(02-16-2010 09:44 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The MAC is a Midwestern conference. Let's keep it that way, and forcibly contract Temple before making Illinois State and Southern Illinois our next long term, committed members.

Illinois homer! What we really need are more Michigan and Ohio schools!

In all seriousness it seems like MI and OH should possibly reconsider the number of D1 football schools. As for MI, EMU makes the least amount of sense to me because of their proximity to Ann Arbor. I am sure there are others that will disagree strongly but that is my limited (and probably biased) opinion.

And I agree that the MAC is a tough sell on the East coast. Maybe it is time for the MAC commissioner to get the schools together and require a substantial investment in athletics to maintain membership (it really stinks to have your coach potentially poached by Marshall, a non-BCS team). Then, get together with another conference (C-USA? SunBelt?) and put together a strong conference and go from there. Pipe dream? Probably.

I would love for Illinois State to be in the MAC either as a football only member or all-inclusive. I think the MAC could really help out our football exposure in Chicago (and nationally, to some degree), and I would love to get a football rivalry going with NIU.

People from the MVC talk about how us moving to the MAC would be a huge downgrade in athletics outside of football, but I disagree. We have a top three bball team this year in the MVC, and we got beat down at Ohio this year. CMU played us close for awhile also this year. MAC basketball could be a solid challenge for us, and I would like to think we could increase the exposure of MAC bball a little bit.

If the MAC wants more east coast exposure, UMass and Deleware would be hard to argue with. Both are annual top 25 teams with decent (UMass) to stellar (Delaware) fan support. Amherst and Newark are also great college towns. Assuming these schools make the financial committment to upgrade their facilities, and assuming the CAA stays FCS (which I think it will) these are solid choices.

Stony Brook may be an attractive market, but I guarantee you that hardly anyone in New York will give a crap about them playing MAC schools on Tuesday night. Also, unlike Umass and Delaware, Stony Brook is in a lower tier FCS conference, and competetion wise, is nowhere near as ready as UMass and Delaware to compete.

While ISU has not pulled off any upsets of FBS teams in the past 10 years, we have come within 10 points of beating Minnesota, Iowa State, Kansas State (by 1 on a failed 2pt conversion to win in regulation, in a year they beat Texas). I have a really good feeling about our squad this year, and I am confident about the direction of our program under Coach Spack. We don't have much football history but you will be hard pressed to find another FCS team with as much immediate potential to help out the MAC. We play at Northwestern this fall Sept 11 (should be on BTN, if you want to check us out).

Illinois State has an expanding enrollment, an excellent academic reputation, a 10K seat bball arena, a 3K seat baseball stadium (new), plans for a gorgeous 30-35K football stadium, a direct market population of around 200K, potential to tap into much larger markets in Chicago and Saint Louis, John Malkovich and Gary Sinese as alums, the hottest coeds in Illinois (maybe in the Midwest), a great nightlife scene, and Purdue's former DC as our head coach.

Anyway, just my part of selling Illinois State. I am hopeful our 2013/2014 games with Ball State are transitional games to FBS.

(02-16-2010 09:44 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  The MAC is a Midwestern conference. Let's keep it that way, and forcibly contract Temple before making Illinois State and Southern Illinois our next long term, committed members.

Please be clear, the topic of this thread is a hypothetical "Who should #14 be?", not "Predict where the MAC will go, from 14 or down to 12", or "Do we even need to add anyone at all?". We've covered that in other threads. I agree on many of your points, as most here would. We should not take on a member who is not ready or if Temple is certain to leave. It's possible, but they aren't. To that end, all I'm saying is SBU is, IMO, the most likely. I don't see the CAA having enough clout to move up to FBS en masse anytime soon (you know over half the CAA football schools could never front that move).

Whether the MAC "wins" or "loses" anything from associate football members isn't cogent to the debate of if the MAC feels Temple will be here a while, who we may grab. Adding a member to balance the divisions and the horrible scheduling is a "winning" point as far as the MAC is concerned.

