I see where it could have been taken like that. Sorry.

Perry linked to this, but unfortunately he didn't reference the same column (Sowell's?) he brought up some years back, which started by saying "If only there was a way to measure all of this added energy that is consumed in production, so we could compare products to find out which is the least harmful." Of course the article then went on to explain that the cost of an object does that very thing. So, if a "green" product is also very expensive, odds are that it has a high environmental impact too.

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

I agree, but have come to the conclusion that hybrids/plug-ins, etc appeal to those that just want to feel "green" and don't consider the extra costs invloved. Whatever floats their boat. I'll keep driving my 10 year old 19mpg guzzler until the wheels fall off. I'm like you, $3-$4G in gas/year is a lot cheaper than buying a brand new car.

No worry APPS, and thanks for the support SMN. I'm not "that guy", but I will fully admit that I have less than altruistic reasons for wanting an electric car.

SMN, you're right about the electric bill, but I'm somewhat confident that it would still be less than effectively $4/gal... if the 100 MPGe figures are even remotely close.

My desire for an electric car stems more from a desire to be "innovative" and "self sufficient" (national security) rather than a desire to necessarily be "green". I'm not aware that ANY electricity, nor the fuel required to generate it is imported.... and though most of our oil is domestic, because it is a fungible commodity, demand here makes money for people NOT here... and because we need more than we have, they hold us hostage over it. This costs us billions, if not hundreds of billions each year in military and diplomatic expenses. I think electric or CNG or LP cars would help this. I also think that in general, electricity generation is a little less dirty than oil production. I'm not talking about greenhouse gasses and global warming, but that a NG leak doesn't leave tar balls on Galveston beach for 2 years.

As most of my trips are less than 5 miles, and almost all of them less than 20, Electric cars sound like a good idea, until I want to visit my kids. I'm REALLY hoping Teslas catch on and become easier to get. The whole idea of $60,000 cars selling for $115,000 because of supply/demand makes me mad, but if they could get that car, which is what the volt SHOULD have been, down to 40-50k... I'm in. The volt is a cheap Chevy with an expensive battery. The Tesla is an advanced Lexus. Heck, the dodge Dart is closer to the Tesla than the Volt is, imo.

I wouldn't buy a Prius because it feels cheap and looks ugly. Why would I pay up for a cheap, ugly car? The Tesla S looks like a high-tech Maserati.

Give me a car that performs comparably to the one I'm used to, no more expensive to buy, and cheaper to operate, and I'll buy it.

Provided I can get it in green (the color).

Am waiting for a 100% government subsidy so that I can get a new car, slice of cheese, an Obamaphone, Obamacare, food stamps, unemployment and whatever else on the way home.

(03-13-2013 12:57 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  Am waiting for a 100% government subsidy so that I can get a new car, slice of cheese, an Obamaphone, Obamacare, food stamps, unemployment and whatever else on the way home.

Start voting democrat and you'll eventually get all that. Of course, you won't get to keep all that very long because those that provide for the subsidy will be gone.

(03-13-2013 12:59 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 12:57 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  Am waiting for a 100% government subsidy so that I can get a new car, slice of cheese, an Obamaphone, Obamacare, food stamps, unemployment and whatever else on the way home.

Start voting democrat and you'll eventually get all that. Of course, you won't get to keep all that very long because those that provide for the subsidy will be gone.

Yeah, I probably should instead of for the best candidate. Could feather my nest for a couple of years maybe.

The article makes some good points (still pollutes a lot to build the car, still pollutes to create the electricity) but it's unfair to expect to get all the benefits all of a sudden. It's got to start somewhere. There are pushes to get towards renewable (or at least emissions-free) electric production at the same time as electric cars are being pushed. I'm wholly in favor of expanding nuclear power as a stop gap to get from coal/oil to something else. And, as production rises, and technology improves, the pollution caused by the production of the cars will decrease. You have to bootstrap the process, and it's not going to be perfect. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.

(03-12-2013 06:34 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

It wouldn't be more than what you save on gas, though

(03-13-2013 01:52 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  The article makes some good points (still pollutes a lot to build the car, still pollutes to create the electricity) but it's unfair to expect to get all the benefits all of a sudden. It's got to start somewhere. There are pushes to get towards renewable (or at least emissions-free) electric production at the same time as electric cars are being pushed. I'm wholly in favor of expanding nuclear power as a stop gap to get from coal/oil to something else. And, as production rises, and technology improves, the pollution caused by the production of the cars will decrease. You have to bootstrap the process, and it's not going to be perfect. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though.

(03-12-2013 06:34 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(03-12-2013 05:31 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd LOVE to buy a plug-in. I can't stand paying $4 for gas. Problem is, I can't justify spending $5-10,000 more for "less" of a car.

What's your home electric bill there in Houston? Charging your car would make it rise tremendously.

It wouldn't be more than what you save on gas, though

From what I've ready, the electricity to charge the car wouldn't up the home electricity bill to much.