Quote:Fountain Valley church plans to break off from United Methodist Church over LGBTQ issues.

This could be the final summer for Fountain Valley's 59-year-old church, The Fount.

"It's a real crime that we may be evicted from it and then have to start over," said Pastor Glen Haworth.

The Fount is a traditional United Methodist Church. Its 50 members are against ordaining or appointing LGBTQ+ clergy. The congregation follows the denomination's Book of Discipline and Haworth said the rules outlined in it are being ignored.

"Our membership and over 6,000 other churches in the US feel that while we love all people and embrace them as God's children, we do not believe that the acts of homosexual practice are allowable under the Bible and so our stance is to hold true to that," said Haworth.

The pastor said because the United Methodist is drifting to the left and continues to ignore the teachings of the Bible, his church must disaffiliate and operate independently. The soonest this church could disaffiliate from the denomination is November. However, it must first come up with a payment of more than $3 million. This is something that the pastor here at The Fount said would be impossible.

The money would be paid to the United Methodist Church of Southern California. In an email, Reverend Sandra Olewine, who oversees The Fount, explained that a church doesn't own its property and if there is a disagreement over homosexuality, a particular church has the option of buying the property for 50 cents on the dollar.

It will then own the land, free and clear, and can operate as it chooses.

"We may end up having to just abandon the property, close down the preschool, scout troop. Close down the four other churches that meet here," said Haworth.

There are 21 other United Methodist churches in Southern California that want to cut ties as well.

Link

Filth never build they only destroy

They should look into starting a GiveSendGo or WayGiver campaign to raise the money. Get people to share it on social media.

I bet they'd get the $3M pretty quick.

1/5th of the United Methodist Churches are already splitting to start the Global Methodist Church. This is something that has been in the works for several years as the church has grown increasingly woke. The one by my house that we attended for a while had an associate pastor who was a member of BLM and organized a public event where they wanted people to kneel at a busy intersection to honor George Floyd. They’ve lost a ton of members, including our family (most of the congregation wad an older suburban and/or rural demographic).

https://apnews.com/article/united-method...e60ddd5afd

My church already split from the United Methodist church. The old pastor said that the United Methodist church had no lgbtq+ agenda. Then after we break away and he goes to a new church he posts up a post with the lgbt+ flag on it saying all are welcome at his new church. All are welcome is fine, but I'm pretty sure that indicates he was part of the movement wanting actively practicing lgbt+ pastors/bishops/and marriages in the church.

The Episcopal Church has already split with the creation of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) in 2009. Some former Episcopal dioceses left the national Episcopal church to join ACNA, in other cases individual churches broke away. I left for ACNA about two years ago, after several years of going back and forth. I attended the annual Episcopal Diocesan Council, and came away convinced that straight white males were an endangered species in the leadership of the Episcopal Church.

(07-08-2023 03:33 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  1/5th of the United Methodist Churches are already splitting to start the Global Methodist Church. This is something that has been in the works for several years as the church has grown increasingly woke. The one by my house that we attended for a while had an associate pastor who was a member of BLM and organized a public event where they wanted people to kneel at a busy intersection to honor George Floyd. They’ve lost a ton of members, including our family (most of the congregation wad an older suburban and/or rural demographic).

https://apnews.com/article/united-method...e60ddd5afd

I haven't read the fine print, but they were supposed to be able to take their property with them. There was an agreement to let the conservative churches, probably about half the congregations, leave.

All should be welcome at church.

Few should be pastors or leaders in the church.

(07-08-2023 04:33 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  All should be welcome at church.

Few should be pastors or leaders in the church.

I agree, but church is meant to be a place to launch political statements or virtue signaling events. Keep it the the scriptures, provide a good sermon based on biblical verses and relate it to daily life and challenges, and leave the politics out of it. My mother, a true "chruch lady" voted in favor for splitting off from the United Methodist Church over social justice issues, and she was correct.

(07-08-2023 04:33 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  All should be welcome at church.