And the other schools aren't even close to SBU in resources available to make an FBS move:

*Ill. State is a teacher's college with a $224 Mil. budget, no sizable endowment, and a $14 Mil. athletics budget ($2.6 Mil. going to football). It's
most prominent alums are all in the fields of entertainment

*Southern Ill. is a research university (though 1 in 5 still graduate with a teaching degree) with a budget of $232 Mil., has a $100 Mil. endowment,
$19 Mil. athletics budget ($2.8 Mil. going to football). They have such strong political clout they've had problems making payroll. Their most prominent business alum is the founder of Dippin' Dots.

*SBU is an AAU research university with a $1.9 Bil. budget, a $200 Mil+ endowment, and a $23.3 Mil. athletics budget ($3.3 Mil. going to football). Like UB, it's top majors are business, the sciences, and medical programs. No school of education, so it produces mostly managerial and professional alumni (thus greater gifts to seed the endowment and overall alumni giving).

Damn, I just wikied Stony Brook and I must say, I had no idea Stony Brook was such an accomplished research university. If SB is serious about applying for MAC membership, there is no way Illinois State can compete with that. I bet we still have hotter coeds though.

On a more serious note, I saw that SB only has 14K undergrad. I wonder how many of those undergrad students commute, and would not be around on the weekends for football games?

Also, that is an assload of money they have there for a school that currently shares the gridiron with Charleston Southern and Gardner-Webb. It makes me wonder how committed the University and Long Island communities are to the athletics program.

(02-16-2010 02:16 PM)Redbird Ray Wrote:  Damn, I just wikied Stony Brook and I must say, I had no idea Stony Brook was such an accomplished research university. If SB is serious about applying for MAC membership, there is no way Illinois State can compete with that. I bet we still have hotter coeds though.

On a more serious note, I saw that SB only has 14K undergrad. I wonder how many of those undergrad students commute, and would not be around on the weekends for football games?

Also, that is an assload of money they have there for a school that currently shares the gridiron with Charleston Southern and Gardner-Webb. It makes me wonder how committed the University and Long Island communities are to the athletics program.

Sorry if it appeared I was dumping on your school a bit. It does not compare institutionally to SBU, but is still a great value academically.

Of the 14K undergraduate student, SBU can house a max of 8,400. That's a pretty good number, but I still hear the campus clears out on weekends. All SUNY schools have been behind because we were not allowed to go D-1 until the early 90's, so athletics are still developing. SBU did not move up until 1999, and the school is only 50 years old. They are trying to build school spirit and an identity other than a big state school that no ones connects with. Things improved for them last year as their football won the Big South, then Hofstra dumped their football program, leaving SBU as the only D-1 football team on LI. Lacrosse is king on LI so SBU will work on expanding attention to football.

Stony Brook sounds like a great institution and I guess they could make some sense as a football-only MAC affiliate. But I can't see them ever joining the MAC for all sports because the travel would absolutely kill everyone's budgets. The MAC is a bus league and even Buffalo and Temple are a stretch geographically. If there's no long term all-sports future then Stony Brook will eventually end up somewhere outside the MAC once they find a better fit. If that's true I'm not sure what the short term benefit is other than fixing the 13 team problem. And the 13 team problem will be fixed when Temple jumps ship, which will probably be at their earliest opportunity. So I guess I don't see the point of this whole exercise. If the MAC was serious about expansion then I agree with the posters who say they should consider FCS schools within or adjacent to the current conference footprint, like the Illinois schools, Youngstown State, Indiana State, Northern Iowa. And they should only take all-sports members. Get rid of Temple and add Illinois State and Southern Illinois and the MAC is much better in my opinion. Look at these natural divisions:

East
Buffalo - NY
Toledo - OH
Akron - OH
Kent State - OH
Bowling Green - OH
Ohio - OH
Miami - OH

West
Eastern Michigan - MI
Central Michigan - MI
Western Michigan - MI
Ball State - IN
Northern Illinois - IL
Illinois State - IL
Southern Illinois - IL

And look at the rivalry games, some of which already exist and some which could easily be developed:

Kent State - Akron
Toledo - Bowling Green
Miami - Ohio
Central Michigan - Western Michigan
Northern Illinois - Ball State
Illinois State - Southern Illinois
Buffalo - Eastern Michigan

While I agree that SB and Temple are too much of a hike (especially for nothing but FB only), the Meme that Buffalo is that far out of whack is a bud clearly in need of nipping..

