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Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 09:59 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 06:28 AM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 01:00 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 12:39 AM)BigRedBear Wrote:  Looks like the anti-reproductive freedom advocates are directing their efforts in the wrong place.

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/stor...52641546/1

Ummm the second paragraph in your article...

Quote:Experts couldn't say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies.

I swear morons and stats should be treated like small children and guns... Stats are way to dangerous to let a moron operate without an adult around.

So bull, you agree then that birth control should be included in health plans?

Everything except the pill.

I'm all for the pill being included for women over the age of 18. Minors shouldn't be allowed to take the pill. CHILDREN should be taught to abstain until they're mature enough to understand the repercussions.

I also believe that abstinence should be taught, along with the repercussions of an unwanted pregnancy, and unwanted sexual disease. However hormones are hormones and I believe they should be taught the use of birth control that can prevent this. The catch is framing the tools (like using a condom) in a way that does not say that because you have the tool to prevent some of the repercussions that there is no need to abstain.
02-02-2012 05:27 PM
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BleedsHuskieRed Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 05:27 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:59 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 06:28 AM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 01:00 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Ummm the second paragraph in your article...


I swear morons and stats should be treated like small children and guns... Stats are way to dangerous to let a moron operate without an adult around.

So bull, you agree then that birth control should be included in health plans?

Everything except the pill.

I'm all for the pill being included for women over the age of 18. Minors shouldn't be allowed to take the pill. CHILDREN should be taught to abstain until they're mature enough to understand the repercussions.

I also believe that abstinence should be taught, along with the repercussions of an unwanted pregnancy, and unwanted sexual disease. However hormones are hormones and I believe they should be taught the use of birth control that can prevent this. The catch is framing the tools (like using a condom) in a way that does not say that because you have the tool to prevent some of the repercussions that there is no need to abstain.
I got a new circular saw for Christmas. Doesn't mean I went around the house cutting random bull**** around the house.
02-02-2012 05:28 PM
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RaiderATO Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 02:42 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Provide them with the tools & information they need to keep the damage to a minimum, so when they grow up and start making better decisions, they haven't already ruined their life or someone elses.

You seem to think having a child ruins one's life...

Or is it that you think having an abortion ruins one's life (while ending one)... hmmmm If this is the case I might need to re-check my stereotypes.
02-02-2012 05:54 PM
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BleedsHuskieRed Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 05:54 PM)Raider_ATO Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 02:42 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Provide them with the tools & information they need to keep the damage to a minimum, so when they grow up and start making better decisions, they haven't already ruined their life or someone elses.

You seem to think having a child ruins one's life...

Or is it that you think having an abortion ruins one's life (while ending one)... hmmmm If this is the case I might need to re-check my stereotypes.
Having a child before they are ready can ruin a life.
02-02-2012 07:15 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 04:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:15 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 06:28 AM)dcCid Wrote:  So bull, you agree then that birth control should be included in health plans?

Everything except the pill.

What's your concern about the pill?

That being said, yes I do understand your feelings toward those who oppose the gay agenda. And yes, I do understand your reaction is "It's the same damn thing!" I doubt I'll change anyones mind w/ this, but I see that they're similar, but not the same. The differences are important, and I've tried to base my perspective on the factual differences, not simply on a Biblical position that many don't give a hoot about anyway.

I believe human life begins at conception, the Pill does not stop conception. It's really not all that hard to wrap your head around.

Barriers, including things like the vas-clip (or snip if you want it done for good) are fine because you're not ending an active human life.
Ummm since when does the pill not stop conception? The pill (both combination and minipill) both prevent conception by either A. preventing ovulation or B. thickening cervical mucous to prevent sperm from reaching egg.


Lot of women on the pill get pregnant.

My understanding is the pill usually stops conception but millions of times a year it doesn't. Then chemical abortions happen. I think the baby ends up starving to death.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct my mistakes.

