Among other reasons: to create doubt/uncertainty about Israeli intentions.

I can throw that back at you too. Why should we be so naive to think Netanyahu is being truthful when he says Iran will use the bomb and they're an existential threat?

(03-06-2012 11:50 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Among other reasons: to create doubt/uncertainty about Israeli intentions.

And at the same time damage public support for a strike? Brilliant!

I don't take Netanyahu's statements at face-value, either.

But you seem to take what he says at face value.

So it's all a wash now and we can't believe what anyone says, ever, on international affairs because they all have ulterior motives. So this whole thread is a waste and you disagree with the original post?

Remember folks, Mini Power believes we went to war in Iraq because of the Jews. You know, the same reason Germany lost WWI.

Keep it in mind when engaging him.

(03-06-2012 12:18 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Remember folks, Mini Power believes we went to war in Iraq because of the Jews. You know, the same reason Germany lost WWI.

Keep it in mind when engaging him.

How do you know this? I must have missed that post.

(03-05-2012 10:45 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  He speaks simply and clearly, and he gets to the heart of an issue much in the same way Lincoln was able to do.

Iran is a radical, irrational, and medieval state. They have threatened to destroy Israel. They cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons.

And this has nothing to do with "killing all the brown people" as some liberal clowns on this board have alleged.

that man wouldn't know diplomacy if it walked up and introduced itself...that's JUST what America needs.

(03-06-2012 12:40 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 12:18 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Remember folks, Mini Power believes we went to war in Iraq because of the Jews. You know, the same reason Germany lost WWI.

Keep it in mind when engaging him.

How do you know this? I must have missed that post.

Start at post 85 and work your way from there.

You can skip your posts in there though. They added nothing of value. However I know reading drains you, so I'll just post one line from one of his posts.

Quote:Israel itself and pro-Israel groups were not only a factor but arguably the main factor behind the Iraq War,

The thing that Israel has over us is that they know their purpose. They are a country that is supposed to be a haven for Jews and they take it seriously. Sure they have their divisions but whatever they do in that country is for its best interests. We don't do that.

I should have said, "I don't take ALL of Netanyahu's statements at face-value." Specifically, his public statements about what Israel will or will not do under X circumstances. But in fact I do agree with the OP's comment that Netanyahu has a rare knack for speaking simply and clearly, and cutting through the rhetorical fog that smothers most public discussion of these issues.

I believe some things to be true about "international affairs", quite aside from my willingness to trust the statements that politicians make about the subject. One of them is that if the current regime in charge of Iran acquires nuclear weapons, that will lead to a large-scale war involving Iran, Israel, the US, and many other nations. This belief, above all the others, is my main reason for wanting to prevent Iran from obtaining such weapons. It is tragic that so many people do not grasp the urgency of that issue.

Another of my beliefs is that "public support" --whether measured in Israel, the US, or in other countries -- for an Israeli "strike" against Iran is both (a.) mostly irrelevant to the question of whether such a strike actually occurs, and (b.) mostly unrelated to public statements about the prospect made by officials in the Israeli military/government. Therefore, all such statements, whether "belligerent" or "conciliatory", are designed primarily to gauge public reaction and to create strategic confusion about Israel's true military intentions. The fact that some or all of those statements may also be sincerely uttered by the person speaking, is true but beside the point.

Notice how Ninerfan can't argue the issue and instead tries to stifle debate by calling me an anti semite. It's because his neocon ideology is intellectually bankrupt and he knows it.

No I never blamed "the Jews". I said Israeli officials and certain evangelical Christians were a factor and I supplied many quotes to substantiate it. Plenty of Jews were against the Iraq War. Jon Stewart, Joe Klein of Time magazine. There is a Jewish group, J Street, which opposes AIPAC. But I expect no less from a neocon liar.

Israeli is coded language for Jews.

(03-06-2012 02:03 PM)Ninerfan1 Wrote:  Israeli is coded language for Jews.

Is Max Power really Mel Gibson? He oozes hatred for the Jews...and glows with envy of the Iranians.

Net doesn't have to worry about re-election...

Our politicians have to be lukewarm milquetoast in order to ensure their paychecks keep coming.

Also, Iranians are more homogenous than Americans.

I can't agree a war with Iran is inevitable. Just too many variables. The Likudniks could get swept from power; Aqmedinejad could get swept from power; and peace can be brokered. Who thought Egypt would ever agree to peace with Israel? Iran is on record as saying they will recognize Israel if a Palestinian state can be established. By no means is war inevitable. War seemed much more inevitable at times between the USA and USSR but that ended peacefully. Give peace a chance yo.

What I do know is that if we or Israel start a war it can get real ugly real fast, be a massive drain on our resources in terms of human and capital and quite possibly lead to a new cold war with the Russians. I wouldn't care so much what Israel does if we didn't give them billions and supply their weapons, but because we do the backlash will hit us too and we'll be dragged into the fight. This is what our administration and chairman of the JCOS realize and it's why they're urging caution publicly and privately with Natanyahu, at much political expense thanks to neocon hawk liars willing to paint them as being anti Israeli or semitic for cheap political points.

Public support does matter because we're democracies and Netanyahu does have to be concerned for the future of his far right Likud party if this doesn't go well, even if he's not running for reelection. And sorry I just can't buy that he is seemingly the only high up voice calling Iran an existential threat to confuse Iran. It goes against all I hear from everywhere else both publically and privately from my cousin who was a diplomat at State. Netanyahu is lobbying, to the US and Israeli public and quite frankly I'm shocked at how successful he's been considering all the evidence to the contrary and how fresh in our minds the Iraq blunder is.