Mean Distance to divisional schools
School Miles
Buffalo 0
NIU -34
Miami -59
BSU -64
Ohio -91
CMU -108
BG -124
WMU -126
EMU -150
Kent -154
Akron -162
Toledo -166


NIU is a whole 30 miles closer to the average MAC school than Buffalo. NIU, Miami, and BSU are all within one hour of each other in terms of average..

Among the east Division Buffalo 320 Miles, on average from MAC Schools, next in the east is Miami who is 316 miles from the average school

On the West NIU is 286 miles from its divisional opponents (30-45 minutes on the highway) and BSU is a big better at 256 (just shy of an hour trip better than Buffalo)

--Edit

On Edit I will add that *If* we need to go the route of adding an FCS school we need to get something more out of it than divisional alignment. If the mac is going to take a chance on an FCS school, and it is a chance, we need to expand our recruiting base without adding too much distance.

Northern Kentucky
West Virginia
Eastern PA
Eastern Iowa
Southern Wisconsin
North East Missouri

(02-16-2010 02:31 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  

(02-16-2010 02:16 PM)Redbird Ray Wrote:  Damn, I just wikied Stony Brook and I must say, I had no idea Stony Brook was such an accomplished research university. If SB is serious about applying for MAC membership, there is no way Illinois State can compete with that. I bet we still have hotter coeds though.

On a more serious note, I saw that SB only has 14K undergrad. I wonder how many of those undergrad students commute, and would not be around on the weekends for football games?

Also, that is an assload of money they have there for a school that currently shares the gridiron with Charleston Southern and Gardner-Webb. It makes me wonder how committed the University and Long Island communities are to the athletics program.

Sorry if it appeared I was dumping on your school a bit. It does not compare institutionally to SBU, but is still a great value academically.

Of the 14K undergraduate student, SBU can house a max of 8,400. That's a pretty good number, but I still hear the campus clears out on weekends. All SUNY schools have been behind because we were not allowed to go D-1 until the early 90's, so athletics are still developing. SBU did not move up until 1999, and the school is only 50 years old. They are trying to build school spirit and an identity other than a big state school that no ones connects with. Things improved for them last year as their football won the Big South, then Hofstra dumped their football program, leaving SBU as the only D-1 football team on LI. Lacrosse is king on LI so SBU will work on expanding attention to football.

No offense taken whatsoever Hillbilly. I really did not know Stony Brook had that much $$$, and was that advanced in terms of their research. You could pretty much substitute SB's financial profile with that of any Big East or even a few Big Ten schools. Good to see NY funds their public universities so well (obviously more tax base, but still, very nice). I read on the SB website about the Govs future plan to invest more in the prominent state schools.

Illinois State is what it is. Quality undergrad academics, with a few choice grad level areas of study. We're not just a teachers college anymore, but you will not see us opening a Med or Law school anytime soon either. We won't ever be classified as a major research university, but neither will most of the MAC. I still think with enough financial support, ISU could be a tremendous asset to the MAC.

(02-16-2010 01:21 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  Please be clear, the topic of this thread is a hypothetical "Who should #14 be?", not "Predict where the MAC will go, from 14 or down to 12", or "Do we even need to add anyone at all?".

Wouldn't contracting Temple and adding two schools to the MAC give you who #14 (and #13) should be?

Quote:To that end, all I'm saying is SBU is, IMO, the most likely.

Well, with this I just disagree. Fair enough!

Quote:I don't see the CAA having enough clout to move up to FBS en masse anytime soon (you know over half the CAA football schools could never front that move).

Agreed (I follow the CAA after the MAC.) But whatever the "haves" in the CAA do, SB will watch closely and with baited breath.

Quote:Whether the MAC "wins" or "loses" anything from associate football members isn't cogent to the debate of if the MAC feels Temple will be here a while, who we may grab. Adding a member to balance the divisions and the horrible scheduling is a "winning" point as far as the MAC is concerned.

OK fine, so SB joins MAC football only, and then Temple leaves. We replace Temple with another East Coast school to placate the Buffalo and the Brook. Then Buffalo leaves. Who then? You see where this leads. The MAC has already done this. Let's bring on someone who would look to the MAC as a long term solution to their Athletic pinings.

