(02-13-2013 12:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Said it when UL and Rutgers left. UC has 2 years max in this conference to get a life-line. Any longer, and the football program crashes back to a shinier version of the bad old days.

You think UCAT and fan support is bad now? Just wait until 3 years of Tulane et al and fighting to play in bowl games in places like Birmingham or worse.

Add in a declining basketball program because what big-time recruit wants to play in league of SMU, UCF and East Carolina. Mick's recruiting pipeline will dry up, and he may even be forced to leave his "dream" job. Whit Babcock will say "sorry", and bolt for a major program.

If we have both major programs in a free-fall decline, UC will be back again in Dave Currey and Ed Badger days. The thing that helped Minter was he ran a football program during the Huggins years. At least people were proud to be Bearcat fans even though the football team often took it on the chin. That will be gone with UC back playing in the "minor leagues." At least fans won't ***** that Nippert has no facilities, or there is no parking, when less than 5,000 attend games.

(02-13-2013 12:17 PM)Coopdaddy67 Wrote:  When I opened this post, this song was playing in the background:





Hmmmm.

Just saw Morrissey in Columbus last month.

I think you guys are little far fetched with the doom and gloom. I am not happy with any of this but basketball will be fine playing in super duper conference usa. You don't need the greatest basketball league to have a great program, there are enough decent ones in that conference to pick up the needed RPI Top 50 wins. Non-conference schedule will matter but basketball is the least of my worries at this point.

You do realize 68 teams make the NCAA tournament each year. This isn't football where there are less places at the big boy table.

(02-13-2013 01:57 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  I think you guys are little far fetched with the doom and gloom. I am not happy with any of this but basketball will be fine playing in super duper conference usa. You don't need the greatest basketball league to have a great program, there are enough decent ones in that conference to pick up the needed RPI Top 50 wins. Non-conference schedule will matter but basketball is the least of my worries at this point.

You do realize 68 teams make the NCAA tournament each year. This isn't football where there are less places at the big boy table.

Tournament is becoming way too overvalued, I prefer to enjoy great games in the regular season too...and those are going away.

(02-13-2013 01:57 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  I am not happy with any of this but basketball will be fine playing in super duper conference usa.

Really? Why would any decent recruit want to play in this watered-down league. This is not even the old C-USA with Louisville now gone. Add to that the loss of revenue with this crappy TV contract, UC will not be able to compete at even a modest level. Yes, they take 68 teams, so you will be excited to go watch the Cats play in Dayton during the play-in games against Howard.

(02-13-2013 02:12 PM)Ragpicker Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 01:57 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  I am not happy with any of this but basketball will be fine playing in super duper conference usa.

Really? Why would any decent recruit want to play in this watered-down league. This is not even the old C-USA with Louisville now gone. Add to that the loss of revenue with this crappy TV contract, UC will not be able to compete at even a modest level. Yes, they take 68 teams, so you will be excited to go watch the Cats play in Dayton during the play-in games against Howard.

I'm sensing some serious sarcasm...

I worry about revenue but not the basketball program ability to compete. Assuming their isn't any more realignment that saves UC from this conference which is a huge assumption at this point our program will still make annual NCAA tournament trips. A league with UConn, Temple, Memphis, and Cincinnati is roughly equal or better than the Memphis, Cincinnati, Marquette, DePaul combo in the Great Midwest and the Cincinnati, Memphis, Louisville, Marquette combo in C-USA. You could argue the middle tier in those leagues that included UAB, St. Louis, and Charlotte are stronger than SMU and UCF. Houston, Tulane, ECU, and USF were in C-USA too.

Once again assuming there isn't any more moves, there are going to be 8 to 9 major basketball conferences.

1. ACC, Syracuse, Duke, North Carolina, Louisville, Notre Dame
2. Big Ten, IU, Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Maryland
3. Big 12, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma,
4. Pac-12 UCLA, Arizona
5. New Big East, UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Temple
6. SEC, Kentucky, Florida
7. C7, Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier???, Butler???
8. Mountain West, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico
9. WCC, Gonzaga, BYU

How quick you forget that in our second to last year in C-USA, the conference had 6 bids which was tied with the SEC and ACC for the most bids for one league. Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Charlotte, UAB and DePaul all made the tournament. That doesn't even count Marquette who had a down year...

(02-13-2013 08:23 AM)#41 Wrote:  I don't even want to imagine what state the program will be in after a couple years playing at such a financial disadvantage.

