(01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?

They share the same TV market as Colorado Buffs. (Denver) While they meet the R-1 requirement that PAC12 has, they do not move the needle for a new PAC12 TV deal.

(01-24-2023 04:48 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  

(01-20-2023 06:30 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  Is Colorado State a viable option for the PAC? If so, why haven't they been discussed? Although Colorado State wouldn't bring anything that Colorado already hasn't, a San Diego State/Colorado State pairing to the PAC would make more sense than a San Diego State/SMU pairing. In addition, the Washington State legislature recently put forward a resolution that if passed, would force Washington and Washington State have to go to the same conference together. If that happens, whose to say Oregon, Arizona, and potentially Colorado wouldn't do the same?

They share the same TV market as Colorado Buffs. (Denver) While they meet the R-1 requirement that PAC12 has, they do not move the needle for a new PAC12 TV deal.

And Air Force. Heck, I would venture to guess CSU is behind the Broncos, Buffs, and Falcons in their own market.

(01-24-2023 02:24 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Also, I feel bad for Utah State. They never get a mention despite outperforming CSU on the field. From a research perspective, they’re behind CSU but by NSF metrics are still ahead of Oregon State, Oregon, Hawaii, and SDSU not to mention TTU, KSU, OKSU, Baylor, TCU, and Houston as well as other P5 publics like TN, Neb, LSU, Ark, Bama, SCar, etc. They’ll probably pass ISU and WSU up in the next 5 years as well.

If the PAC12 had formed in different order, CSU and USU would have just as much a place at the table as OrSU and WSU.

If the PAC goes big, a later wave of expansion that included, say, Wyoming would surely bring Colorado State and Utah State into the picture as well.

(01-22-2023 02:23 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 07:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Colorado/Colorado St is an enigma. Colorado is the 21st largest state by population

South Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky, Oregon, Oklahoma, Utah, Iowa, Mississippi, and Kansas are all smaller and support 2 programs but somehow the Rocky Mountain State can’t.

I think it stems from the fact that Colorado wasn’t required to take care of Colorado St by the state legislature. The Buffalos got to the Big 6 without them all the way back in the 40s so the Rams didn’t have the state’s #1 school advocating for them and bringing them along for the ride.

Colorado St’s program was in such a weak condition, they weren’t even invited to be part of the original WAC in the early 60s.

Being the land grant as opposed to the flagship also hurt because Colorado ended up in the Big 12, where academics were important but not a deal breaker. For a conference like the PAC 10, where academics WERE a deal breaker, they weren’t going to try and carve out a presence with the state’s #2 academic school—they wanted #1.

Had Colorado St’s athletics been stronger, maybe they could have been the no brainer replacement for the Buffalos, but since they weren’t, there was no impetus to try and hang on to a presence in the state.

Colorado wasn't always so populated. They were tied with Kansas in population in 1970. The locals will tell you they got hammered with white flight from California, but I don't know how true that is. I do know bringing in a bunch of people from outside the state doesn't help the local college's fanbase get any bigger, especially when the teams are way down the list of sports options like CSU athletics is.

(01-21-2023 04:43 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(01-21-2023 07:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  South Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky, Oregon, Oklahoma, Utah, Iowa, Mississippi, and Kansas are all smaller and support 2 programs but somehow the Rocky Mountain State can’t.

To be fair, it was said the Big XII did approach Air Force about potential membership with a group of others like Pitt and Arkansas. All of them turned down the Big XII. How legit that rumor was...take it or leave it.

AFA football *could* probably hang in several of the major conferences. But, football only. They aren't playing in any CCG's though. It's the other sports, especially basketball, where they may as well be in the Patriot.

I thought the story was the Big 8 went to offer Arkansas in the late 70s or early 80s, and it fell apart, likely due to Nebraska not wanting them. Really shortsighted on the Huskers' part if true. I'd imagine them offering an SEC-affiliated Arkansas would end with a belly laugh and Arkansas hanging up.

Frank Broyles apparently talked with the Big 8 about membership in 1979, but the Big 8 wasn’t interested.

Deloss Dodds supposedly made an attempt to get Arkansas to join the Big 12 after Texas A&M left. If that’s really even true, I’m sure Deloss was laughed off the phone.

