(11-14-2010 02:48 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  You're not living in the real world when you ignore the fact that ECU has not established a consistent record of success that would inspire confidence from the Big East about its chances to succeed at the next level.

You guys repeatedly ask why the Big East doesn't look favorably on your candidacy, but when you get an answer you don't like, you can't accept it. There is a perception from those outside NC whether you like it or not.

Ha! I'm sorry, do you realize how funny this is coming from a UCONN fan? I mean really...do you understand just how funny it is? WTF did UCONN ever do to deserve a BCS spot other than having a basketball team in the Big East? It's absolutely hilarious for a UCONN fan to talk this way about a program like ECU. UCONN!

(11-14-2010 02:48 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 05:32 PM)oasispirate Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 04:27 PM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 04:10 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 04:08 PM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  " . . . a basketball state that really wants a football team to root for."

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? I'm not getting your point.

His point is that it's a basketball state that desperately wants football success. Kentucky is a perfect example. It's a basketball state that saw football taking off so they wanted at least one football program to be a success and represent their state so once Kentucky and Louisville started finding success the football fanbase grew.

If they're truly a basketball state, then they don't desperately want football.

The reason that ECU is in a difficult position in selling themselves to the Big East is that both UNC & NC State draw more fans than they do. Unless you believe that an ECU program that thrives in the BE is going to draw fans away from the other 2 major public universities in the state, you're going to see a ceiling on their market potential that isn't favorable for their candidacy.

And we can't simply ignore the fact that Wake Forest, Duke, & Appalachian State all compete in the same state. We can't act as if they don't exist. Those 3 combined for over 80,000 fans per game last year. They represent a significant drain on fan interest in the same state.

When a state of 9 million already has 4 BCS programs in the same state & one of the top FCS programs in that same state as well, they're saturated with college football programs & it's not the ideal location to sign on one more program. The level of saturation may be the very reason why UNC & State haven't been able to break through & be more successful than they have.

It's not as if those two haven't been trying. The idea that another school can be successful where UNC & State haven't been simply because that other school operates on a different campus defies logic. There's nothing special about ECU that puts them in a unique position to succeed where others have failed. They've achieved some success in CUSA competing against other schools like themselves, but that's a whole different ball game from competing at the next level.

Don't buy those attendance stats you posted, Duke's football attendance is horrible and WF's isn't much better. When it comes to football in the state of NC, ECU is the CLEARCUT #3 behind UNC and NCSU in terms of interest.

If you have different numbers for those 3 schools, please post them. You look foolish & in denial when you dispute a basic fact. Facts are not arguable.

No one disputes that ECU is #3 but being #3 in your own state is not exactly a ringing endorsement - especially when that state has #4 & #5 also competing at the BCS level + one of the most successful FCS programs in the country. That's a crowded field.

You're not living in the real world when you ignore the fact that ECU has not established a consistent record of success that would inspire confidence from the Big East about its chances to succeed at the next level.

You guys repeatedly ask why the Big East doesn't look favorably on your candidacy, but when you get an answer you don't like, you can't accept it. There is a perception from those outside NC whether you like it or not.

I would point out that the entire state of North Carolina one of the fastest growing in the country has a record of mediocrity in Football. ECU is trying to break out of that mold because we are a Football first School. At ECU's current growth rate and that of the Eastern portion of the State it is not a stretch to say we could easily average 60k fans in our stadium every Saturday and I think that positions us just fine in the Big East. As for TV markets it just comes down to how many subscribers to a Big East Network would be added in NC, Tidewater and other portions of VA if ECU joined the Big East. If the numbers pencil then it makes since to add us if they do not pencil then we are history.

If ECU is ever in a AQ BCS Conference as far as splitting recruits in our state it will come down to UNC, NCST and ECU. Football is an after thought at Wake and Duke but every once in a while they put a good team on the field if they have the right coach. If ASU moves up they will take recruits from both Wake and Duke out West as would Charlotte if they get rolling. No reason why a large state like NC can't support that much Football and we also recruit VA a lot which only has two BCS teams but a large population. End of the day every school has to battle to get recruits. The highest draft pick on our team going into next year will be Dwayne Harris from Stone Mountain GA. Chris Johnson was from Orlando. You put a good team on the field with AQ BCS access and you will get the players. We get our fair share without AQ BCS access have won 6 out of the last 10 games against AQ BCS neighbor NCST and 5 out of last 7 against AQ BCS neighbor South Carolina. Give us a level playing field and we will take off, so would UCF IMHO.