Edit: Quick search and it seems "breakthrough" ovulation happens far more than I thought. Even more on the newer combination and mini-pills.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2012 07:44 PM by Paul M.)
02-02-2012 07:24 PM
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HuskieFan84 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 05:54 PM)Raider_ATO Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 02:42 PM)HuskieFan84 Wrote:  Provide them with the tools & information they need to keep the damage to a minimum, so when they grow up and start making better decisions, they haven't already ruined their life or someone elses.

You seem to think having a child ruins one's life...

Or is it that you think having an abortion ruins one's life (while ending one)... hmmmm If this is the case I might need to re-check my stereotypes.

First of all, having a child before one is ready or an abortion at any time can easily ruin your life and / or the childs. An abortion could certainly crush someone emotionally.. and having a child before you're ready / able to take care of it can also be a disaster.

That being said, that wasn't even what I meant. I just meant teenage mistakes in general can ruin your life, drugs, sex, dangerous activities, hell, even bad driving, whatever it is you might get in to. Teenagers as a whole do some stupid ****, I think we can all agree on that.
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2012 07:49 PM by HuskieFan84.)
02-02-2012 07:46 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 11:15 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 06:28 AM)dcCid Wrote:  So bull, you agree then that birth control should be included in health plans?

Everything except the pill.

What's your concern about the pill?

For Cid, I realize that outsiders may not appreciate the differences, but not every Christian accepts the Roman Catholic ban on birth control. We're not all RC, regardless of what the entertainment media would show people. I believe it's a personal decision, and don't criticize anyone's personal preference.

However, I do find the RC (and others regardless of denomination)defense of this position to be lacking in any merit, and incredibly insulting. The people who I've heard champion this position are mostly pompous ******* busybodies who can't seem to understand how to mind their own business. I guess in short, I generally don't like them.

That being said, yes I do understand your feelings toward those who oppose the gay agenda. And yes, I do understand your reaction is "It's the same damn thing!" I doubt I'll change anyones mind w/ this, but I see that they're similar, but not the same. The differences are important, and I've tried to base my perspective on the factual differences, not simply on a Biblical position that many don't give a hoot about anyway.

I consider myself a Christian, although many probably would not. My issue is that I think most organized religions are more interested in power and control than actually saving souls. Was raised Roman Catholic, but my dad was Southern Baptist. He converted to RC when I was in elementary school. It was the first mixed marriage for both sides of the family, and while they took a lot of heat they loved each other (this was back in 1934, so was also a different era). I was raised in the Bible belt where RC’s were rare. I was shocked when I moved to Northern Virginia after college to find out there were so many other RC’s. So I learned at a young age that you would go to hell for different reasons for different faiths. I preferred RC because I would not go to hell for drinking or dancing, I liked seafood so not meat on Friday was ok, and I was not planning on getting divorced. I also had one sister convert to Mormonism, and another to some fundamental Christian church (although she dropped out after 10 years because she wanted her kids to go trick or treating). Anyhow this can be a different thread. But I do not know the different stances on birth control.

I think when you are talking about the RC defense of this position being birth control; I will tell you that most RC’s do not follow the churches position either. Most RC’s will use other tools other than the rhythm method. So while I disagree with the RC church on birth control, they are entitled to their opinion. However when it comes to health care, if there is a valid reason to make birth control a required coverage then tough S*it. Most of their employees in Public facilities, like Hospitals, are not RC. I do not think it is a requirement for the Church employees themselves. In my opinion someone being an employee of a Hospital with a catholic affiliation, is not an employee of the church itself.

I think this is one of the rare cases where I have read the term “Gay Agenda” without the word ‘Socialist” attached. In my first paragraph I reference that different faiths have different reasons that you will go to hell. As far as gay’s go this is one subject where there is general agreement among most Christian churches is that even JC himself hates gays. And people wonder why the suicide rate among gay teenagers is so high.

If I am interpreting your “ but I see that they're similar, but not the same “ comment correctly. I agree with you on the concept that they are different in the degree that it may be a sin, or even gross or disgusting and difficult to understand. I disagree with you in that regardless of if you think it is a sin, should the law prevent it. I tend to differentiate between Christians and the religious right when talking about this. In my opinion many Christians may think something is a sin, but the religious right wants laws to prevent anyone from doing it. This is where liberals talk about the separation of church and state. Should we make it illegal to drink, dance, get a divorce, eat meat on Ash Wednesday, allow to same sex people to marry? All will send you to hell based on some faith, but the law is not forcing you to do it.