(01-24-2023 09:17 PM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 02:24 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  Also, I feel bad for Utah State. They never get a mention despite outperforming CSU on the field. From a research perspective, they’re behind CSU but by NSF metrics are still ahead of Oregon State, Oregon, Hawaii, and SDSU not to mention TTU, KSU, OKSU, Baylor, TCU, and Houston as well as other P5 publics like TN, Neb, LSU, Ark, Bama, SCar, etc. They’ll probably pass ISU and WSU up in the next 5 years as well.

If the PAC12 had formed in different order, CSU and USU would have just as much a place at the table as OrSU and WSU.

If the PAC goes big, a later wave of expansion that included, say, Wyoming would surely bring Colorado State and Utah State into the picture as well.

I do not think Wyoming would be considered, small TV market, R2. Currently there are only a handful of G5 teams that are R-1:Colorado State University, Rice University, Tulane University, University of Hawaii, Memphis, UNLV, Nevada, New Mexico, South Florida, UTEP, UTSA, Utah State. R2s that may get a look are: Boise State, SDSU, Fresno ST, SMU, Tulsa


Those R-1/R-2 with TV markets that would help the PAC12 media deal:

MARKET.............................TV HOUSEHOLDS (2021–22)......CONF FAN AFFILIATIONS
SMU(R2) #5 Dallas-Fort Worth........2,962,520............................SEC, Big 12
RICE(R1) #8 Houston.....................2,569,900...........................SEC, Big 12
SDSU(R2) #27 San Diego...............1,132,300............................N/A
UTSA(R1) #31 San Antonio.............1,031,180............................SEC, Big 12
UNLV(R1) #40 Las Vegas.................833,510...............................N/A
N. Mexico(R1) #48 Albuquerque.......716,800...............................N/A
Memphis(R2) #51 Memphis.............619,610...............................SEC
Fresno ST(R2) #55 Fresno..............607,200................................Pac-12, Big Ten
Tulsa(R2) #61Tulsa........................552,980................................Big 12, SEC
Hawaii(R1)#67 Honolulu.................464,090................................N/A

They question becomes does the PAC12 expand and if so will they consider R2s? Do they value the size of the TV market over current CONF FAN AFFILIATIONS or would they want to gain untapped TV markets?

Link
https://swimswam.com/analyzing-the-new-n...n-markets/

(01-25-2023 07:31 AM)GTFletch Wrote:  Those R-1/R-2 with TV markets that would help the PAC12 media deal:

MARKET.............................TV HOUSEHOLDS (2021–22)......CONF FAN AFFILIATIONS
SMU(R2) #5 Dallas-Fort Worth........2,962,520............................SEC, Big 12
RICE(R1) #8 Houston.....................2,569,900...........................SEC, Big 12
SDSU(R2) #27 San Diego...............1,132,300............................N/A
UNLV(R1) #40 Las Vegas.................833,510...............................N/A
Link
https://swimswam.com/analyzing-the-new-n...n-markets/

Just looking thru that list, SMU+Rice+SDSU+UNLV could be a really interesting group of expansion candidates. We've seen the Pac-12 make bold media decisions in the past, maybe the Pac-12 will surprise us with an aggressive move here designed to invest in these expansion opportunities and position themselves for a future outside the P2. Frankly, that's the same playbook that the Big XII finally took, so maybe it's even less crazy than we think.

Just because a school is located in a big TV market does not mean people actually watch or attend their games.

(01-25-2023 09:39 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  Just because a school is located in a big TV market does not mean people actually watch or attend their games.

No, but the potential is greater, and the urbanization trend since the 20s in this country isn't reversing, so schools in large urban areas will continue to be important long-term.

I'm sure when the Arizona schools were added to the Pac-12, very few people in Arizona had an "Arizona identity" or much real attachment to the university. But simply being in a major conference helped both schools develop their fanbase. In the same way, UNLV's fanbase might grow significantly over the next decade if they're in the Pac-12.

(01-25-2023 10:04 AM)Eichorst Wrote:  

(01-25-2023 09:39 AM)Big Frog II Wrote:  Just because a school is located in a big TV market does not mean people actually watch or attend their games.

No, but the potential is greater, and the urbanization trend since the 20s in this country isn't reversing, so schools in large urban areas will continue to be important long-term.

I'm sure when the Arizona schools were added to the Pac-12, very few people in Arizona had an "Arizona identity" or much real attachment to the university. But simply being in a major conference helped both schools develop their fanbase. In the same way, UNLV's fanbase might grow significantly over the next decade if they're in the Pac-12.

ASU's fanbase was already solid due to Kush's success. You're comparing apples and oranges IMO. Would P5 membership help? Sure. However the home team always matters more.