(05-16-2012 10:52 AM)Panthersville Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 09:45 AM)DrGonzo Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 09:32 AM)InjunJohn Wrote:  Well, I posted this before when someone raised this same issue so I will say it again. The Top 25 FCS teams (coaches final poll) went a combined 2-20 against FBS schools. The only 2 victories were from the top 2 teams. The national champ, Norht Dakota St beat a 3-9 Minn team and the runner up, Sam Houston St, beat a 1-11 New Mexico in overtime. Everyone else lost. That is the best 25 teams in FCS who had to get fired up for one game. This isn't playing FSU and then playing TCU the next week or following Auburn with Arkansas. The best two teams got victories with two of the worst teams.

You're not accounting for the fact that the top FCS teams always play the top BCS teams.

That may be the worst retort I've ever seen. Let's look at who the "top" FCS team has played lately:
2011: ND played Minn (W)
2010: EW played Nevada (L)
2009: Nova played Temple (W)
2008: Richmond played Virginia (L 16-0)

Not a whole lot of "top BCS teams" there.

Before your "miracle in Michigan" you lost to Kansas, NC State and LSU - only one of which would be a "top BCS team". The truth is that just about every FCS team plays an FBS team, and the overall talent level difference is HUGE.

Maybe if you had left the majority of the post instead of cropping off all but the first sentence, it would have been a better retort.

Outside of ECU, our latest FBS games have been against BCS powerhouses. And even Kansas and NC State are powerhouses compared to MAC and SBC schools.

Indeed, your retort was the bad one. You have yet to address the trend of top FCS mostly playing top FBS and the claim that the top FCS teams would compete well with SBC and MAC schools.

To my knowledge the only SBC team who faced a ranked FCS team in recent memory was when ASU played FCS 2nd round participant Central Arkansas.

ASU didnt punt the entire game, and won by 40 points, and could have done so by much worse had we not played backups all 4th quarter.

Georgia Southern gets a whole bunch of credit in Saragin polls because they played Alabama.

(05-16-2012 11:26 AM)MTPiKapp Wrote:  The debate was not whether or not FCS teams beat FBS teams, we all know that to be the case. Upsets do happen. The debate was whether or not the top FCS teams only play top FBS teams, which clearly isn't the case. He was just showing what the past national champions have done and clearly none of them were playing top FBS teams.

If thats the case then there is absolutely nothing in that post that matters.

NDST, EWU Villanova and Richmond to a lesser extent are newcomers to FCS success. They all came out of nowhere to win their Championships, and 3 of those likely wont win another in the next decade, NDST is on its first NC, we'll see where they go from here.

FBS teams sure didnt know how good they were. There is a difference between winning a NC, and being an FCS power.

Just to point something out, in three consecutive years, App played against 3 different number 1 draft picks. Mario Williams, JaMarcus Russell, and Jake Long. That should tell you the calibre of teams we usually have to play.

Part of the reason you dont see SBC face teams like App State is travel. We're not going to pay to bring App State to Jonesboro when we can bring Alcorn State for a lot less.

The other reason is the simple fact that in terms of fan interest, very few FCS teams are well known. Our fans dont know the difference between Georgia Southern and Furman. They both carry the same meaning. A few might not even realize that Georgia Southern is even a strong FCS Program. Why on earth would we schedule a game and risk having to play a closer game, when we could wax a SWAC school by 50 and look much better in the eyes of our fans

From a fans perspective, a 20 point win over Georgia Southern is much worse then a 40 point win over a SWAC school.

Im not arguing against your point. It makes good sense. But some on here have a habit of using FCS records against FBS Titans against us when predicting how competative we'll be, which is nonsense.

There is no good measuring stick, and wont be until we make the jump.

(05-16-2012 11:42 AM)Glassonion Wrote:  Im not arguing against your point. It makes good sense. But some on here have a habit of using FCS records against FBS Titans against us when predicting how competative we'll be, which is nonsense.

There is no good measuring stick, and wont be until we make the jump.