(11-13-2010 01:01 PM)whitey Wrote:  If ECU can bring all of NC......

ECU would already be in the SEC.

(11-14-2010 07:29 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:22 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:10 AM)paratroopirate Wrote:  You hit the nail on the head....You cant swing a dead cat in North or South Carolina without smashing a dang Northern Transplant in the face. Most of these northern transplant being from the Rutgers, Syracuse and Penn markets. The TV market bit is a cop out, period. If the BE presidents and coaches cant see that fact then they are blind to the obvious. Funny thing is, it is in the south where a large percentage of BE, Big 10 grads retire.

Oh come on...You know that is BS. When the Canes play the Devils at home there are hardly any NJ fans there.

I hope you are being sarcastic. Devils, Rangers, Flyers and Sabres draw the biggest visiting crowds outside of the Caps who bus people down.

Come on...There are no yankees in NC.:secret:

(11-14-2010 02:41 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 05:29 PM)whitey Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 04:44 PM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 04:36 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  

Quote:If they're truly a basketball state, then they don't desperately want football.

Obviously you're wrong because Louisville, Kentucky, North Carolina, NC State, and East Carolina pumped huge money into their football programs in hopes of grabbing a fanbase that wanted to root for football. And they were proven right with the huge crowds these schools are suddenly getting. It's possible to be a one sport state/town but want something else. Cincinnati is a baseball town but they desperately wanted a quality NFL football team to root for again. So you're telling me that a baseball town like Cincinnati doesn't desperately want to have football as well?

Nope. I said nothing about Cincinnati.

What I'm telling you is that the state is saturated with too many programs all competing for the state's fans. You want to have 5 BCS programs in a state half the size of Florida & 40% the size of Texas - both of which have only 4 BCS programs despite being football crazy states. It ain't going to happen & no one at the Big East is going to invest in a program in that state that hasn't yet proven that it can compete at this level. If ECU had the level of success of TCU, Utah, Boise State, or Louisville (pre-BE), it would be a different story.

Before you state what you don't know. CC is right. NC wants a to root for a successful FB team. NCst & Unc-ch are basketball schools & for years never could get the FB going. We have added 7000 seat & they're sold the minute they were put in. If WE get AQ & we would take the FB fans over night. You would be surprised at how many ppl in this State hates NCst & Unc but they are from up north or they are military & have their home school they pull for. Do you know we do control eastern NC in football especially the military population. We have 2 million ppl within 1 1/2 hrs from us, equal to most cities. Duke & Wake can't even get their fans to go to a FB game. ECU sale the third most FB merchandise in the State. Also this opens up recruiting for BE teams in a pretty strong recruiting base, Va, NC & northern SC. Trust me there are more pluses than minuse, choosing us.

Duke & wake combined for 58,000 fans last year. It's simply wrong to say nobody goes to their games. Those are college fans that aren't available to you guys.

You simply haven't addressed the basic question. Why will you guys succeed at the BCS level when UNC & State have not?

Call them basketball schools if you want but that doesn't mean that they're not competing in football, that they don't have resources, & that they don't have facilities. Plenty of basketball schools also succeed in football. There's no rule that a school can't be successful in both.

Well I can't post facts as to Duke or WF actual attendance. They are going to report tickets sold, they are also not going to show a record of how much people are paying per ticket. What I do know is you can go to either location and see plenty of empty seats every Saturday.

I think what you are missing in regard to markets, is ACC fans watch our games too. NCSU fans love to hate us and watch us, same for UNC. I feel confident in saying more people give a **** about ECU football than any other program on the table.

Your bashing NCSU and UNC's lack of success. Both of those schools have had as much success over the last 20 years than any Big East program not named WVU. I would bet UNC has generated more NFL talent than any current school in the Big East during that span.