Few should be pastors or leaders in the church.

I strongly feel the same way. But I don't think ministers are trained that way anymore.

The older generation needs to let go of the denominational chains. Hanging on so tightly to these silly little names and divisions does the Body of Christ no good. All it does is divide people up, when we are instructed by Christ and all the Apostles to be as ONE BODY. Yet most of Christianity in America does just the opposite.

I will never understand the need to identity as a member/follower of a particular denomination over just being a Bible believing Christian. But many old school Christians identify as their denomination first and foremost. ALL their beliefs have to flow directly from that branch and all other thoughts and views must be rejected. Its very much like a political identity.

Most new and or young Christians today have no denominational ties, in fact very few new converts actually come through these classical denominations and altar calls now. Since it just the older generation hanging on, their numbers continue to dwindle more and more.

Meanwhile, there is a whole new generation (of all ages actually) of Bible believing Christians out there who commune through the net and online churches because they can't find solid Bible based teaching in churches in their area. Many of them came to faith because of apologetic ministries and Bible studies and online bible teachings. They are very Beren like and seek to know and understand the Bible and get deep Bible studies and teachings directly from the Word.

There is this whole thriving new wing of Christianity of all ages, but since they are mostly non denominational you never hear about them and you just hear how attendance in the classic denominations is falling. But there is this big divide between that older generation and the exploding new generation of believers because the older folks do not even know about them unless they are in their pews next to them.

I hear the same things from the newer believers all the time, they want a local chruch to join but they feel like most of them do not really teach from the Bible and instead mostly teach denominational traditions. They get mostly "prosperity gospel" messages, Joel Olsteen style services and way too much of a focus on presentation, show and raw membership numbers. So they stick mostly to sound Bible teachers with a strong online ministry and teachings.

(07-09-2023 07:12 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  The older generation needs to let go of the denominational chains. Hanging on so tightly to these silly little names and divisions does the Body of Christ no good. All it does is divide people up, when we are instructed by Christ and all the Apostles to be as ONE BODY. Yet most of Christianity in America does just the opposite.

I will never understand the need to identity as a member/follower of a particular denomination over just being a Bible believing Christian. But many old school Christians identify as their denomination first and foremost. ALL their beliefs have to flow directly from that branch and all other thoughts and views must be rejected. Its very much like a political identity.

Most new and or young Christians today have no denominational ties, in fact very few new converts actually come through these classical denominations and altar calls now. Since it just the older generation hanging on, their numbers continue to dwindle more and more.

Meanwhile, there is a whole new generation (of all ages actually) of Bible believing Christians out there who commune through the net and online churches because they can't find solid Bible based teaching in churches in their area. Many of them came to faith because of apologetic minorities and Bible studies and online bible teachings. They are very Beren like and seek to know and understand the Bible and get deep Bible studies and teachings directly from the Word.

There is this whole thriving new wing of Christianity of all ages, but since they are mostly non denominational you never hear about them and you just hear how attendance in the classic denominations is falling. But there is this big divide between that older generation and the exploding new generation of believers because the older folks do not even know about them unless they are in their pews next to them.

I hear the same things from the newer believers all the time, they want a local chruch to join but they feel like most of them do not really teach from the Bible and instead mostly teach denominational traditions. They get mostly "prosperity gospel" messages, Joel Olsteen style services and way too much of a focus on presentation, show and raw membership numbers. So they stick mostly to sound Bible teachers with a strong online ministry and teachings.

Well put on the Denomination of Churches. And, since nearly all have strayed from their original charter the Bible is the only thing that has remained a constant even if they don’t follow it.

I’m sure there is a reason why men not women are supposed to be the leaders of a Congregation. It was put in the Bible for a reason. And while we know that the Letters Community are by their very nature living in sin it doesn’t and shouldn’t stop them from attending. Church is for sinners to come and see if they can rectify their ways. Sin should NEVER be celebrated and definitely NEVER be part of the leadership as they in no way meet the qualifications as laid forth in the NT.