This whole thread started as someone trying to compare FCS schools (namely Georgia Southern) to FBS schools (SBC to be exact) using Saragin ratings. Some of you FCS fans seem to think because you kick butt at the FCS level that you can jump right up and compete automatically. So I simply showed some facts. First, the top 25 of the FCS did a miserable job against their FBS opponents (2-22). You chimed in with competing against the SBC and the MAC and I agains showed you how the FCS went against those teams last year (FBS 15-1 and 3-0 against Top 25 FCS).

No one is saying that a FCS team can't beat a FBS team. The point you are missing is that while you play ONE game a year against a named opponent, most of the "bottom tier" FBS teams are playing 2-3 named opponents and then a conference schedule against teams that are more talented top to bottom with more depth than the teams at the FCS level. The records show that.

The Sun Belt is no SEC, and FCS is no Sun Belt. Tiers of talent exist whether you want to see it or not. You don't see our fans claiming we could dominate a top-level FBS Conference, maybe yall should follow our example and show some respect for those at a higher level of competition.

No one here is saying the FCS is worthless or lacking in talent, but none of your teams are on the same level as the majority of FBS. Whether you want to admit it or not, the Sun Belt Conference is home to programs that generally are just better than FCS programs.

Playing a single FBS opponent each season and doing well does not equal an ability to play a full FBS schedule and seeing similar results. Troy can go out there and beat an SEC team, but I don't think we could win the SEC. Same principle can be applied to FCS teams.

I'm a big supporter of App State, I watch several of their games. I think they are an awesome FCS program and eventually could see success in the Sun Belt, but as it stands now I don't think they would win the SBC.

Why are y'all continuing a debate about "woulda, coulda" from a bunch of two faced FBS wanna-be? On the one hand they all talk about the greatness of FCS playoff and being the big fish in the small pond while on the other hand they are climbing over each others back begging an invitation from every and any FBS conference.

They all realize that even playing in the bottom of FBS is still better than 6 NC at the FCS level. FCS has a glass ceiling (maybe not glass because it is very obvious) and no amount of FCS "national championships" can get a team above that ceiling.

(05-16-2012 11:52 AM)InjunJohn Wrote:  This whole thread started as someone trying to compare FCS schools (namely Georgia Southern) to FBS schools (SBC to be exact) using Saragin ratings. Some of you FCS fans seem to think because you kick butt at the FCS level that you can jump right up and compete automatically. So I simply showed some facts. First, the top 25 of the FCS did a miserable job against their FBS opponents (2-22). You chimed in with competing against the SBC and the MAC and I agains showed you how the FCS went against those teams last year (FBS 15-1 and 3-0 against Top 25 FCS).

No one is saying that a FCS team can't beat a FBS team. The point you are missing is that while you play ONE game a year against a named opponent, most of the "bottom tier" FBS teams are playing 2-3 named opponents and then a conference schedule against teams that are more talented top to bottom with more depth than the teams at the FCS level. The records show that.

To me, it seems youre the one missing the point.

The very premise of the thread is absurd, and the answer to it was equally absurd.

There are around 8 elite FCS teams, and very few of them anywhere near the Sun Belt. New Hampshire is an elite FCS, and are located in MAC country, and are 7-4-1 against FBS schools.

Delaware, similar to New Hampshire, is 15-10 against FBS teams.

Montana is another elite FCS school, but is located in the middle of nowhere, and rarely plays FBS teams at all.

App, GSU, JMU, are located in ACC/SEC country, and play those conferences which pay them twice as much as a Sun Belt team can afford.

There is no measuring stick, and all this extremely loose conjecture sucks.

(05-16-2012 12:07 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 11:52 AM)InjunJohn Wrote:  This whole thread started as someone trying to compare FCS schools (namely Georgia Southern) to FBS schools (SBC to be exact) using Saragin ratings. Some of you FCS fans seem to think because you kick butt at the FCS level that you can jump right up and compete automatically. So I simply showed some facts. First, the top 25 of the FCS did a miserable job against their FBS opponents (2-22). You chimed in with competing against the SBC and the MAC and I agains showed you how the FCS went against those teams last year (FBS 15-1 and 3-0 against Top 25 FCS).