There was a post on theory versus experience. Sometimes only experience will teach you. One of my sisters (the one who remained a devout Catholic) fell in love with a divorced guy. The got married in the Methodist Church because the Catholic Church refused. When she died the church also refused to allow the funeral mass to be held there because she was going to go to hell for marrying a divorcee. Now my oldest sister had died 4 years earlier. I was devastated from losing a second sister (in which only experience teaches you the pain), my parents however had lost 2 daughters and it was obvious that their pain was a million times worse. Faith was an important part of my mom’s life, so being told that the church refused to hold the funeral mass devastated her even more. She questioned her faith and her belief in god for the first time in her life. The priest did conduct the mass at the funeral home and the grave side service. Back at the house after the burial, I tore the priest a new one (literally, not physically in case you are trying to visualize) - I asked him to explain to me why it was ok to **** an altar boy in the church but it was not ok to bury someone in the church whose greatest sin was to marry a divorcee? To his credit he said he could not and apologized. I did realize he was just the messenger. He also spent a lot of time restoring my parent’s faith over the next few months.

Perhaps if divorce was illegal, or the law required an annulment instead of a divorce, then this would not have been an issue. But to this day whenever I hear a bible thumper on the religious right trying to legislate morality to save my soul, all I see is BS! However I have no issue whatsoever on what they personally believe is a sin or not.
Long post, but saw no other way to frame it.
02-02-2012 07:47 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 05:28 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  I got a new circular saw for Christmas. Doesn't mean I went around the house cutting random bull**** around the house.

Then what good was it if you were not going to use it right away?
02-02-2012 07:49 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 07:47 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:15 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 06:28 AM)dcCid Wrote:  So bull, you agree then that birth control should be included in health plans?

Everything except the pill.

What's your concern about the pill?

For Cid, I realize that outsiders may not appreciate the differences, but not every Christian accepts the Roman Catholic ban on birth control. We're not all RC, regardless of what the entertainment media would show people. I believe it's a personal decision, and don't criticize anyone's personal preference.

However, I do find the RC (and others regardless of denomination)defense of this position to be lacking in any merit, and incredibly insulting. The people who I've heard champion this position are mostly pompous ******* busybodies who can't seem to understand how to mind their own business. I guess in short, I generally don't like them.

That being said, yes I do understand your feelings toward those who oppose the gay agenda. And yes, I do understand your reaction is "It's the same damn thing!" I doubt I'll change anyones mind w/ this, but I see that they're similar, but not the same. The differences are important, and I've tried to base my perspective on the factual differences, not simply on a Biblical position that many don't give a hoot about anyway.

I consider myself a Christian, although many probably would not. My issue is that I think most organized religions are more interested in power and control than actually saving souls. Was raised Roman Catholic, but my dad was Southern Baptist. He converted to RC when I was in elementary school. It was the first mixed marriage for both sides of the family, and while they took a lot of heat they loved each other (this was back in 1934, so was also a different era). I was raised in the Bible belt where RC’s were rare. I was shocked when I moved to Northern Virginia after college to find out there were so many other RC’s. So I learned at a young age that you would go to hell for different reasons for different faiths. I preferred RC because I would not go to hell for drinking or dancing, I liked seafood so not meat on Friday was ok, and I was not planning on getting divorced. I also had one sister convert to Mormonism, and another to some fundamental Christian church (although she dropped out after 10 years because she wanted her kids to go trick or treating). Anyhow this can be a different thread. But I do not know the different stances on birth control.

I think when you are talking about the RC defense of this position being birth control; I will tell you that most RC’s do not follow the churches position either. Most RC’s will use other tools other than the rhythm method. So while I disagree with the RC church on birth control, they are entitled to their opinion. However when it comes to health care, if there is a valid reason to make birth control a required coverage then tough S*it. Most of their employees in Public facilities, like Hospitals, are not RC. I do not think it is a requirement for the Church employees themselves. In my opinion someone being an employee of a Hospital with a catholic affiliation, is not an employee of the church itself.