As to ECU's lack of consistency
91 11-1
94 7-5
95 9-3
96 8-3
98 6-5
99 9-3
00 8-4
01 6-6
06 7-6
07 8-5
08 9-5
09 9-5
10 6-4 and counting

If we played Boise St's, UCFs, etc schedule non conference schedule we would be coming off 3 seasons of 10+ wins or more.

The reason that ECU is in a difficult position in selling themselves to the Big East is that both UNC & NC State draw more fans than they do. Unless you believe that an ECU program that thrives in the BE is going to draw fans away from the other 2 major public universities in the state, you're going to see a ceiling on their market potential that isn't favorable for their candidacy.
Bill, with regards to the ceiling that you're referring to, what is the standard by which you judge this? If you're wanting a program with SEC or Big 10-type market share, that's a pipe dream.

Currently, the standard of success in the Big East is West Virginia and they average +/- 57,800 per game. They're the state flagship university and the largest draw. We average close to 49,800 per game; just 8,000 shy of WVU. We'd be fourth in the Big East in attendance; behind WV, Louisville and Pittsburgh. I'd venture to say we'll reach that "ceiling" a whole lot faster than UCONN, which is a basketball school. Do you think ya'll will ever reach your market potential in your lifetime? You average 38,500 per game as the state flagship university.

(11-14-2010 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 07:29 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:22 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:10 AM)paratroopirate Wrote:  You hit the nail on the head....You cant swing a dead cat in North or South Carolina without smashing a dang Northern Transplant in the face. Most of these northern transplant being from the Rutgers, Syracuse and Penn markets. The TV market bit is a cop out, period. If the BE presidents and coaches cant see that fact then they are blind to the obvious. Funny thing is, it is in the south where a large percentage of BE, Big 10 grads retire.

Oh come on...You know that is BS. When the Canes play the Devils at home there are hardly any NJ fans there.

I hope you are being sarcastic. Devils, Rangers, Flyers and Sabres draw the biggest visiting crowds outside of the Caps who bus people down.

Come on...There are no yankees in NC.:secret:

Cary, NC acronym

Containment
Area of
Relocated
Yankees

Trust me. I live in Cary which is right next to Raleigh and it is a city of Yankees. This has been the running joke since I moved to the Triangle in 1998. 90% of the city is from up North. I just had a neighbor and his family move next door to me a couple of months ago. They are from Boston. There are a ton of BE alumni in the Triangle. Isn't that part of the market the BE should want to tap into also?

Pretty sure Navy thoroughly proved they run the tidewater hahaha

(11-14-2010 01:55 PM)Inigo Wrote:  You bring up MASN. Unless something has changed recently, MASN is not even carried by Time Warner Cable in North Carolina. There has been a dispute going on for years with Time Warner wanting to relegate it to a sports tier and MASN wanting to be on basic analog.

As I explained in my last response to Buck above, which I was writing probably at the time you were composing this, was Time Warner's argument was MASN's primary content was Orioles and Nationals baseball, something they felt North Carolinians had no strong to desire to watch.

Quote:If MASN who shows some ECU games along with a bunch of other teams can't even get on the dominant cable provider in North Carolina now, what make people think that a Big East Network would automatically be on a basic package on that same cable provider just because ECU is involved?

Never said ECU would deliver the state of North Carolina to a BEN. But, again, as I mentioned in my response to Buck, adding ECU games apparently did succeed in at least contributing to some additional coverage for MASN in both southern Va. and areas in eastern Carolina, Raleigh/Durham and the counties above Charlotte (Charlotte itself was already carrying MASN prior to the ECU deal).

However, as small of an impact as ECU football may have had on MASN cracking the state of North Carolina and southern Virginia, it is still more than the impact Nova or Temple football has on the Philly DMA.

My stance on ECU remains as I said in the very post you responded to:

I think ECU fans overestimate their market "reach" but there are posters who vastly underestimate it as well.

My stance on Nova and Temple football remains: There are valid reasons why one or the other might be mentioned now at this juncture of the process, but delivering the Philly DMA for BE football is not one of them.