Quote:And the other schools aren't even close to SBU in resources available to make an FBS move:

*Ill. State is a teacher's college with a $224 Mil. budget, no sizable endowment, and a $14 Mil. athletics budget ($2.6 Mil. going to football). It's
most prominent alums are all in the fields of entertainment

*Southern Ill. is a research university (though 1 in 5 still graduate with a teaching degree) with a budget of $232 Mil., has a $100 Mil. endowment,
$19 Mil. athletics budget ($2.8 Mil. going to football). They have such strong political clout they've had problems making payroll. Their most prominent business alum is the founder of Dippin' Dots.

*SBU is an AAU research university with a $1.9 Bil. budget, a $200 Mil+ endowment, and a $23.3 Mil. athletics budget ($3.3 Mil. going to football). Like UB, it's top majors are business, the sciences, and medical programs. No school of education, so it produces mostly managerial and professional alumni (thus greater gifts to seed the endowment and overall alumni giving).

Honestly, I do know what you are getting at here with the mullah, the AAU etc. I understand. Doesn't discard the fact that ISU and SIU are completely compatible with other MAC schools, and directionaly related to the MAC footprint, and hold the same type of school and fan culture etc - almost everything that the MAC needs, and what SB doesn't bring to the MAC table.

If NIU can do, then ISU and SIU can do it. ISU especially.

With all this talk, watch the MAC bring on LA Tech or something......

ISU and SIU make the most sense to me from the MAC's perspective....but I gather from past posters/alums that the schools really like their current conference status for non football sports, and have no intention of spending what's required to upgrade to DIA football.

(02-16-2010 01:02 PM)Redbird Ray Wrote:  Illinois State has an expanding enrollment, an excellent academic reputation, a 10K seat bball arena, a 3K seat baseball stadium (new), plans for a gorgeous 30-35K football stadium, a direct market population of around 200K, potential to tap into much larger markets in Chicago and Saint Louis, John Malkovich and Gary Sinese as alums, the hottest coeds in Illinois (maybe in the Midwest), a great nightlife scene, and Purdue's former DC as our head coach.

Illiniois State would be a good fit for the MAC to strengthen its ties in the Chicago market and for BB recruiting. They also meet academic criteria defined by the MAC office for new members.

My biggest concern about ISU is that while they do have plans on the books for a 30,000 stadium, where is that money going to come from? The current Redbird stadium is far from MAC standards. ISU is then also still a member of FCS.

An idea would be to add both WKU and ISU....WKU to the East division so they can play Miami/BG/KSU in basketball....ISU to the west so they can play NIU/BSU/WMU.

(02-15-2010 06:18 PM)axeme Wrote:  

(02-15-2010 04:37 PM)1c0noclast Wrote:  

(02-15-2010 04:09 PM)axeme Wrote:  [quote='conrock' pid='5167170' dateline='1266258691']

Uh, that Final Four was 1995. Camby is an old man in the NBA now. No connection to the present state of the program.

1996 and UMass never made the final four officially because of the dirtball cheater coach John Calipari looking the other way on Marcus Camby's sudden flush of instant wealth.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/09/sports...onors.html

edit - Go Karl!

Kind of beside the point here. 1996 is not recently either, and the NCAA's hollow and too late punishment doesn't change the fact that UMass made the Final Four, and we all saw the games. Until they find a way to make us forget we watched teams play the games, stripping teams of titles and wins is just a way to avoid doling out real punishment: fine a school a couple million bucks, ban the coach from coaching for 5-10 years. Then you will get their attention.

You will remember what the NCAA WANTS you to remember!

(02-16-2010 04:59 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  [quote='RecoveringHillbilly' pid='5170777' dateline='1266344477']
Please be clear, the topic of this thread is a hypothetical "Who should #14 be?", not "Predict where the MAC will go, from 14 or down to 12", or "Do we even need to add anyone at all?".

Wouldn't contracting Temple and adding two schools to the MAC give you who #14 (and #13) should be?





Contracting Temple would also lose the Philadelphia market for the MAC.
While Bloomington is a nice and growing market in central IL (the only market in downstate Illinois that is growing); it's not a major TV market like Philadelphia.
SIU gets a great bang for the bucks it spends on athletics, hoops draws nice attendance numbers (5900 avg) but barely more than that for a football program(9055 avg) that has been a national power in FCS the last 5-6 years and has beaten Indiana and NIU. SIU is also in a sparsely populated area and brings little to no TV market to the MAC.

