(09-17-2009 02:07 PM)Tripster Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 12:30 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  There are no enemies............... just competeting interests. The trick is to align those interests. The guy's above are living in the 70's stuck in the cold war. The military inductrial complex is a formidable beast because of this mentality.

I can tell you've never fought in a War if you honestly think this way.

We have many many enemies and they are not ashamed to admit it either.

There are no "Competing Interest" when you are on the wrong end of a Russian or Chicom AK47 or Dragunov Rifle.

The powers that control them may be working the scene like the back door at the Stock Market, but the Grunt in the Field believes he is Fighting a War for his Cause ..... and that makes his tiny ass an "ENEMY".

.

Not only does he not know what it is like to be in a war, he does not have a clue about what it takes to defend a nation.

(09-17-2009 12:30 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  There are no enemies............... just competeting interests. The trick is to align those interests. The guy's above are living in the 70's stuck in the cold war. The military inductrial complex is a formidable beast because of this mentality.

Radical Islam is not a competing interest.

Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

(09-17-2009 07:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

We can always offer military and logistical support should anything happen. However, it's high time for countries like Germany, Italy, Poland, etc., to start paying for their own defense. I don't like the "reasoning" behind Obama's decision, but it is something I've felt for years. I've been stationed in Germany. They have the manpower AND resources to take care of their own. There is no reason for us to spend billions in Europe right now.

I also don't think most Russians are keen to the idea of imperialism anymore.

(09-17-2009 07:21 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

I also don't think most Russians are keen to the idea of imperialism anymore.

Most Russians don't, but Putin and his oligarchy do.

I wonder how much of a "heads up" the Poles and Czechs had before the phone calls...

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk confirmed today that he declined last night to take a call from the U.S. informing him of the decision to scrap planned missile-defense bases in his country.

Two U.S.-based sources close to the Polish government said Thursday that Tusk also rejected a call from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton — on the grounds that, as the head of the government, he should speak to the president.

"Hillary called — and the reason he turned it down was because of protocol," said a source.

Questions about the exchanges surfaced in the Polish press after Obama reached the Czech prime minister late last night to warn of the policy change, but did not speak to the Pole until this morning. And the static offers a glimpse at the distress beneath the diplomatic facade being offered by Eastern European leaders.

Polish Radio reports today that Tusk confirmed an earlier press report that he hadn't taken Obama's call but denied it was due to "technical difficulties."

Tusk said he declined to speak with President Obama during the night because he wanted to “properly prepare for the discussion."

A Polish Embassy spokesman noted that Tusk ultimately spoke to Obama, while Clinton spoke to the country's foreign minister.

A State Department spokesman wouldn't comment on the details of the episode (updated).

The Polish preparation may have paid off however: They are reportedly angling for an American commitment of Patriot missile systems based in Poland, which Poles see, like the larger missile-defense bases, as a partial guarantee against Russian agression (despite American denials that the defenses are aimed at Russia).

"I would not describe what is going on today as a defeat for Poland," Tusk told reporters in Warsaw, according to the AP, saying Obama had signaled that "Poland has a chance to win an exclusive position" in the new system

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0...ml?showall

(09-17-2009 07:21 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

We can always offer military and logistical support should anything happen. However, it's high time for countries like Germany, Italy, Poland, etc., to start paying for their own defense. I don't like the "reasoning" behind Obama's decision, but it is something I've felt for years. I've been stationed in Germany. They have the manpower AND resources to take care of their own. There is no reason for us to spend billions in Europe right now.

I also don't think most Russians are keen to the idea of imperialism anymore.

We cant afford this crap and it is time that these countries that have depended upon the US for protection...start doing it themselves.

I find it so damn funny that the very people that ***** and moan about us not being able to protect America's borders...are still willing to piss away money protecting borders of countries half way around the world. it is plainly illogical and absurd. Treaties be damned. Take care of our landmass first.

(09-17-2009 10:10 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I find it so damn funny that the very people that ***** and moan about us not being able to protect America's borders...are still willing to piss away money protecting borders of countries half way around the world. it is plainly illogical and absurd. Treaties be damned. Take care of our landmass first.

It's not that we CAN'T take care of our borders, it's that no recent administration is WILLING too.

(09-17-2009 09:53 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  The Polish preparation may have paid off however: They are reportedly angling for an American commitment of Patriot missile systems based in Poland, which Poles see, like the larger missile-defense bases, as a partial guarantee against Russian agression (despite American denials that the defenses are aimed at Russia).

I say give them the Patriots but the commitment should be theirs, i.e. they pay for the damn things.

(09-17-2009 10:13 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 09:53 PM)WMD Owl Wrote:  The Polish preparation may have paid off however: They are reportedly angling for an American commitment of Patriot missile systems based in Poland, which Poles see, like the larger missile-defense bases, as a partial guarantee against Russian agression (despite American denials that the defenses are aimed at Russia).

I say give them the Patriots but the commitment should be theirs, i.e. they pay for the damn things.