Cheers,
Neil

(11-14-2010 01:19 PM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 07:29 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:22 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:10 AM)paratroopirate Wrote:  You hit the nail on the head....You cant swing a dead cat in North or South Carolina without smashing a dang Northern Transplant in the face. Most of these northern transplant being from the Rutgers, Syracuse and Penn markets. The TV market bit is a cop out, period. If the BE presidents and coaches cant see that fact then they are blind to the obvious. Funny thing is, it is in the south where a large percentage of BE, Big 10 grads retire.

Oh come on...You know that is BS. When the Canes play the Devils at home there are hardly any NJ fans there.

I hope you are being sarcastic. Devils, Rangers, Flyers and Sabres draw the biggest visiting crowds outside of the Caps who bus people down.

Come on...There are no yankees in NC.:secret:

Cary, NC acronym

Containment
Area of
Relocated
Yankees

Trust me. I live in Cary which is right next to Raleigh and it is a city of Yankees. This has been the running joke since I moved to the Triangle in 1998. 90% of the city is from up North. I just had a neighbor and his family move next door to me a couple of months ago. They are from Boston. There are a ton of BE alumni in the Triangle. Isn't that part of the market the BE should want to tap into also?

He knows... indeed, he IS being sarcastic.

(11-13-2010 01:01 PM)whitey Wrote:  Tidewater (Va) and Northern SC TVs to the BEN. Would we be worth having us in the BE?

very few schools can bring entire markets

(11-14-2010 03:24 PM)Theodoresdaddy Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 01:01 PM)whitey Wrote:  Tidewater (Va) and Northern SC TVs to the BEN. Would we be worth having us in the BE?

very few schools can bring entire markets

There are a few, but they already play in the SEC, Big Ten, or Big 12.

Why would the Big East be smart enough to bring in ECU who not having done much averages 50,000 fans a game in football. Obviously the dude that says NC is too saturated for football is a nut job. To me people like him want to destroy the Big East by bringing in a team from a FOOTBALL SATURATED state (TCU-Houston) or a team that averages 8,000 a game (NOVA)...Some fans are smart enough to realize, take the schools closest to your footprint that already have SOLID football fan bases. ECU, Marshall and UCF are IMO the best canadites. Just like in the past Louisville, Cincinnati and USF were the best choice because they were in the footprint and they have the fan base. Now its time to show the love to the ones that deserve to be welcomed to the BEAST.

I honestly believe that if they didn't have the stigma of a directional school name and instead was something more traditional like "North Carolina Tech" then they would already be BCS.

(11-13-2010 02:04 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  Can someone close to the situation explain why the Big East doesn't have any interest in ECU because I can't find anyone that can explain why ECU is persona non grata in the Big East's eyes other then their basketball progam

I don't think it is that there is no interest. It is just possible that when you evaluate expansion candidates, they tend to fall in the 2/3 range of candidates, behind TCU, and split with UCF. Then there is the Villanova situation.

(11-14-2010 02:41 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  You simply haven't addressed the basic question. Why will you guys succeed at the BCS level when UNC & State have not?

I am not sure you can say neither team has succeeded at football. Let's put it this way, let's say forwhatever reason either wanted to join the BE as a football only team, meaning we woudl only evaluate their football value and not even include the basketball issues (and for the sake of arguments the NCAA allowed it, both schools would instantly be at the top of our wish list. So it is hard to say they are not successful.

(11-14-2010 02:43 PM)omnicarrier Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 01:55 PM)Inigo Wrote:  You bring up MASN. Unless something has changed recently, MASN is not even carried by Time Warner Cable in North Carolina. There has been a dispute going on for years with Time Warner wanting to relegate it to a sports tier and MASN wanting to be on basic analog.

As I explained in my last response to Buck above, which I was writing probably at the time you were composing this, was Time Warner's argument was MASN's primary content was Orioles and Nationals baseball, something they felt North Carolinians had no strong to desire to watch.