If the MAC chooses to continue the relationship with Temple, Temple will be in the MAC for football for the forseeable future. The only way the BE invites Temple back in(and over the objections of VU) is if they lose membership. The ACC isn't looking to expand and the Big 10 will be far more interested in Texas, TX A&M, Mizzou and Nebraska than in either Pitt, Syracuse or Rutgers. The Big 12 schools outdraw the Big East programs in football attendance by thousands and while they dont' bring the NYC market, I don't know that any BE team does that for football either. The Big 12 programs would bring Dallas, Houston, St Louis, Kansas City & San Antonio or at least get a significant slice of those college sports fans interested in the Big 10.

If ISU is serious about moving up to FBS they would be a stronger candidate than SIU. Hopefully Spack can bring their program up to championship level in FCS and ISU can expand their current stadium(15K) to move up.

(02-20-2010 10:22 AM)onlinepole Wrote:  Contracting Temple would also lose the Philadelphia market for the MAC.
While Bloomington is a nice and growing market in central IL (the only market in downstate Illinois that is growing); it's not a major TV market like Philadelphia.
SIU gets a great bang for the bucks it spends on athletics, hoops draws nice attendance numbers (5900 avg) but barely more than that for a football program(9055 avg) that has been a national power in FCS the last 5-6 years and has beaten Indiana and NIU. SIU is also in a sparsely populated area and brings little to no TV market to the MAC.

But does Temple really give the MAC the Philly market? They don't pay attention to Temple football (or basketball really) let alone MAC football. And this is not a slight to Temple, I can't say that I blame Philly as they really have no connection to the MAC (no rivalries, etc.). The only way I see Temple delivering the Philly market to a conference is to succeed in a BCS conference.

(02-20-2010 02:03 PM)CMUprof Wrote:  But does Temple really give the MAC the Philly market? They don't pay attention to Temple football (or basketball really) let alone MAC football. And this is not a slight to Temple, I can't say that I blame Philly as they really have no connection to the MAC (no rivalries, etc.). The only way I see Temple delivering the Philly market to a conference is to succeed in a BCS conference.

I have a pretty good perspective on this, as one of the rare non-Temple MAC fans living in the market.

Does Temple GIVE the MAC the Philly market? No, not entirely.

Temple does, however, give the MAC a foothold in the market. And let's face it, a sliver of the Philly market is worth more than the entire market of some MAC schools.

This year in particular, the Philly mass media has dedicated a fair amount of resources to MAC football. Game highlights appeared on local newscasts (which didn't happen three years ago unless Temple played Penn State) and the newspapers not only ran game results, but mid-week features and the like.

And I know I've mentioned multiple times that I am treated to a regular diet of MAC football games on the local cable network. Seeing WMU, CMU and Ball State ... that would never, EVER happen in Philly if Temple weren't in the MAC, outside of our love arrangment with ESPN.

So it's not wall-to-wall coverage, but it's exponentially more exposure than the MAC would get without Temple in the nation's 7th-largest market. I know the MAC-Temple relationship isnt a slam-dunk winner, but for my nickel, it is a winner.

(02-20-2010 02:24 PM)BGSUalum1987 Wrote:  

(02-20-2010 02:03 PM)CMUprof Wrote:  But does Temple really give the MAC the Philly market? They don't pay attention to Temple football (or basketball really) let alone MAC football. And this is not a slight to Temple, I can't say that I blame Philly as they really have no connection to the MAC (no rivalries, etc.). The only way I see Temple delivering the Philly market to a conference is to succeed in a BCS conference.

I have a pretty good perspective on this, as one of the rare non-Temple MAC fans living in the market.

Does Temple GIVE the MAC the Philly market? No, not entirely.

Temple does, however, give the MAC a foothold in the market. And let's face it, a sliver of the Philly market is worth more than the entire market of some MAC schools.

This year in particular, the Philly mass media has dedicated a fair amount of resources to MAC football. Game highlights appeared on local newscasts (which didn't happen three years ago unless Temple played Penn State) and the newspapers not only ran game results, but mid-week features and the like.