I think this is one of the rare cases where I have read the term “Gay Agenda” without the word ‘Socialist” attached. In my first paragraph I reference that different faiths have different reasons that you will go to hell. As far as gay’s go this is one subject where there is general agreement among most Christian churches is that even JC himself hates gays. And people wonder why the suicide rate among gay teenagers is so high.

If I am interpreting your “ but I see that they're similar, but not the same “ comment correctly. I agree with you on the concept that they are different in the degree that it may be a sin, or even gross or disgusting and difficult to understand. I disagree with you in that regardless of if you think it is a sin, should the law prevent it. I tend to differentiate between Christians and the religious right when talking about this. In my opinion many Christians may think something is a sin, but the religious right wants laws to prevent anyone from doing it. This is where liberals talk about the separation of church and state. Should we make it illegal to drink, dance, get a divorce, eat meat on Ash Wednesday, allow to same sex people to marry? All will send you to hell based on some faith, but the law is not forcing you to do it.

There was a post on theory versus experience. Sometimes only experience will teach you. One of my sisters (the one who remained a devout Catholic) fell in love with a divorced guy. The got married in the Methodist Church because the Catholic Church refused. When she died the church also refused to allow the funeral mass to be held there because she was going to go to hell for marrying a divorcee. Now my oldest sister had died 4 years earlier. I was devastated from losing a second sister (in which only experience teaches you the pain), my parents however had lost 2 daughters and it was obvious that their pain was a million times worse. Faith was an important part of my mom’s life, so being told that the church refused to hold the funeral mass devastated her even more. She questioned her faith and her belief in god for the first time in her life. The priest did conduct the mass at the funeral home and the grave side service. Back at the house after the burial, I tore the priest a new one (literally, not physically in case you are trying to visualize) - I asked him to explain to me why it was ok to **** an altar boy in the church but it was not ok to bury someone in the church whose greatest sin was to marry a divorcee? To his credit he said he could not and apologized. I did realize he was just the messenger. He also spent a lot of time restoring my parent’s faith over the next few months.

Perhaps if divorce was illegal, or the law required an annulment instead of a divorce, then this would not have been an issue. But to this day whenever I hear a bible thumper on the religious right trying to legislate morality to save my soul, all I see is BS! However I have no issue whatsoever on what they personally believe is a sin or not.
Long post, but saw no other way to frame it.

Cliff notes please...
02-02-2012 07:53 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 07:53 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Cliff notes please...

Organized religion is all about money, power and control, not about saving souls.

If you consolidate all the different Christian faiths, we are all going to hell for some reason or another.

If you want to thump your bible, thump it up your ass, not in my face.
02-02-2012 08:43 PM
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HuskieFan84 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 08:43 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 07:53 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Cliff notes please...

Organized religion is all about money, power and control, not about saving souls.

If you consolidate all the different Christian faiths, we are all going to hell for some reason or another.

If you want to thump your bible, thump it up your ass, not in my face.

I'm a fan of this guy.
02-02-2012 08:44 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 08:43 PM)dcCid Wrote:  [quote='I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou' pid='7501645' dateline='1328230407']

Cliff notes please...

Quote:Organized religion is all about money, power and control, not about saving souls.

Not the religion...some/few of its leaders. The same could be said about Government.

Quote:If you consolidate all the different Christian faiths, we are all going to hell for some reason or another.

Consolidate...? I think they're mutually exclusive. And I'm pretty sure they all provide a path to salvation if you choose it.

Quote:If you want to thump your bible, thump it up your ass, not in my face.

A central tenant of organized religion is to spread their respective messages. Though it should be done under the appropriate circumstances as not to offend anyone or come off as forceful.
02-02-2012 08:48 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 08:48 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 08:43 PM)dcCid Wrote:  [quote='I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou' pid='7501645' dateline='1328230407']

Cliff notes please...