(07-09-2023 07:43 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Well put on the Denomination of Churches. And, since nearly all have strayed from their original charter the Bible is the only thing that has remained a constant even if they don’t follow it.

I’m sure there is a reason why men not women are supposed to be the leaders of a Congregation. It was put in the Bible for a reason. And while we know that the Letters Community are by their very nature living in sin it doesn’t and shouldn’t stop them from attending. Church is for sinners to come and see if they can rectify their ways. Sin should NEVER be celebrated and definitely NEVER be part of the leadership as they in no way meet the qualifications as laid forth in the NT.

Amen.

One of the reasons for the NT teaching on men being the authority in church is because its a picture of Christ and the church and a picture of God's plan of a man being the head of the family and the stronger of the two vessels.

Men are suppose to glorify Christ in their roles as men and women are suppose to glorify Christ in their roles as women. This was His plan for mankind in both church and in marriage since the foundation of the world. The idea that its an insult or some kind of sexism/discrimination against woman for them to glorify God in the manner He has designed them for and to do so is a lie and a deception straight from the father of lies himself.

Satan desires to reject and rebel against everything God commands and designs in order to sow chaos and deceive us. Feminism is one of Satan's greatest tools of the modern age to sent the church and His people astray and to set the world in direct opposition to God's will.

Feminism is based on pride and self-centeredness. Its all about "ME" and what I can do to glorify myself as a woman.

Its in direct opposition to everything the Bible teaches. As Christians, we are supposed to be a living sacrifice to God, denying ourselves, our pride and our ego to serve God and each other in His image through His plan. How can you humble yourself and offer your life as a spiritual sacrifice to God if you are too busy focusing on yourself and your own status, pride and ego?

These things are in direct opposition to each other.

The same thing goes for men, we are not here to glorify ourselves and our pride and ego, we are here to offer our lives as a spiritual sacrifice to God by serving Him and serving each other as He intended.

Of course Satan despises all of this. So just as he did in the garden, he goes to the woman and devices her into rejecting the role God has for her and in turn uses her to convince the man to do the same thing and reject the role God has for both him and her. He turns the whole thing completely upside down and devices both the man and woman into believing the very role and purpose God has design each of us for in church and marriage is evil and must be rejected.

Its the same thing with transgenderism and LGBTQ ideology.

God designed us as male and female, made in His image and setting us above all else in physical creation. But modern woke ideology says you should reject Gods image, design and purposes for us and recreate yourself in your own image or ideal.

Its about rejecting our Creator at every turn possible and blaspheming Him at the highest levels we can conceive of.

As I have posted before, the the WORST and most blasphemous sins in the Bible, the very things God hates the most are what our modern woke culture CELEBRATES and glorifies above all else in our culture.

How can people think this is just a coincidence?

If you sit down and create a list of the most egregious and abhorrent sins the Bible that God hates the most and sees as the worst abominations, THOSE ARE THE VERY THINGS HOLLYWOOD AND THE WOKE PROGRESSIVE CULTURE WORSHIPS AND CELEBRATES AND GLORIFIES THE MOST in 2023.

(07-09-2023 07:12 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  The older generation needs to let go of the denominational chains. Hanging on so tightly to these silly little names and divisions does the Body of Christ no good. All it does is divide people up, when we are instructed by Christ and all the Apostles to be as ONE BODY. Yet most of Christianity in America does just the opposite.

I will never understand the need to identity as a member/follower of a particular denomination over just being a Bible believing Christian. But many old school Christians identify as their denomination first and foremost. ALL their beliefs have to flow directly from that branch and all other thoughts and views must be rejected. Its very much like a political identity.

Most new and or young Christians today have no denominational ties, in fact very few new converts actually come through these classical denominations and altar calls now. Since it just the older generation hanging on, their numbers continue to dwindle more and more.