The damage to the program may be irreparable.

This sort of talk is just silly. You've lost all perspective. The deal is like 1M less than what we make right now. If you believe a 1M difference will decimate the program to the point where you, "don't even want to imagine the state of the program" well then you have other challenges. The truth is, it's not like we're going from 20M to 2M. We've operated in this income environment for almost a decade.

Indiana, Minny, NC State, BC, Colorado, Iowa St, etc etc etc have all been killing us in the revenue dept over the last "x" years or so and where are they now? Long story short, we put good product on the field. Let's stop being freaking accountants and be sports fans. We got top 25 teams in the 2 major sports. We're going to upgrade a key revenue stream, i.e. Nippert, and we'll keep balling.





mc

(02-13-2013 02:27 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  1. ACC, Syracuse, Duke, North Carolina, Louisville, Notre Dame
2. Big Ten, IU, Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Maryland
3. Big 12, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma,
4. Pac-12 UCLA, Arizona
5. New Big East, UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Temple
6. SEC, Kentucky, Florida
7. C7, Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier???, Butler???
8. Mountain West, SDSU, UNLV, New Mexico
9. WCC, Gonzaga, BYU

Assuming UConn stays put, and that's a big assumption, I would rate the NBE 8th on your list from a recruit's perspective. Better than the SEC? No way - UK and Florida alone are a ticket to the NBA. The C7 with X and Butler is also not even close. Today's Big East level UC would currently play even with New Mexico (they did), SDSU and UNLV. A weakened Cats team would not compete.

Memphis is 20-3 this year but their biggest win is over Tennessee with losses to VCU, Minnesota, and UofL. They have feasted on the likes of Tulsa, SMU, Marshall, and UCF.

Temple is probably a good view of UC's future if they don't get into another conference. Major city school with pro sports. They drew just over 5,200 for basketball last season, and we all know what their football games look like played in the Eagles stadium.

(02-13-2013 02:42 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  How quick you forget that in our second to last year in C-USA, the conference had 6 bids which was tied with the SEC and ACC for the most bids for one league. Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, Charlotte, UAB and DePaul all made the tournament. That doesn't even count Marquette who had a down year...

Bounce, most years C-USA was a four bid league give or take a bid. Charlotte, UAB, and DePaul were solid programs but the new Big East looks pretty much like the same thing. Not great but not bad, good enough to make the tournament every without worrying on selection sunday.

(02-13-2013 02:12 PM)Ragpicker Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 01:57 PM)bearcatlawjd Wrote:  I am not happy with any of this but basketball will be fine playing in super duper conference usa.

Really? Why would any decent recruit want to play in this watered-down league. This is not even the old C-USA with Louisville now gone. Add to that the loss of revenue with this crappy TV contract, UC will not be able to compete at even a modest level. Yes, they take 68 teams, so you will be excited to go watch the Cats play in Dayton during the play-in games against Howard.

Agree that it will make things difficult but obviously basketball is a bit different than football with the tournament set up. Non power-conference programs still can recruit and compete at a high level although it's not as easy. Playing in a horrible CUSA, Memphis still has 5 top 100 recruits for the 2013 class.

(02-13-2013 02:49 PM)marcuscan Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 08:23 AM)#41 Wrote:  I don't even want to imagine what state the program will be in after a couple years playing at such a financial disadvantage.

The damage to the program may be irreparable.

This sort of talk is just silly. You've lost all perspective. The deal is like 1M less than what we make right now. If you believe a 1M difference will decimate the program to the point where you, "don't even want to imagine the state of the program" well then you have other challenges. The truth is, it's not like we're going from 20M to 2M. We've operated in this income environment for almost a decade.

Indiana, Minny, NC State, BC, Colorado, Iowa St, etc etc etc have all been killing us in the revenue dept over the last "x" years or so and where are they now? Long story short, we put good product on the field. Let's stop being freaking accountants and be sports fans. We got top 25 teams in the 2 major sports. We're going to upgrade a key revenue stream, i.e. Nippert, and we'll keep balling.





mc

Actually that isn't true. The 3.5 million was the average over the life of the contract, so this year UC is probably making closer to 5 million.

