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Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
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OneSockUp Offline
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Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
As the SEC continuously dominates at least two -- and sometimes all three -- time slots every Saturday, I'm curious where the upside is to expanding at all.

I don't think anyone expects ratings to get substantially higher -- at least not unless Notre Dame, Ohio State, or Michigan is involved, which of course nobody is talking about.

So where does the additional revenue come from expansion? Subscriber fees don't increase with FSU or Clemson. SEC Championship Game revenues don't increase with additional programs in the mix, so that revenue just gets split more ways.

Basketball media rights and NCAA Tournament Credits aren't valuable enough to justify the likes of UNC and Kansas who might risk the football media rights cash cow. Replace LSU vs. A&M from this past Saturday with LSU vs UNC and A&M vs. Kansas and see what happens to those TV ratings.

Some people like to talk about expansion simply to defend the Deep South from a Big Ten invasion, but that's just a game of Whack-A-Mole. Take Florida State and Clemson, the B1G adds Georgia Tech and North Carolina. Take those two as well and the B1G gets Duke and South Florida -- to say nothing of Miami.

With all of that in mind, I'm afraid it's going to be B1G or bust for Clemson and Florida State.
10-26-2025 06:47 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame
10-26-2025 07:08 AM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
There is a lot more going on with consolidation than adding schools. Additional markets do provide additional revenue, especially if two schools can add 21 million in potential advertising reach (North Carolina and Virginia). That's like picking up another Florida market wise.

The NCAA isn't going to keep upper tier athletics when consolidation is done. Basketball will be monetized and brands like Duke, Kansas, and North Carolina bring national eyes on your product increasing your commercial value. The same year monetization of a new upper tier tournament will multiply the annual payout of tourney credits by X 6 which is the number of years the NCAA takes to fully pay for 1 year's tournament.

For the SEC such additions also tend to lessen the brutality of football scheduling bringing it a little more in line with what the Big 10 does.

Then there is the unspoken of reason, House seats loyal to their state schools and therefore more likely to vote for appropriations which favor the block of schools in which their state school is a member. 2030 census projections indicate that as many as 15 seats could be lost within the Big Ten's current footprint. Where are the states with the largest number of house seats outside of California and New York? Texas and Florida and by combination North Carolina and Virginia. Private schools don't help much. State schools do. To maintain leverage the quickest remedy for the Big Ten is to get into North Carolina, Virginia or Florida as they have no solid approach to get into Texas. Baylor and T.C.U. are private and Texas Tech is way below their norm. It is true that football and competition in the SEC is at peak for earnings. But boys and girls media revenue is only one line in the ledger, and I'll keep hammering that until it sinks in. And media revenue isn't the first or even second most important ledger line. State and Federal funding dwarves athletics revenue in general. Donations to the athletic departments of the best athletically branded state schools would be #2 at most of those schools sometimes trebling media revenue. But the Federal and State funds are key to the university as a whole. So, for political influence and self-interest schools which are consolidating are looking for all angles that influence their revenue inside and outside athletics. For that reason alone, the SEC and Big Ten are interested in North Carolina and Virginia and since the Big Ten wants AAU schools the SEC's best offense and defense is to seek UNC and UVa. But things change in Florida because USF doesn't yet have a significant statewide viewership though they are AAU, and Miami is smallish private that wouldn't carry many dedicated House seats voting for their interests. So, we have the narrative of why Florida State's market is so important the Big Ten would take them. Really, it's because they as the state's #2 school would garner the support of most of the House members in Florida. Remember this isn't a red vs blue issue. This is about appropriations for state schools. Divide the loyalties between the Big Ten and SEC with FSU in the Big Ten and UF in the SEC and the Big Ten covers their potential 2030 census losses.

To understand consolidation, especially the part of it distasteful to explain to alumni, you need to understand that the SEC and Big Ten are turning into two lobby groups for collections of large state schools and top private schools. Why? The enrollment cliff is real, financial instability globally is growing, and while sports is the front porch to attracting enrollment for many schools, ALL REVENUE STREAMS matter more than ever.