I say don"t give them sh!t...Let them fend for themselves. They are perfectly capable of defending themselves. We have done way past our share of being the worlds defender and quite frankly....the bank account is overdrawn.

(09-17-2009 07:21 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

We can always offer military and logistical support should anything happen. However, it's high time for countries like Germany, Italy, Poland, etc., to start paying for their own defense. I don't like the "reasoning" behind Obama's decision, but it is something I've felt for years. I've been stationed in Germany. They have the manpower AND resources to take care of their own. There is no reason for us to spend billions in Europe right now.

I also don't think most Russians are keen to the idea of imperialism anymore.

good point but do you really think poland and the czech republic can defend themselves from Russia?

(09-17-2009 10:35 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:21 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

We can always offer military and logistical support should anything happen. However, it's high time for countries like Germany, Italy, Poland, etc., to start paying for their own defense. I don't like the "reasoning" behind Obama's decision, but it is something I've felt for years. I've been stationed in Germany. They have the manpower AND resources to take care of their own. There is no reason for us to spend billions in Europe right now.

I also don't think most Russians are keen to the idea of imperialism anymore.

good point but do you really think poland and the czech republic can defend themselves from Russia?

To put it bluntly....I really could care less.

I wasn't in favor of putting the missiles in to begin with. But once we decided to put them in, we put some issues into play that weren't there to begin with, and I've got mixed opinions about this decision. Certainly, if nothing else, this was a horrible choice of dates to announce it. Can't imagine how they figured the timing was a good idea, unless the goal is simply to p!$$ off Poland.

I've got a couple of thoughts about how I would have played it. One would be to tell Poland and Czech Republic that if they wanted it, they had to pay for it. That's what I would have done from the beginning. We don't need to be spending more to defend Europe than Europe pays to defend Europe. My guess is that they probably would decide they had better things to spend the money on, and that would get us off the hook a bit. Of course, if they did pony up the bucks, we would have to deliver, so there is some risk here.

Second thought would be to look at it as something we are pretty much ambivalent about. If we can get a significant concession from the Russians in exchange, then it might be well worth it to pull back. Without such concessions, we are doing this unilaterally, and that is a mistake IMO. Hard to tell right now whether we really got anything from Russia or not. We shall see.

One other thought is that other than placing the call that didn't get accepted, Hillary seems to have been pretty much a no-show on this one. Does that suggest anything about her future?

(09-17-2009 10:37 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 10:35 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:21 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(09-17-2009 07:14 PM)flyingswoosh Wrote:  Do democrats really not have a problem with throwing georgia, Ukraine, etc. to the wolves?

We can always offer military and logistical support should anything happen. However, it's high time for countries like Germany, Italy, Poland, etc., to start paying for their own defense. I don't like the "reasoning" behind Obama's decision, but it is something I've felt for years. I've been stationed in Germany. They have the manpower AND resources to take care of their own. There is no reason for us to spend billions in Europe right now.

I also don't think most Russians are keen to the idea of imperialism anymore.

good point but do you really think poland and the czech republic can defend themselves from Russia?

To put it bluntly....I really could care less.

don't you have any interests though?

(09-17-2009 11:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thought is that other than placing the call that didn't get accepted, Hillary seems to have been pretty much a no-show on this one. Does that suggest anything about her future?

I have a feeling that Hillary has been playing "second fiddle" on foreign policy for the past few months.

Rasmussen has Obama at 47% popularity. If he drops into the mid 30's and/or loses a part of Congress in 2010 she mail bail on him to get ready for 2012.

(09-17-2009 11:12 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other thought is that other than placing the call that didn't get accepted, Hillary seems to have been pretty much a no-show on this one. Does that suggest anything about her future?

If you wanted to have a political future (internationally), would you want to have a hand in it?

Rumor for a week now is that Hillary is resigning this fall and going to run for Govenor of NY, with a strong hint towards challenging Obama in primary in 2012 obviously.

(09-18-2009 08:37 AM)GGniner Wrote:  Rumor for a week now is that Hillary is resigning this fall and going to run for Govenor of NY, with a strong hint towards challenging Obama in primary in 2012 obviously.

Let Rudi take her old Senate Seat against Gilibrand.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_o...defense_22

Quote:An editorial in Hospodarske Novine, a respected pro-business Czech newspaper, said: “an ally we rely on has betrayed us, and exchanged us for its own, better relations with Russia, of which we are rightly afraid.”…

“No Radar. Russia won,” the largest Czech daily, Mlada Fronta Dnes, declared in a front-page headline.

(09-18-2009 09:46 AM)GGniner Wrote:  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090918/ap_o...defense_22

Quote:An editorial in Hospodarske Novine, a respected pro-business Czech newspaper, said: “an ally we rely on has betrayed us, and exchanged us for its own, better relations with Russia, of which we are rightly afraid.”…

“No Radar. Russia won,” the largest Czech daily, Mlada Fronta Dnes, declared in a front-page headline.

"pro-business Czech newspaper". Those are the key words in your post. Those words basically mean that it is a rightwing pro-military newspaper so the position is not surprising.