Meanwhile, there is a whole new generation (of all ages actually) of Bible believing Christians out there who commune through the net and online churches because they can't find solid Bible based teaching in churches in their area. Many of them came to faith because of apologetic minorities and Bible studies and online bible teachings. They are very Beren like and seek to know and understand the Bible and get deep Bible studies and teachings directly from the Word.

There is this whole thriving new wing of Christianity of all ages, but since they are mostly non denominational you never hear about them and you just hear how attendance in the classic denominations is falling. But there is this big divide between that older generation and the exploding new generation of believers because the older folks do not even know about them unless they are in their pews next to them.

I hear the same things from the newer believers all the time, they want a local chruch to join but they feel like most of them do not really teach from the Bible and instead mostly teach denominational traditions. They get mostly "prosperity gospel" messages, Joel Olsteen style services and way too much of a focus on presentation, show and raw membership numbers. So they stick mostly to sound Bible teachers with a strong online ministry and teachings.

You have your traditions. Other people have theirs. Why do you feel the need to denigrate those of others? Tradition and ritual help to make religion a regular part of your life instead of an Easter/Christmas thing. Your way of doing things doesn't appeal to everyone. There is one Word, but not one way to worship.

All people should be welcome in church.

However, church leadership should not embrace the various sins of members or lift them up in an effort to align your church with any of those sins.

Imagine a church saying we accept and recognize murderers. We embrace and support murder.

Sin is sin.

(07-09-2023 12:42 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  All people should be welcome in church.
However, church leadership should not embrace the various sins of members or lift them up in an effort to align your church with any of those sins.

This.

Gay people, among others, should be welcomed. Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all nations." But He also said, "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20) The idea that we need gay priests in order to be able to communicate and interact with gay members, is absurd. And the idea that we need gay bishops is absurd squared.

(07-09-2023 06:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-09-2023 12:42 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  All people should be welcome in church.
However, church leadership should not embrace the various sins of members or lift them up in an effort to align your church with any of those sins.

This.

Gay people, among others, should be welcomed. Jesus said, "Go and make disciples of all nations." But He also said, "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20) The idea that we need gay priests in order to be able to communicate and interact with gay members, is absurd. And the idea that we need gay bishops is absurd squared.

I love John 8:7, the cast the first stone story. Of course, at the end, he told her to go and sin no more.

Churches should have a big tent when it comes to reaching out to LGBTQIA+ people. But they shouldn't be ringmasters.

(07-09-2023 11:07 AM)bullet Wrote:  You have your traditions. Other people have theirs. Why do you feel the need to denigrate those of others? Tradition and ritual help to make religion a regular part of your life instead of an Easter/Christmas thing. Your way of doing things doesn't appeal to everyone. There is one Word, but not one way to worship.

Why on earth do you say I am denigrating people?

I didn't denigrate anyone Bullet, I denigrated the idea of Christians dividing themselves against one another as they traditionally do. I denigrated the idea of placing tradition in the place of the Word of God. Surely you can see the difference. This has nothing to do with attacking and denigrating people, its just about teaching Biblical doctrine over man made traditions.

You said in one post that LGBTQ should be welcome to come to church (they should) but you also got offended by the idea of no longer diving Christians up into these silly little groups and identifying as a denomination first and foremost. Can you not see the contradiction there?

You can go to any public setting and talk about the Bible and many of the people will instantly trying to label you as part of a denomination. They literally do not listen to what you are saying, they just listen to try and figure out what denomination they are going to label you with. The moment they decide on a denominational label, they instantly dismiss everything you say from that moment on because its not their denomination. Its the ultimate team sport for believers. Is that how Christians should treat each other? Is that the Christianity Jesus or Paul taught?

I'm just asking you to let down your defenses and hear what Jesus said on this.


Mark 7:5-9

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men....

He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

and again He repeats in verse 13:

"making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down."


Now you tell me, should we hold to our traditions or should we hold to the Word of God? We don't have to agree on every single little thing. But dividing ourselves against each other for the sake of holding on to man made traditions goes against everything Jesus and the Bible teaches on this.