(03-06-2012 04:50 PM)Max Power Wrote:  I can't agree a war with Iran is inevitable. Just too many variables. The Likudniks could get swept from power; Aqmedinejad could get swept from power; and peace can be brokered. Who thought Egypt would ever agree to peace with Israel? Iran is on record as saying they will recognize Israel if a Palestinian state can be established. By no means is war inevitable. War seemed much more inevitable at times between the USA and USSR but that ended peacefully. Give peace a chance yo.

What I do know is that if we or Israel start a war it can get real ugly real fast, be a massive drain on our resources in terms of human and capital and quite possibly lead to a new cold war with the Russians. I wouldn't care so much what Israel does if we didn't give them billions and supply their weapons, but because we do the backlash will hit us too and we'll be dragged into the fight. This is what our administration and chairman of the JCOS realize and it's why they're urging caution publicly and privately with Natanyahu, at much political expense thanks to neocon hawk liars willing to paint them as being anti Israeli or semitic for cheap political points.

Public support does matter because we're democracies and Netanyahu does have to be concerned for the future of his far right Likud party if this doesn't go well, even if he's not running for reelection. And sorry I just can't buy that he is seemingly the only high up voice calling Iran an existential threat to confuse Iran. It goes against all I hear from everywhere else both publically and privately from my cousin who was a diplomat at State. Netanyahu is lobbying, to the US and Israeli public and quite frankly I'm shocked at how successful he's been considering all the evidence to the contrary and how fresh in our minds the Iraq blunder is.

Where would this state come from? Israel shouldn't have to "GIVE" them land.

We're a Republic.

I don't have a taste for war but I'm not in Israel. Being surrounded by people who want to destroy you and have publicly stated their desire to do so would put anyone on edge. He doesn't have the luxury of hoping they won't attack. He has a responsibility to protect his people and waiting to see if they attack first isn't really his best option.

EDIT...

Max, if I was your neighbor and have told you many times I wanted to murder you and your family then you found out I was in the process of buying a gun, what would you do? Calling the police and leaving aren't options.

If I didn't really believe he'd use it and he's a rational actor despite the bluster and my family agrees and my best friend agrees I wouldn't kill him if that's what you're asking. Besides, I have hundreds of guns of my own and even if he hits that stockpile my friend has thousands surrounding him. And if I attack him his family will lash out at my friend who has family members stationed around the neighborhood. I'd give the people living in the doghouse in my yard their own plot of land and maybe that would ease tensions with all my neighbors who happen to be cousins of the guys in the doghouse. And if I really felt I had no other option but kill this guy, I'd tell my friend who bought me all the guns and who will have to pick up the fight with his family for me about it so he can at least withdraw people from around the neighborhood or have the chance to distance himself from the attack.

I think your analogy fails on several points.

(03-06-2012 06:04 PM)Max Power Wrote:  If I didn't really believe he'd use it and he's a rational actor despite the bluster and my family agrees and my best friend agrees I wouldn't kill him if that's what you're asking.

So what if you really believed he would use it? How would that change your response?

Quote:Besides, I have hundreds of guns of my own and even if he hits that stockpile my friend has thousands surrounding him.

You probably have close to half as many as the friend, per counts I've seen, and the friend's announced intentions are to draw down to a number smaller than yours--although his are mostly of a much larger caliber.

Quote:And if I attack him his family will lash out at my friend who has family members stationed around the neighborhood.

What if he doesn't have any family stationed around the neighborhood? Except maybe one relatively small but violent group of terrorists living next door that you're already having to fight now.

Quote:I'd give the people living in the doghouse in my yard their own plot of land and maybe that would ease tensions with all my neighbors who happen to be cousins of the guys in the doghouse.

What if you didn't have enough land to be able to give the people "living in the doghouse" a big enough plot for them to live, except by leaving yourself so small a plot that you couldn't live?
And what if the doghouse they're living in now is better than the way they've been treated by their brothers, or more properly their half-brothers, for the last 1000 years or so?
The neighbors are really half-brothers of the folks in the doghouse. They're cousins of YOU.

Quote:And if I really felt I had no other option but kill this guy, I'd tell my friend who bought me all the guns and who will have to pick up the fight with his family for me about it so he can at least withdraw people from around the neighborhood or have the chance to distance himself from the attack.

What if the people you are calling "his family" actually think of themselves more as your family than his? After all, you and they are cousins, whereas they share noting with him but a similar religion (not the same, but very similar, kind of like Roman Catholic versus Bible Church here). Actually they fear him because they believe he has territorial ambitions to wipe them out and re-establish his control over the whole neighborhood, just like he had many years ago. In fact, he even went to trouble of changing his name about 70 years ago for the express purpose of currying favor with some really nasty people who lived across town, that he thought would help him overrun his neighborhood.

I think I'm reading your analogy correctly and making the right inferences. I would be interested in discussing this further. You're a bright guy, if a bit hard-headed, and I think there is some good potential dialogue here.

For the record. I would not attack Iran. I would let Israel do it, at least as long as I believed that it was okay with the Arab world for Israel to do it. And as far as I have been able to determine, it is very okay with at least the leaders of the Arab world.

While you were pontificating I acquired a new firearm and am now planning my assault. In this hypothetical your family will he dead very soon. Happy?

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