Of course, North Carolina and Virginia are not football prizes for the SEC and Big Ten and FSU is not an academic prize for the Big Ten. So why all of the talk of adding any of them? Well, it sure as hell isn't about just sports! When stuff happens for which, you can find no good reason and for which you can't back it up with conventional logic, then it's not about what you think it is about! Therefore, it's not about sports and that is why logic seems to be ignored, and the additions proposed make no sense. And I'll give you something else to use as an early warning device, when schools which once controlled their own conferences leave for another conference (think USC, Washington, Texas, Oklahoma, North Carolina, Virginia) it is because something is coming that scares the Hell out of them! A.I., the value of STEM jobs, the current ROI for a liberal arts degree, the baby bust (enrollment cliff), the uncertainty of the value of the dollar, renminbi, Euro, rupee, yen, and ruble, the mass migrations of poor people to nations with more natural resources, and a tension level globally which usually signals a coming war, all are signs of a very, very unstable future and that is motivation enough to find safety in numbers, not football media rights, not monetizing basketball, or even baseball. But because of how government works, the markets trade, and because panic is not an organizing principle, but an obstacle, nobody is talking about it.

What they can talk about without creating anything but curiosity and some bewilderment is why North Carolina, Virginia, and Florida State are viable candidates to either Super Conference. Therefore, sports affiliation is the attributed motive for issues they don't want to discuss, at least not openly.

That is why half of this board is confused and conflicted over the scope of expansion/consolidation. It's not about simply sports! Good luck to us all!
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2025 08:47 AM by JRsec.)
10-26-2025 08:43 AM
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andybible1995 Offline
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 07:08 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame

Why in the world would the SEC ever consider going coast to coast?
10-26-2025 08:56 AM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
The main reason would be to keep the Big 10 out of "their" territory.
10-26-2025 09:23 AM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 08:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 07:08 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame

Why in the world would the SEC ever consider going coast to coast?

SEC After Dark
10-26-2025 10:29 AM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 09:23 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  The main reason would be to keep the Big 10 out of "their" territory.

Obviously the Big Ten has more to gain adding Florida teams, especially if Miami continues their winning ways (who knows if FSU will get back but bring the right coach and things change?) North Carolina and Virginia are demographic adds for both the Big Ten and SEC.
10-26-2025 11:27 AM
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Jhawkinva Offline
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
Wake Forest, Kansas State, Boston College, Houston, Iowa State, Syracuse, etc. aren't nearly as valuable as they're being treated.

If you remove Clemson, Florida State, Kansas, UNC, etc. from them, they lose significant allure.

I've long maintained if I were the SEC or the Big Ten, I'd take every remaining brand.

Expand the CFP to 24. 8 auto bids to the Big Ten, 8 to the SEC, 2 to the G8, and 6 at-larges.

Change the NCAA Tournament to pay based on locked in values like the CFP does so you know how much you'll get for adding UNC, Duke, KU, etc.
10-26-2025 11:36 AM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 06:47 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  As the SEC continuously dominates at least two -- and sometimes all three -- time slots every Saturday, I'm curious where the upside is to expanding at all.

I don't think anyone expects ratings to get substantially higher -- at least not unless Notre Dame, Ohio State, or Michigan is involved, which of course nobody is talking about.

So where does the additional revenue come from expansion? Subscriber fees don't increase with FSU or Clemson. SEC Championship Game revenues don't increase with additional programs in the mix, so that revenue just gets split more ways.

Basketball media rights and NCAA Tournament Credits aren't valuable enough to justify the likes of UNC and Kansas who might risk the football media rights cash cow. Replace LSU vs. A&M from this past Saturday with LSU vs UNC and A&M vs. Kansas and see what happens to those TV ratings.

Some people like to talk about expansion simply to defend the Deep South from a Big Ten invasion, but that's just a game of Whack-A-Mole. Take Florida State and Clemson, the B1G adds Georgia Tech and North Carolina. Take those two as well and the B1G gets Duke and South Florida -- to say nothing of Miami.