No one is saying that a FCS team can't beat a FBS team. The point you are missing is that while you play ONE game a year against a named opponent, most of the "bottom tier" FBS teams are playing 2-3 named opponents and then a conference schedule against teams that are more talented top to bottom with more depth than the teams at the FCS level. The records show that.

To me, it seems youre the one missing the point.

The very premise of the thread is absurd, and the answer to it was equally absurd.

There are around 8 elite FCS teams, and very few of them anywhere near the Sun Belt. New Hampshire is an elite FCS, and are located in MAC country, and are 7-4-1 against FBS schools.

Delaware, similar to New Hampshire, is 15-10 against FBS teams.

Montana is another elite FCS school, but is located in the middle of nowhere, and rarely plays FBS teams at all.

App, GSU, JMU, are located in ACC/SEC country, and play those conferences which pay them twice as much as a Sun Belt team can afford.

There is no measuring stick, and all this extremely loose conjecture sucks.

well, only because I am bored, I went and checked out the "elite" teams you mentioned from 2002-2011 (what ESPN shows for records).

App St 1-9
Ga Sou 0-6
Mont 2-4
Del 2-4
NH 4-3
JMU 1-6

Grand total of 10-32. That is the elite that you held up. And the team holding you up (New Hampshire).....their 4 wins were against Ball St (3-9), Army (3-9), Marshall (3-9) and Rutgers (3-9).

Again, not saying that those aren't good teams and that there aren't good teams in FCS. I believe that some of the teams you mentioned could transition and eventually be successful. But if all the teams you mentioned played the schedules that teams in the SBC play, you would be lucky to have a winning season in 3 years. It isn't just the talent level of starters versus starters, but it is the depth of the teams you play.

(05-16-2012 12:56 PM)InjunJohn Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 12:07 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 11:52 AM)InjunJohn Wrote:  This whole thread started as someone trying to compare FCS schools (namely Georgia Southern) to FBS schools (SBC to be exact) using Saragin ratings. Some of you FCS fans seem to think because you kick butt at the FCS level that you can jump right up and compete automatically. So I simply showed some facts. First, the top 25 of the FCS did a miserable job against their FBS opponents (2-22). You chimed in with competing against the SBC and the MAC and I agains showed you how the FCS went against those teams last year (FBS 15-1 and 3-0 against Top 25 FCS).

No one is saying that a FCS team can't beat a FBS team. The point you are missing is that while you play ONE game a year against a named opponent, most of the "bottom tier" FBS teams are playing 2-3 named opponents and then a conference schedule against teams that are more talented top to bottom with more depth than the teams at the FCS level. The records show that.

To me, it seems youre the one missing the point.

The very premise of the thread is absurd, and the answer to it was equally absurd.

There are around 8 elite FCS teams, and very few of them anywhere near the Sun Belt. New Hampshire is an elite FCS, and are located in MAC country, and are 7-4-1 against FBS schools.

Delaware, similar to New Hampshire, is 15-10 against FBS teams.

Montana is another elite FCS school, but is located in the middle of nowhere, and rarely plays FBS teams at all.

App, GSU, JMU, are located in ACC/SEC country, and play those conferences which pay them twice as much as a Sun Belt team can afford.

There is no measuring stick, and all this extremely loose conjecture sucks.

well, only because I am bored, I went and checked out the "elite" teams you mentioned from 2002-2011 (what ESPN shows for records).

App St 1-9
Ga Sou 0-6
Mont 2-4
Del 2-4
NH 4-3
JMU 1-6

Grand total of 10-32. That is the elite that you held up. And the team holding you up (New Hampshire).....their 4 wins were against Ball St (3-9), Army (3-9), Marshall (3-9) and Rutgers (3-9).

Again, not saying that those aren't good teams and that there aren't good teams in FCS. I believe that some of the teams you mentioned could transition and eventually be successful. But if all the teams you mentioned played the schedules that teams in the SBC play, you would be lucky to have a winning season in 3 years. It isn't just the talent level of starters versus starters, but it is the depth of the teams you play.

That settles it......New Hampshire to the SBC NOW!!!!!