Quote:Organized religion is all about money, power and control, not about saving souls.

Not the religion...some/few of its leaders. The same could be said about Government.

Quote:If you consolidate all the different Christian faiths, we are all going to hell for some reason or another.

Consolidate...? I think they're mutually exclusive. And I'm pretty sure they all provide a path to salvation if you choose it.

Quote:If you want to thump your bible, thump it up your ass, not in my face.

A central tenant of organized religion is to spread their respective messages. Though it should be done under the appropriate circumstances as not to offend anyone or come off as forceful.

I'm cool with churches spreading their messages, just not trying to legislate them.
02-02-2012 08:56 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 08:56 PM)dcCid Wrote:  I'm cool with churches spreading their messages, just not trying to legislate them.

More intolerance from the "tolerant".

"I'm free to try and legislate abortion, gay marriage, any number of things many others may find despicable, horrible, disgusting, but don't you dare try to counter me with your good, wholesome, harmless values. Accept, celebrate, legitimize my perversions with open arms while I take a dump on your normalcy... or I'll call you names."
02-02-2012 09:59 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 07:24 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 04:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:15 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Everything except the pill.

What's your concern about the pill?

That being said, yes I do understand your feelings toward those who oppose the gay agenda. And yes, I do understand your reaction is "It's the same damn thing!" I doubt I'll change anyones mind w/ this, but I see that they're similar, but not the same. The differences are important, and I've tried to base my perspective on the factual differences, not simply on a Biblical position that many don't give a hoot about anyway.

I believe human life begins at conception, the Pill does not stop conception. It's really not all that hard to wrap your head around.

Barriers, including things like the vas-clip (or snip if you want it done for good) are fine because you're not ending an active human life.
Ummm since when does the pill not stop conception? The pill (both combination and minipill) both prevent conception by either A. preventing ovulation or B. thickening cervical mucous to prevent sperm from reaching egg.


Lot of women on the pill get pregnant.

My understanding is the pill usually stops conception but millions of times a year it doesn't. Then chemical abortions happen. I think the baby ends up starving to death.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct my mistakes.

Edit: Quick search and it seems "breakthrough" ovulation happens far more than I thought. Even more on the newer combination and mini-pills.
OK so condoms break, pull and pray happens a second too late, yes contraception fails...but why is the pill different than the other two? Why is he opposed to the pill but not the others. The goal of all contraception is to prevent pregnancy. Plan B is not the same, Plan B prevents implantation. Abortion, well we all know what that does. Why is Bull in Exile opposed to the pill? Is he misinformed?
02-02-2012 11:50 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-02-2012 11:50 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 07:24 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 04:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:15 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  What's your concern about the pill?

That being said, yes I do understand your feelings toward those who oppose the gay agenda. And yes, I do understand your reaction is "It's the same damn thing!" I doubt I'll change anyones mind w/ this, but I see that they're similar, but not the same. The differences are important, and I've tried to base my perspective on the factual differences, not simply on a Biblical position that many don't give a hoot about anyway.

I believe human life begins at conception, the Pill does not stop conception. It's really not all that hard to wrap your head around.

Barriers, including things like the vas-clip (or snip if you want it done for good) are fine because you're not ending an active human life.
Ummm since when does the pill not stop conception? The pill (both combination and minipill) both prevent conception by either A. preventing ovulation or B. thickening cervical mucous to prevent sperm from reaching egg.


Lot of women on the pill get pregnant.

My understanding is the pill usually stops conception but millions of times a year it doesn't. Then chemical abortions happen. I think the baby ends up starving to death.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct my mistakes.

Edit: Quick search and it seems "breakthrough" ovulation happens far more than I thought. Even more on the newer combination and mini-pills.
OK so condoms break, pull and pray happens a second too late, yes contraception fails...but why is the pill different than the other two? Why is he opposed to the pill but not the others. The goal of all contraception is to prevent pregnancy. Plan B is not the same, Plan B prevents implantation. Abortion, well we all know what that does. Why is Bull in Exile opposed to the pill? Is he misinformed?