And I know I've mentioned multiple times that I am treated to a regular diet of MAC football games on the local cable network. Seeing WMU, CMU and Ball State ... that would never, EVER happen in Philly if Temple weren't in the MAC, outside of our love arrangment with ESPN.

So it's not wall-to-wall coverage, but it's exponentially more exposure than the MAC would get without Temple in the nation's 7th-largest market. I know the MAC-Temple relationship isnt a slam-dunk winner, but for my nickel, it is a winner.

Remember, too, that Temple had its first winning season in eons, so if they can continue to win, they will drive more interest and attendance to their own program, and as a by product, more interest in the MAC. It is unlikely that Temple will be going anywhere anytime soon, so the MAC will be a long term beneficiary in the Philly market (which I thought was the 4th largest, not the 7th largest) if Temple continues to succeed.

(02-22-2010 08:52 PM)fishpro12345 Wrote:  

(02-20-2010 02:24 PM)BGSUalum1987 Wrote:  

(02-20-2010 02:03 PM)CMUprof Wrote:  But does Temple really give the MAC the Philly market? They don't pay attention to Temple football (or basketball really) let alone MAC football. And this is not a slight to Temple, I can't say that I blame Philly as they really have no connection to the MAC (no rivalries, etc.). The only way I see Temple delivering the Philly market to a conference is to succeed in a BCS conference.

I have a pretty good perspective on this, as one of the rare non-Temple MAC fans living in the market.

Does Temple GIVE the MAC the Philly market? No, not entirely.

Temple does, however, give the MAC a foothold in the market. And let's face it, a sliver of the Philly market is worth more than the entire market of some MAC schools.

This year in particular, the Philly mass media has dedicated a fair amount of resources to MAC football. Game highlights appeared on local newscasts (which didn't happen three years ago unless Temple played Penn State) and the newspapers not only ran game results, but mid-week features and the like.

And I know I've mentioned multiple times that I am treated to a regular diet of MAC football games on the local cable network. Seeing WMU, CMU and Ball State ... that would never, EVER happen in Philly if Temple weren't in the MAC, outside of our love arrangment with ESPN.

So it's not wall-to-wall coverage, but it's exponentially more exposure than the MAC would get without Temple in the nation's 7th-largest market. I know the MAC-Temple relationship isnt a slam-dunk winner, but for my nickel, it is a winner.

Remember, too, that Temple had its first winning season in eons, so if they can continue to win, they will drive more interest and attendance to their own program, and as a by product, more interest in the MAC. It is unlikely that Temple will be going anywhere anytime soon, so the MAC will be a long term beneficiary in the Philly market (which I thought was the 4th largest, not the 7th largest) if Temple continues to succeed.

Temple has all the tools in place (facilities, budget) to succeed now.

The question though is in a realignment situation, Temple will be the first to leave. If Pitt or Rutgers ever left the Big East, the BE pretty much has to add Temple.

There is also enough money in the CUSA TV contract that under certain circumstances Temple may want to move there. CUSA does have a tie-in with the Eagle Bank bowl and has a Florida presence for recruiting.

[/quote]



Temple has all the tools in place (facilities, budget) to succeed now.

The question though is in a realignment situation, Temple will be the first to leave. If Pitt or Rutgers ever left the Big East, the BE pretty much has to add Temple.

While you are likely right, why would the Big 10 add Pitt or Rutgers when Mizzou, Nebraska, Texas or Texas A&M are much bigger attendance draws and either UT or A&M would get the Big 10 into the state that produces more HS football talent than any other.

The MAC should drop Temple as soon as possible and let them hang out to dry as they look for another conference.

They are just another school (Marshall,UCF) that used the MAC until they wanted to move on. Are you tired of being used?

(02-24-2010 07:38 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  The MAC should drop Temple as soon as possible and let them hang out to dry as they look for another conference.

They are just another school (Marshall,UCF) that used the MAC until they wanted to move on. Are you tired of being used?

Temple was invited by the MAC, we knew what that entailed. I would prefer they either be all in or out but we welcomed them in.

I don't agree with AKC that they have the facilities in place to join the Big East, at least for football. They do not have a campus stadium, seem to lack adequate practice facilities (if you follow the Owlscoop forum), and do not have much of a football tradition. Their main rival is Villanova, an FCS team and they haven't even won the MAC East yet.

Of course this can all change, Golden definately has them on the right track.