Why do the optimistic guys on this thread think the Power 5 schools will let us play in theiir tournament in the future? You've seen what they've done to football--- I got news for you---- basketball will be next. There has already been talk of it. Each and every year we see the talking heads on ESPN grumble because the #2 or #3 team from a conference like the A-10 or the MAC makes the tournament after they win their conference and the #9 team in the B10 has to sit out. The exclusion may not be as overt as in football, but there are subtle ways of doing it in CBB. Maybe a rule is instituted that Gang of 5 schools only get 1-2 bids.

Second, those of you comparing our days in the Great Midwest and C-USA to now are not considering the fact we live in a different time and place. In the age of conferences having exclusive television deals with networks the Power 5 schools will have considerable amount of more leverage than Group of 5 schools. They will have all the exposure on television and way more cash to pay for facilities to woo recruits.

(02-13-2013 02:49 PM)marcuscan Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 08:23 AM)#41 Wrote:  I don't even want to imagine what state the program will be in after a couple years playing at such a financial disadvantage.

The damage to the program may be irreparable.

This sort of talk is just silly. You've lost all perspective. The deal is like 1M less than what we make right now. If you believe a 1M difference will decimate the program to the point where you, "don't even want to imagine the state of the program" well then you have other challenges. The truth is, it's not like we're going from 20M to 2M. We've operated in this income environment for almost a decade.

Indiana, Minny, NC State, BC, Colorado, Iowa St, etc etc etc have all been killing us in the revenue dept over the last "x" years or so and where are they now? Long story short, we put good product on the field. Let's stop being freaking accountants and be sports fans. We got top 25 teams in the 2 major sports. We're going to upgrade a key revenue stream, i.e. Nippert, and we'll keep balling.

It's the combination of many factors -- the TV deal now puts UC at a greater than 10-1 competitive disadvantage with most other major programs before the first ticket is sold or first booster dollar is collected. That's money that can't be spent keeping facilities maintained to state-of-the-art level, can't be spent recruiting, can't be spent on upgrades to athletic training programs, etc. Recruits notice these things.

It also ties UC to a network that isn't affiliated with the ESPN halo (how much coverage do you expect ESPN to give NBCSN programming?) and isn't a channel that most people can find on their cable system. Saturday night "game of the week" on a channel most people don't really know exists? Awesome.

And, that's on top of all the previously stated problems with the competition level in the New Big East generally (poor quality of opponent, poor level of prestige for members, poor traveling fanbases, etc.).

There's only so many holes you can plug at once before the boat starts to sink.

(02-13-2013 03:13 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Why do the optimistic guys on this thread think the Power 5 schools will let us play in theiir tournament in the future? You've seen what they've done to football--- I got news for you---- basketball will be next. There has already been talk of it. Each and every year we see the talking heads on ESPN grumble because the #2 or #3 team from a conference like the A-10 or the MAC makes the tournament after they win their conference and the #9 team in the B10 has to sit out. The exclusion may not be as overt as in football, but there are subtle ways of doing it in CBB. Maybe a rule is instituted that Gang of 5 schools only get 1-2 bids.

Second, those of you comparing our days in the Great Midwest and C-USA to now are not considering the fact we live in a different time and place. In the age of conferences having exclusive television deals with networks the Power 5 schools will have considerable amount of more leverage than Group of 5 schools. They will have all the exposure on television and way more cash to pay for facilities to woo recruits.

Four conferences of 16 teams. This is what I have said for a long time.

That is 64 teams and works a perfect tournament where all teams make it. These 64 schools will only schedule within for both football and basketball. They may have to schedule some lesser oponents to fill the BB schedule, but not many.

They will sell the TV rights and keep all the money in their own little kingdom.

(02-13-2013 03:50 PM)Bearcat Otto Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 03:13 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Why do the optimistic guys on this thread think the Power 5 schools will let us play in theiir tournament in the future? You've seen what they've done to football--- I got news for you---- basketball will be next. There has already been talk of it. Each and every year we see the talking heads on ESPN grumble because the #2 or #3 team from a conference like the A-10 or the MAC makes the tournament after they win their conference and the #9 team in the B10 has to sit out. The exclusion may not be as overt as in football, but there are subtle ways of doing it in CBB. Maybe a rule is instituted that Gang of 5 schools only get 1-2 bids.

Second, those of you comparing our days in the Great Midwest and C-USA to now are not considering the fact we live in a different time and place. In the age of conferences having exclusive television deals with networks the Power 5 schools will have considerable amount of more leverage than Group of 5 schools. They will have all the exposure on television and way more cash to pay for facilities to woo recruits.

Four conferences of 16 teams. This is what I have said for a long time.