He said he believes life begins at conception. He's against abortion. Condom fails, you're having a baby. Pull to late, you're having a baby. Rely on the pill, in all likelihood you're having spontaneous abortions.
02-03-2012 07:50 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-03-2012 07:50 AM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:50 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 07:24 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 04:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:31 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  I believe human life begins at conception, the Pill does not stop conception. It's really not all that hard to wrap your head around.

Barriers, including things like the vas-clip (or snip if you want it done for good) are fine because you're not ending an active human life.
Ummm since when does the pill not stop conception? The pill (both combination and minipill) both prevent conception by either A. preventing ovulation or B. thickening cervical mucous to prevent sperm from reaching egg.


Lot of women on the pill get pregnant.

My understanding is the pill usually stops conception but millions of times a year it doesn't. Then chemical abortions happen. I think the baby ends up starving to death.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct my mistakes.

Edit: Quick search and it seems "breakthrough" ovulation happens far more than I thought. Even more on the newer combination and mini-pills.
OK so condoms break, pull and pray happens a second too late, yes contraception fails...but why is the pill different than the other two? Why is he opposed to the pill but not the others. The goal of all contraception is to prevent pregnancy. Plan B is not the same, Plan B prevents implantation. Abortion, well we all know what that does. Why is Bull in Exile opposed to the pill? Is he misinformed?

He said he believes life begins at conception. He's against abortion. Condom fails, you're having a baby. Pull to late, you're having a baby. Rely on the pill, in all likelihood you're having spontaneous abortions.
I don't get why is OK with the other ones though. The pill does not cause abortions. I'm confused as to why he is against the pill. I want him to answer that.
02-04-2012 09:36 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-04-2012 09:36 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-03-2012 07:50 AM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:50 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 07:24 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 04:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  Ummm since when does the pill not stop conception? The pill (both combination and minipill) both prevent conception by either A. preventing ovulation or B. thickening cervical mucous to prevent sperm from reaching egg.


Lot of women on the pill get pregnant.

My understanding is the pill usually stops conception but millions of times a year it doesn't. Then chemical abortions happen. I think the baby ends up starving to death.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct my mistakes.

Edit: Quick search and it seems "breakthrough" ovulation happens far more than I thought. Even more on the newer combination and mini-pills.
OK so condoms break, pull and pray happens a second too late, yes contraception fails...but why is the pill different than the other two? Why is he opposed to the pill but not the others. The goal of all contraception is to prevent pregnancy. Plan B is not the same, Plan B prevents implantation. Abortion, well we all know what that does. Why is Bull in Exile opposed to the pill? Is he misinformed?

He said he believes life begins at conception. He's against abortion. Condom fails, you're having a baby. Pull to late, you're having a baby. Rely on the pill, in all likelihood you're having spontaneous abortions.
I don't get why is OK with the other ones though. The pill does not cause abortions. I'm confused as to why he is against the pill. I want him to answer that.

I don't want to speak for Bull and I'm not, but as I said already, it does cause abortions.

Quote:'Conception' refers to the moment at which the sperm penetrates and fertilizes the ovum to form a viable zygote. It does not refer to the process of implantation of the newly created human embryo, which is a separate event, occurring about 7-8 day’s after conception. A woman is pregnant because conception has occurred, not because implantation has occurred.

At the precise and unique moment of conception, a woman is 'pregnant' with "a new individual ".

To stop conception occurring, that is, to stop sperm and ovum joining, is contraception. Condoms, diaphragms, spermicides, vasectomy and tubal ligation are accurately described as methods of contraception. Obviously any drug or device used after conception has occurred cannot be termed a contraceptive.

The correct term to describe any interference with the pregnancy after conception has occurred is ‘abortifacient’. This is the precise biological description for any drug or device that acts to end a pregnancy once it has begun at conception.

Obviously many people object to abortifacient drugs because they can cause a loss of human life. Not so many people object to methods of contraception (condoms, diaphrams etc), because these methods prevent new human life being created.*

The pill damages the womb and when/if conception occurs, 7 or 8 days later the baby can't attach to it. It can't get nutrients and starves to death. An abortion.