To add to what Omni said, when I lived in Baltimore (this was before the Nationals showed up), Washington, Virginia, and North Carolina was in an area that Peter Angelos (Orioles' owner) considered ALL as part of his home market. I would guess they tried to force MASN on basic cable at the same rate as Baltimore and DC areas residents pay, which is over $2.00 per subscriber. So for better or worse, the comparison for what ECU may be able to do with a potential BEN or add in regards to value to a national TV contract, should not be compared to MASN's ability to get onto basic cable on TMC at $2 per subscriber, when they only carry a few games of local interest.

(11-14-2010 03:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(11-13-2010 02:04 PM)CatsClaw Wrote:  Can someone close to the situation explain why the Big East doesn't have any interest in ECU because I can't find anyone that can explain why ECU is persona non grata in the Big East's eyes other then their basketball progam

I don't think it is that there is no interest. It is just possible that when you evaluate expansion candidates, they tend to fall in the 2/3 range of candidates, behind TCU, and split with UCF. Then there is the Villanova situation.

I think this is the correct view. It's not necessarily that there's anything wrong with ECU and every single thing that the Pirate fans have stated here about their attendance and fan base might very well be true. To me, it appears that the things that ECU is strong at are simply not what the BE is looking for (and ECU's AD has said as much) or at least are not clearly dominant over all of the other expansion candidates. So, the BE sees TCU at one tier, Villanova at another tier because it's already a member in everything else, and then all of the other candidates (including ECU) have pluses and minuses but are largely in the same bucket. With all of those candidates being in the same bucket, the BE seems to value large markets over everything else, which is why Temple and UCF gets more consideration over the others.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong - this is just my interpretation of how the BE has acted and what it wants. Frankly, the Philly market won't ever support major college football en masse beyond Penn State, but I can understand why the league that wants to position itself as the Northeastern conference isn't just going to concede that market and wants a team there no matter what.

ECU certainly has attractive features when you look into it at a deeper level, yet national perception largely lumps them in with Memphis, UCF and Temple (whether it's fair or not). I hope ECU fans don't take that personally because I do think they have the best pure fan base of the realistic expansion candidates. It just seems as though ECU fans continue to point out, "We are great at A, B and C" when the Big East is looking for X, Y and Z. ECU's strengths and the BE's needs simply aren't aligned.

Not sure Navy is an "also ran." If Navy were interested, they'd be near the top of candidates because they bring a national cache with regards to TV, and would prefer football only which would appease both sides (again if they were ever interested in the first place). I also cannot possibly see Marshall in the same category of any of the three you listed.

(11-14-2010 01:19 PM)Raleighwood Pirate Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 09:50 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 07:29 AM)Chappy Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:22 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(11-14-2010 12:10 AM)paratroopirate Wrote:  You hit the nail on the head....You cant swing a dead cat in North or South Carolina without smashing a dang Northern Transplant in the face. Most of these northern transplant being from the Rutgers, Syracuse and Penn markets. The TV market bit is a cop out, period. If the BE presidents and coaches cant see that fact then they are blind to the obvious. Funny thing is, it is in the south where a large percentage of BE, Big 10 grads retire.

Oh come on...You know that is BS. When the Canes play the Devils at home there are hardly any NJ fans there.

I hope you are being sarcastic. Devils, Rangers, Flyers and Sabres draw the biggest visiting crowds outside of the Caps who bus people down.

Come on...There are no yankees in NC.:secret:

Cary, NC acronym

Containment
Area of
Relocated
Yankees

Trust me. I live in Cary which is right next to Raleigh and it is a city of Yankees. This has been the running joke since I moved to the Triangle in 1998. 90% of the city is from up North. I just had a neighbor and his family move next door to me a couple of months ago. They are from Boston. There are a ton of BE alumni in the Triangle. Isn't that part of the market the BE should want to tap into also?

Meant for buck

(11-14-2010 04:11 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Frankly, the Philly market won't ever support major college football en masse beyond Penn State

I'm sure if Temple or Villanova ever contended for a BCS Championship the entire city would jump on the bandwagon. But that would probably be the only way that Temple or Villanova would ever capture that market - for that season only. They'd jump off the bandwagon just as quickly as they jumped on...