That is 64 teams and works a perfect tournament where all teams make it. These 64 schools will only schedule within for both football and basketball. They may have to schedule some lesser oponents to fill the BB schedule, but not many.

They will sell the TV rights and keep all the money in their own little kingdom.

I still think there is absolutely ZERO chance of this. Those conferences are not going to want to mess so drastically with an NCAA tournament that works so well. Every team in the tournament? Talk about devaluing every other regular season basketball game. Talk about taking away any significance to conference tournaments, when you can see all the same teams battling it out in the 64 team tournament. I could maybe fathom this for football only, but even then I think the goal is not to exclude everyone, just to make them far less relevant so that the bottom of the bottom get out, and even more of the money stays with them. Superconferences may come, but I don't see any way a 64 team tournament with everyone involved works at all for basketball.

(02-13-2013 03:54 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 03:50 PM)Bearcat Otto Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 03:13 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Why do the optimistic guys on this thread think the Power 5 schools will let us play in theiir tournament in the future? You've seen what they've done to football--- I got news for you---- basketball will be next. There has already been talk of it. Each and every year we see the talking heads on ESPN grumble because the #2 or #3 team from a conference like the A-10 or the MAC makes the tournament after they win their conference and the #9 team in the B10 has to sit out. The exclusion may not be as overt as in football, but there are subtle ways of doing it in CBB. Maybe a rule is instituted that Gang of 5 schools only get 1-2 bids.

Second, those of you comparing our days in the Great Midwest and C-USA to now are not considering the fact we live in a different time and place. In the age of conferences having exclusive television deals with networks the Power 5 schools will have considerable amount of more leverage than Group of 5 schools. They will have all the exposure on television and way more cash to pay for facilities to woo recruits.

Four conferences of 16 teams. This is what I have said for a long time.

That is 64 teams and works a perfect tournament where all teams make it. These 64 schools will only schedule within for both football and basketball. They may have to schedule some lesser oponents to fill the BB schedule, but not many.

They will sell the TV rights and keep all the money in their own little kingdom.

I still think there is absolutely ZERO chance of this. Those conferences are not going to want to mess so drastically with an NCAA tournament that works so well. Every team in the tournament? Talk about devaluing every other regular season basketball game. Talk about taking away any significance to conference tournaments, when you can see all the same teams battling it out in the 64 team tournament. I could maybe fathom this for football only, but even then I think the goal is not to exclude everyone, just to make them far less relevant so that the bottom of the bottom get out, and even more of the money stays with them. Superconferences may come, but I don't see any way a 64 team tournament with everyone involved works at all for basketball.

I don't see complet excluson but I can see the Power Conference schools limiting the opportunity further than what it already is. First they'll take away the automatic bids and then teams in the non-cartel conferences whill be held to such scrunity they won't get in.

(02-13-2013 02:59 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 02:49 PM)marcuscan Wrote:  

(02-13-2013 08:23 AM)#41 Wrote:  I don't even want to imagine what state the program will be in after a couple years playing at such a financial disadvantage.

The damage to the program may be irreparable.

This sort of talk is just silly. You've lost all perspective. The deal is like 1M less than what we make right now. If you believe a 1M difference will decimate the program to the point where you, "don't even want to imagine the state of the program" well then you have other challenges. The truth is, it's not like we're going from 20M to 2M. We've operated in this income environment for almost a decade.

Indiana, Minny, NC State, BC, Colorado, Iowa St, etc etc etc have all been killing us in the revenue dept over the last "x" years or so and where are they now? Long story short, we put good product on the field. Let's stop being freaking accountants and be sports fans. We got top 25 teams in the 2 major sports. We're going to upgrade a key revenue stream, i.e. Nippert, and we'll keep balling.





mc

Actually that isn't true. The 3.5 million was the average over the life of the contract, so this year UC is probably making closer to 5 million.

By the parameters of the current deal we make 3M a year. There are add-ons.....as there will be for the new one. My point remains. We're not experiencing a dramatic fall off in revenue so doomsday scenarios regarding our program are somewhat misleading.




mc

Wow... so much doom and gloom.

You have to figure that once more movement happens (and it will) UC will be one of the next 2-3 in line. It's not so much a question of will more movement happen, it's when... and, of course, will UC be on the move with the next train.

Why do so many seem so convinced that conference realignment is over? If UC is still stuck in this joke of a conference after the next round, then it may be time for doom and gloom.... but not yet.