(05-16-2012 12:56 PM)InjunJohn Wrote:  Again, not saying that those aren't good teams and that there aren't good teams in FCS. I believe that some of the teams you mentioned could transition and eventually be successful. But if all the teams you mentioned played the schedules that teams in the SBC play, you would be lucky to have a winning season in 3 years. It isn't just the talent level of starters versus starters, but it is the depth of the teams you play.

Lucky to have a winning season? Just how many teams do you think would have beat us last season?

Ga St? No

Tx St? Theyre still playing at an FCS level.

FAU? 0-8 in Conference? God I hope not.

MTU? 1-7 in conference, that win being against a winless FAU?

Troy? Beat a winless FAU team, And a team that only beat FAU.

LA Monroe? Beat a winless FAU team, a team tha beat only FAU, and Troy who only beat those two previous teams.

N Texas? Their record wasnt much better.

If App moves up, our first SB schedule will be in 2014, with a higher number of schollies. I fully expect to be in the 5-4 conference record range.

2-3 years and we're competing for SB championships.

(05-16-2012 12:56 PM)InjunJohn Wrote:  App St 1-9

Vtech, Florida, ECU (CUSA Champs,) LSU, Michigan, NC State, LSU, Kansas.

What would your record be?

(05-16-2012 01:41 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 12:56 PM)InjunJohn Wrote:  Again, not saying that those aren't good teams and that there aren't good teams in FCS. I believe that some of the teams you mentioned could transition and eventually be successful. But if all the teams you mentioned played the schedules that teams in the SBC play, you would be lucky to have a winning season in 3 years. It isn't just the talent level of starters versus starters, but it is the depth of the teams you play.

Lucky to have a winning season? Just how many teams do you think would have beat us last season?

Ga St? No

Tx St? Theyre still playing at an FCS level.

FAU? 0-8 in Conference? God I hope not.

MTU? 1-7 in conference, that win being against a winless FAU?

Troy? Beat a winless FAU team, And a team that only beat FAU.

LA Monroe? Beat a winless FAU team, a team tha beat only FAU, and Troy who only beat those two previous teams.

N Texas? Their record wasnt much better.

If App moves up, our first SB schedule will be in 2014, with a higher number of schollies. I fully expect to be in the 5-4 conference record range.

2-3 years and we're competing for SB championships.

I'm not being sarcastic or rude in any way, but you obviously failed to realize that last year was "rebuilding" for almost every SunBelt program. Maybe you missed the fact that MT had a 10 win season not long ago or the fact that Troy is a major powerhouse in the SunBelt. Instead of just looking at last season, why don't you go back and review the past 5 to make it fair. And even if MT only had 2 wins last season, yes I still think they would have beat you. I give you guys 4-5 years before you even think about competing for the SBC championship. Run with the big boys first before you start making assumptions about how great your team will be. I'm not saying you don't have potential, but I wouldn't start getting bigheaded yet.

(05-16-2012 01:41 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  Lucky to have a winning season? Just how many teams do you think would have beat us last season?

Ga St? No

Tx St? Theyre still playing at an FCS level.

FAU? 0-8 in Conference? God I hope not.

MTU? 1-7 in conference, that win being against a winless FAU?

Troy? Beat a winless FAU team, And a team that only beat FAU.

LA Monroe? Beat a winless FAU team, a team tha beat only FAU, and Troy who only beat those two previous teams.

N Texas? Their record wasnt much better.

If App moves up, our first SB schedule will be in 2014, with a higher number of schollies. I fully expect to be in the 5-4 conference record range.

2-3 years and we're competing for SB championships.

That's assuming that none of these teams improve within the next few years; I know both MT and Troy's seasons last year were anomalies.

8 pages because of one troll from a school that hasn't done anything since i can remember.

we played them the year we won it all and that is ancient history.

i remember tracy ham doing his best willie taggart imitation and beating us pretty badly but other than those memories i know nothing of them.

i'm pretty sure that the louieville trinity shamrocks got more ink in usa today last year as the top ranked high school team than georgia southern will get all year. and that includes if they win the fcs playoffs.

i know firsthand. i'm glad we won it all that year. but the state newspapers reported we had won the division 2 championship. nobody except for us and mcneese state could have cared less.

this guy is just trying to stir the pot and did a pretty good job of it.