With all of that in mind, I'm afraid it's going to be B1G or bust for Clemson and Florida State.

Schools like Miami, FSU and Clemson have proven that they can provide top-of-the-SEC numbers in their better years. Schools like UNC and UVA can provide elite Academics and basketball (in UNC's case) and expand our footprint in desirable ways. I've argued strongly against UVA, and I still feel like they're a darkhorse candidate, but there are reasonable arguments that they could help us maintain our dominance as we transition into the next phase of College Athletics. Breakaway? Stay in NCAA but take over NCAAT? Stay just the way things are with very little movement for 50 years? There's potential with all of those schools to help us. That doesn't mean that all or even any of them will help us enough to get 12 votes...but it might. I just hope that our Presidents look at the complete picture, and they look beyond "what can school X bring us in the next TV deal and I don't care about anything else". I mean, that TV deal matters ofc, but the long term health of the conference matters even more. Ideally, we'd want somebody who can do both, like OUT did, but schools like them are in short supply these days.
10-26-2025 11:46 AM
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DFW HOYA Online
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 08:43 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Where are the states with the largest number of house seats outside of California and New York?

Texas and Florida already have more seats than New York.
10-26-2025 12:07 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 12:07 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 08:43 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Where are the states with the largest number of house seats outside of California and New York?

Texas and Florida already have more seats than New York.
Uh, yeah! Texas and Florida are in the South as are North Carolina and Virginia, though Virginia has culturally changed. Which was my point. In the Big Ten's footprint, it would be California and New York. The Big Ten has no solid option to get into Texas. Therefore, their targeted areas are North Carolina and Virginia and Florida, preferably with a state school. The SEC's interests reside in preventing that so North Carolina and Virginia and Florida State are the most effective ways of blocking since the Big Ten would have a harder time selling N.C. State and Virginia Tech. If it takes Duke to cement UNC and UVa that's what the SEC will do. Miami is a solid sports addition with AAU credentials, but they don't control the allegiances of House members the way state schools do.

And to Bryan1995, our presidents are most interested in growing academic credentials and they are interested in the same kinds of political influence the Big Ten is interested in. Those 2 priorities will have much more influence over who is added should we expand again, and I believe it is very likely.
The sports branding for basketball is a perk, not a feature. The 35% of the Florida college sports viewership controlled by FSU is a feature, not a perk.

North Carolina and Virginia are defensive market moves with a political purpose. They will add a lot of value to the Basketball side of things, as would Duke if they are essential to landing to the first two. I seriously doubt that either the SEC or Big Ten will be staying in the NCAA. Full autonomy without obligations to any entities other than self is the objective. FSU with the U of Florida controls 77% of the college sports viewing market in Florida. The Big Ten with Miami would control tops 19% of it and in down years for the U about 15% of it. UCF and USF each control a lot less than 10% of the market. The variance in percentages being off is due to the overlap between UF and FSU. There is wiggle room on those numbers.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2025 12:32 PM by JRsec.)
10-26-2025 12:20 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 08:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 07:08 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame

Why in the world would the SEC ever consider going coast to coast?

It's about the only thing they can do that significantly increases their average value.

And only USC would be non-contiguous -- Michigan and Pennsylania border Ohio which borders Kentucky.

You would have your "Super League", entirely within the SEC, which would quickly constitute a tier of college athletics unto themselves. They might or might not need the NCAA and CFP At that point, they might just organize SEC championships that are effectively national championships, the 20 Super-SEC schools would constitute a reasonable bargaining unit to stand up a coherent players union (or separate unions for football and everything-else, or maybe football, basketball and everything-else) and get their labor situation straight.
(This post was last modified: 10-26-2025 12:29 PM by johnbragg.)
10-26-2025 12:25 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 12:25 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 08:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 07:08 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame

Why in the world would the SEC ever consider going coast to coast?

It's about the only thing they can do that significantly increases their average value.

And only USC would be non-contiguous -- Michigan and Pennsylania border Ohio which borders Kentucky.