*The above is a little off in that obviously you can get pregnant if a condom fails. But you know you're pregnant. You have to consciously choose abortion. The condom itself, having failed, can't cause one. The pill does. Also, IUD's don't stop conception. They work by changing the inner lining of a woman’s uterus so that the newly conceived child cannot implant in the womb also.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2012 11:15 PM by Paul M.)
02-04-2012 10:36 PM
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BleedsHuskieRed Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-04-2012 10:36 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-04-2012 09:36 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-03-2012 07:50 AM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 11:50 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  
(02-02-2012 07:24 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Lot of women on the pill get pregnant.

My understanding is the pill usually stops conception but millions of times a year it doesn't. Then chemical abortions happen. I think the baby ends up starving to death.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct my mistakes.

Edit: Quick search and it seems "breakthrough" ovulation happens far more than I thought. Even more on the newer combination and mini-pills.
OK so condoms break, pull and pray happens a second too late, yes contraception fails...but why is the pill different than the other two? Why is he opposed to the pill but not the others. The goal of all contraception is to prevent pregnancy. Plan B is not the same, Plan B prevents implantation. Abortion, well we all know what that does. Why is Bull in Exile opposed to the pill? Is he misinformed?

He said he believes life begins at conception. He's against abortion. Condom fails, you're having a baby. Pull to late, you're having a baby. Rely on the pill, in all likelihood you're having spontaneous abortions.
I don't get why is OK with the other ones though. The pill does not cause abortions. I'm confused as to why he is against the pill. I want him to answer that.

I don't want to speak for Bull and I'm not, but as I said already, it does cause abortions.

Quote:'Conception' refers to the moment at which the sperm penetrates and fertilizes the ovum to form a viable zygote. It does not refer to the process of implantation of the newly created human embryo, which is a separate event, occurring about 7-8 day’s after conception. A woman is pregnant because conception has occurred, not because implantation has occurred.

At the precise and unique moment of conception, a woman is 'pregnant' with "a new individual ".

To stop conception occurring, that is, to stop sperm and ovum joining, is contraception. Condoms, diaphragms, spermicides, vasectomy and tubal ligation are accurately described as methods of contraception. Obviously any drug or device used after conception has occurred cannot be termed a contraceptive.

The correct term to describe any interference with the pregnancy after conception has occurred is ‘abortifacient’. This is the precise biological description for any drug or device that acts to end a pregnancy once it has begun at conception.

Obviously many people object to abortifacient drugs because they can cause a loss of human life. Not so many people object to methods of contraception (condoms, diaphrams etc), because these methods prevent new human life being created.*

The pill damages the womb and when/if conception occurs, 7 or 8 days later the baby can't attach to it. It can't get nutrients and starves to death. An abortion.

*The above is a little off in that obviously you can get pregnant if a condom fails. But you know you're pregnant. You have to consciously choose abortion. The condom itself, having failed, can't cause one. The pill does. Also, IUD's don't stop conception. They work by changing the inner lining of a woman’s uterus so that the newly conceived child cannot implant in the womb also.
I have never heard of the pill causing abortion and the only place I see that is pro life websites now that I looked it up. However if his view is that life begins at conception and he thinks that it might prevent implantation, then there isn't much that can be done for him.
02-05-2012 10:21 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Abortion rates LOWER where legalized
(02-04-2012 09:36 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  I don't get why is OK with the other ones though. The pill does not cause abortions. I'm confused as to why he is against the pill. I want him to answer that.

If you can't follow the logic you're being intentionally obtuse

The pill does *not* prevent conception, conception itself is rather common in women taking the pill (and using IUD). So *if* you believe in life at conception then you're talking about a method of birth control which kills a living person as a course of the method itself.

Condoms, when they work, prevent conception. getting snipped, when it works, prevent conceptions.

The Pill, when it works seldom actually prevents conception. Rather the pill usually functions by preventing implantation.
02-05-2012 10:38 AM
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