(05-16-2012 01:51 PM)MTalum09 Wrote:  I'm not being sarcastic or rude in any way, but you obviously failed to realize that last year was "rebuilding" for almost every SunBelt program. Maybe you missed the fact that MT had a 10 win season not long ago or the fact that Troy is a major powerhouse in the SunBelt. Instead of just looking at last season, why don't you go back and review the past 5 to make it fair. And even if MT only had 2 wins last season, yes I still think they would have beat you. I give you guys 4-5 years before you even think about competing for the SBC championship. Run with the big boys first before you start making assumptions about how great your team will be. I'm not saying you don't have potential, but I wouldn't start getting bigheaded yet.

Some schools were rebuilding last year, and some schools will be rebuilding next year. There are no assumptions just my opinion. I watch alot of college football, and far more FCS ball than 99% of Sun Belt fans Im sure. I find it funny that fans that could count the number of times theyve seen App play on one hand feel confident enough to make their opinions known, and then balk at the opinions of others.

All you guys are doing is pissing in the wind back and forth and around again.

FBS folks. Hey, remember many of your teams were FCS once. Hell, a lot of the SBC teams were SLC teams before moving up. What's your point?

If you think FCS fans are unaware of the inequalities between the two divisions, get over it. The main FCS argument is not that we're equal (though can become so after a move up) but that, on any given Saturday, the possiblity of an FCS win is there.

FCS teams do not get 4/5 star recruits, the top 25 players in their state or the bigger faster, more skilled ones. We also are down 22 scholarships and about 25-30 overall players on the depth charts. We know all this. It doesn't stop the passion of pulling for our team in a game where we know we will get our asses kicked.

Having been FCS, I would think many of the posters on this forum (in particular) understand where we come form but perhaps many of you are too young to remember those days.

If you want my opinion, FCS fans are more knowledgeable about the whole DI landscape than FBS fans. We grew up knowing about UT, ND, Ohio St, Miami, USC, UCLA, Alabama, et al. They were all you heard and knew about. When we became affiliated with an FCS school we then delved into that world. How many FBS fans can say they know the conferences in FCS? The AQs for the playoffs? What teams/conferences do not have 63 schollies, which have less or none and who does not participate in the playoffs...by choice? Can you name 25 FCS teams? How about the traditonally best program in each of those conferences?

We get it. We know it. We realize we don't play 12 games (except certain years) and we don't play 12 games against FBS. We also know that by the 3rd quarter the depth and talent rears its ugly head. It does not preclude an FCS team that moves up from being competitive by the time they are full members. Realistic? Probably not but anything can happen.

It also does not preclude FCS fans from being totally passionate about their school.

(05-16-2012 02:00 PM)Glassonion Wrote:  

(05-16-2012 01:51 PM)MTalum09 Wrote:  I'm not being sarcastic or rude in any way, but you obviously failed to realize that last year was "rebuilding" for almost every SunBelt program. Maybe you missed the fact that MT had a 10 win season not long ago or the fact that Troy is a major powerhouse in the SunBelt. Instead of just looking at last season, why don't you go back and review the past 5 to make it fair. And even if MT only had 2 wins last season, yes I still think they would have beat you. I give you guys 4-5 years before you even think about competing for the SBC championship. Run with the big boys first before you start making assumptions about how great your team will be. I'm not saying you don't have potential, but I wouldn't start getting bigheaded yet.

Some schools were rebuilding last year, and some schools will be rebuilding next year. There are no assumptions just my opinion. I watch alot of college football, and far more FCS ball than 99% of Sun Belt fans Im sure. I find it funny that fans that could count the number of times theyve seen App play on one hand feel confident enough to make their opinions known, and then balk at the opinions of others.

So how many times have you watched MT play? What about Troy or Ark State? It's not like we are on TV every weekend. So isn't this somewhat calling the kettle black?