You would have your "Super League", entirely within the SEC, which would quickly constitute a tier of college athletics unto themselves. They might or might not need the NCAA and CFP At that point, they might just organize SEC championships that are effectively national championships, the 20 Super-SEC schools would constitute a reasonable bargaining unit to stand up a coherent players union (or separate unions for football and everything-else, or maybe football, basketball and everything-else) and get their labor situation straight.
While what you suggest has been subjected to a think tank type of analysis, I believe that concept has been rejected for good reason. Big Ten vs SEC sells a helluva lot better than a mish mash of the top of the Big Ten with the SEC which would alienate viewers in the North and South, and the win / loss bell curve that would result from so few schools in participation would alienate those fan bases as well, especially since they all expect to win the overwhelming number of their contests.

Now toss in the fact that the SEC decided long ago to keep its extremely strong regional identity which doesn't cause harm to its #1 national audience, and the appetite for such a concept simply doesn't exist. Which is why it will focus on locking down the Southeast with an eye on the Southwest.
10-26-2025 12:38 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
The upside (meaning greed) will be in a Power 1 or Super League structure from the top B1G and SEC brands.

It’s not a matter of if but when.
10-26-2025 12:46 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
Maybe there is limited value in expansion but what if the top 8 schools leave the SEC and top 8 schools leave the Big Ten to form a new Power-1 conference.

Then it might be handy for the SEC to have a good group of leftovers that could survive as a tier2 conference.
10-26-2025 12:49 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 06:47 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  As the SEC continuously dominates at least two -- and sometimes all three -- time slots every Saturday, I'm curious where the upside is to expanding at all.

I don't think anyone expects ratings to get substantially higher -- at least not unless Notre Dame, Ohio State, or Michigan is involved, which of course nobody is talking about.

So where does the additional revenue come from expansion? Subscriber fees don't increase with FSU or Clemson. SEC Championship Game revenues don't increase with additional programs in the mix, so that revenue just gets split more ways.

Basketball media rights and NCAA Tournament Credits aren't valuable enough to justify the likes of UNC and Kansas who might risk the football media rights cash cow. Replace LSU vs. A&M from this past Saturday with LSU vs UNC and A&M vs. Kansas and see what happens to those TV ratings.

Some people like to talk about expansion simply to defend the Deep South from a Big Ten invasion, but that's just a game of Whack-A-Mole. Take Florida State and Clemson, the B1G adds Georgia Tech and North Carolina. Take those two as well and the B1G gets Duke and South Florida -- to say nothing of Miami.

With all of that in mind, I'm afraid it's going to be B1G or bust for Clemson and Florida State.

I have been saying that for a long time. At least North Carolina and Virginia would be a market grab for the SEC.

The 16 team SEC with 3-6-6 would be a complete product and they will be very very selective in term of expansion.
10-26-2025 12:51 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 12:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 12:25 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 08:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 07:08 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame

Why in the world would the SEC ever consider going coast to coast?

It's about the only thing they can do that significantly increases their average value.

And only USC would be non-contiguous -- Michigan and Pennsylania border Ohio which borders Kentucky.

You would have your "Super League", entirely within the SEC, which would quickly constitute a tier of college athletics unto themselves. They might or might not need the NCAA and CFP At that point, they might just organize SEC championships that are effectively national championships, the 20 Super-SEC schools would constitute a reasonable bargaining unit to stand up a coherent players union (or separate unions for football and everything-else, or maybe football, basketball and everything-else) and get their labor situation straight.
While what you suggest has been subjected to a think tank type of analysis, I believe that concept has been rejected for good reason. Big Ten vs SEC sells a helluva lot better than a mish mash of the top of the Big Ten with the SEC which would alienate viewers in the North and South, and the win / loss bell curve that would result from so few schools in participation would alienate those fan bases as well, especially since they all expect to win the overwhelming number of their contests.

Now toss in the fact that the SEC decided long ago to keep its extremely strong regional identity which doesn't cause harm to its #1 national audience, and the appetite for such a concept simply doesn't exist. Which is why it will focus on locking down the Southeast with an eye on the Southwest.

