(02-02-2012 11:15 AM)DrTorch Wrote: (02-02-2012 09:56 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote: (02-02-2012 06:28 AM)dcCid Wrote: So bull, you agree then that birth control should be included in health plans?
Everything except the pill.
What's your concern about the pill?
For Cid, I realize that outsiders may not appreciate the differences, but not every Christian accepts the Roman Catholic ban on birth control. We're not all RC, regardless of what the entertainment media would show people. I believe it's a personal decision, and don't criticize anyone's personal preference.
However, I do find the RC (and others regardless of denomination)defense of this position to be lacking in any merit, and incredibly insulting. The people who I've heard champion this position are mostly pompous ******* busybodies who can't seem to understand how to mind their own business. I guess in short, I generally don't like them.
That being said, yes I do understand your feelings toward those who oppose the gay agenda. And yes, I do understand your reaction is "It's the same damn thing!" I doubt I'll change anyones mind w/ this, but I see that they're similar, but not the same. The differences are important, and I've tried to base my perspective on the factual differences, not simply on a Biblical position that many don't give a hoot about anyway.
I consider myself a Christian, although many probably would not. My issue is that I think most organized religions are more interested in power and control than actually saving souls. Was raised Roman Catholic, but my dad was Southern Baptist. He converted to RC when I was in elementary school. It was the first mixed marriage for both sides of the family, and while they took a lot of heat they loved each other (this was back in 1934, so was also a different era). I was raised in the Bible belt where RC’s were rare. I was shocked when I moved to Northern Virginia after college to find out there were so many other RC’s. So I learned at a young age that you would go to hell for different reasons for different faiths. I preferred RC because I would not go to hell for drinking or dancing, I liked seafood so not meat on Friday was ok, and I was not planning on getting divorced. I also had one sister convert to Mormonism, and another to some fundamental Christian church (although she dropped out after 10 years because she wanted her kids to go trick or treating). Anyhow this can be a different thread. But I do not know the different stances on birth control.
I think when you are talking about the RC defense of this position being birth control; I will tell you that most RC’s do not follow the churches position either. Most RC’s will use other tools other than the rhythm method. So while I disagree with the RC church on birth control, they are entitled to their opinion. However when it comes to health care, if there is a valid reason to make birth control a required coverage then tough S*it. Most of their employees in Public facilities, like Hospitals, are not RC. I do not think it is a requirement for the Church employees themselves. In my opinion someone being an employee of a Hospital with a catholic affiliation, is not an employee of the church itself.
I think this is one of the rare cases where I have read the term “Gay Agenda” without the word ‘Socialist” attached. In my first paragraph I reference that different faiths have different reasons that you will go to hell. As far as gay’s go this is one subject where there is general agreement among most Christian churches is that even JC himself hates gays. And people wonder why the suicide rate among gay teenagers is so high.
If I am interpreting your “ but I see that they're similar, but not the same “ comment correctly. I agree with you on the concept that they are different in the degree that it may be a sin, or even gross or disgusting and difficult to understand. I disagree with you in that regardless of if you think it is a sin, should the law prevent it. I tend to differentiate between Christians and the religious right when talking about this. In my opinion many Christians may think something is a sin, but the religious right wants laws to prevent anyone from doing it. This is where liberals talk about the separation of church and state. Should we make it illegal to drink, dance, get a divorce, eat meat on Ash Wednesday, allow to same sex people to marry? All will send you to hell based on some faith, but the law is not forcing you to do it.
There was a post on theory versus experience. Sometimes only experience will teach you. One of my sisters (the one who remained a devout Catholic) fell in love with a divorced guy. The got married in the Methodist Church because the Catholic Church refused. When she died the church also refused to allow the funeral mass to be held there because she was going to go to hell for marrying a divorcee. Now my oldest sister had died 4 years earlier. I was devastated from losing a second sister (in which only experience teaches you the pain), my parents however had lost 2 daughters and it was obvious that their pain was a million times worse. Faith was an important part of my mom’s life, so being told that the church refused to hold the funeral mass devastated her even more. She questioned her faith and her belief in god for the first time in her life. The priest did conduct the mass at the funeral home and the grave side service. Back at the house after the burial, I tore the priest a new one (literally, not physically in case you are trying to visualize) - I asked him to explain to me why it was ok to **** an altar boy in the church but it was not ok to bury someone in the church whose greatest sin was to marry a divorcee? To his credit he said he could not and apologized. I did realize he was just the messenger. He also spent a lot of time restoring my parent’s faith over the next few months.
Perhaps if divorce was illegal, or the law required an annulment instead of a divorce, then this would not have been an issue. But to this day whenever I hear a bible thumper on the religious right trying to legislate morality to save my soul, all I see is BS! However I have no issue whatsoever on what they personally believe is a sin or not.
Long post, but saw no other way to frame it.