Never underestimate the power of greed school presidents have. They’ll do anything for the almighty $$$$. Greed trumps regionalism, rivalries, history, tradition, common sense, etc.

Nothing……absolutely nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to realignment.
10-26-2025 12:52 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 06:47 AM)OneSockUp Wrote:  As the SEC continuously dominates at least two -- and sometimes all three -- time slots every Saturday, I'm curious where the upside is to expanding at all.

I don't think anyone expects ratings to get substantially higher -- at least not unless Notre Dame, Ohio State, or Michigan is involved, which of course nobody is talking about.

So where does the additional revenue come from expansion? Subscriber fees don't increase with FSU or Clemson. SEC Championship Game revenues don't increase with additional programs in the mix, so that revenue just gets split more ways.

Basketball media rights and NCAA Tournament Credits aren't valuable enough to justify the likes of UNC and Kansas who might risk the football media rights cash cow. Replace LSU vs. A&M from this past Saturday with LSU vs UNC and A&M vs. Kansas and see what happens to those TV ratings.

Some people like to talk about expansion simply to defend the Deep South from a Big Ten invasion, but that's just a game of Whack-A-Mole. Take Florida State and Clemson, the B1G adds Georgia Tech and North Carolina. Take those two as well and the B1G gets Duke and South Florida -- to say nothing of Miami.

With all of that in mind, I'm afraid it's going to be B1G or bust for Clemson and Florida State.

There are many, but I'll give you one that is rarely considered. I think the best ratio of traditional powers, and the rest of the conference comprised of teams that are good enough to beat the traditional powers, is 1:1. You need enough traditional powers to drive viewership and money during the years some of the traditional powers are having subpar years. Additionally, you need in any given year some of the non-traditional schools having better than average years and contending for playoff spots. This maximizes media value, and also makes it less likely that some of the traditional powers' value are permanently diminished.

But at the same time, you want every major traditional power/major brand football programs you can acquire, and you do not want any school that will not compete long-term in football for lack of sufficient finances or fanbase size and enthusiasm. All invitees much have at least very good academics, and an academic outlook that such academic status will at least be maintained or increased over time.

This analysis makes a good case for the SEC to take the Magnificent 7, plus GT. The SEC now has 9 traditional football powers and 7 schools that look like they can beat any other school on any given Saturday. Adding FSU, Miami and Clemson, plus the other 5 ACC brings the ratio to 1:1.

Lastly, I will remind everyone that conference realignment at this time in history is being fueled solely by the extraordinary rise in value of college football. Nothing else. Basketball valuations are speculative, and even in such speculations basketball valuations are still dwarfed by football, both now and in any projected valuations of both sports. There is no speculative analysis of basketball, even if NCAA Tournament profits are syphoned to the P2, comes close to the projected valuations of college football. The future conference payouts will be closer to $200 million per school per year, not $100 million, in a few short years. And then more than that. The valuations of college football will be 60%+ of the NFL. Do the math yourself.

The SEC controlling the college football market from Virginia west to Mizzouri, south to Texas, and back east to Florida, secures the SEC's position as having the best grouping of college football programs in the country, while keeping its strength of being a regional conference.
10-26-2025 12:58 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 09:23 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  The main reason would be to keep the Big 10 out of "their" territory.

That certainly is the biggest reason. Maintaining its monopoly on the best football in the greater Southeastern region is smart business.
10-26-2025 01:00 PM
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RE: Where is the upside to SEC expansion?
(10-26-2025 08:56 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  
(10-26-2025 07:08 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  I mean I personally think the only expansion move. that really makes sense. is the SEC adding Ohio State, Michigan USC and either Notre Dame or Penn State.

The average value of the Big tenon SEC have risen to the point where additions from outside the P2 don't make sense unless it's Notre Dame

Why in the world would the SEC ever consider going coast to coast?

Expand their tv/streaming fanbase, to bring in more money for better players and coaches?
10-26-2025 01:01 PM
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