(01-23-2023 04:22 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Let schools decide what works for them...

As long as the “important” teams get what they want

(01-23-2023 04:22 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Let schools decide what works for them...

They generally do, that’s how conferences are formed.

If all the FCS schools decide to rearrange their conferences, they are free to do so. Of course one school making demands of others doesn’t always work out.

(01-23-2023 04:30 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 04:22 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Let schools decide what works for them...

They generally do, that’s how conferences are formed.

If all the FCS schools decide to rearrange their conferences, they are free to do so. Of course one school making demands of others doesn’t always work out.

Correct. So not sure the point of this thread.

(01-23-2023 03:53 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 07:43 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  To start bring all the HBCU’s together under one umbrella conference

Split into three divisions:
Atlantic: Del State, Hampton, Howard, Morgan, Norfolk, NC AT, NC Central
Southwest: Bama AM, Bama State, B-C, Fla AM, Miss Valley, SC State, Tenn State
Southeast: Alcorn, Pine Bluff, Grambling, Jackson St, PVAMU, Southern, Texas Sthn

Three champs plus best other play in semi and winners play in Celebration Bowl.

Next assume ASUN-WAC stay at FCS and join them with Big Sky, CAA & MVFL

upper tier playoff

After Hampton & NC AT are gone we have:
CAA 13 Big Sky 12 MVFL 12 ASUN_WAC 10 (with UTRGV)

Move Campbell or Elon to ASUN-WAC or both and switch EKU to CAA, you could also juggle others like Utah Tech/SUU and NAU/UNC but not essential.

Finally add SEMO to ASUN-WAC and you get 4 conferences of 12 teams

Champions get 1st Round bye, next 8 seeded for 12 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Then for lower tier play off:

NEC (8), OVC (8) (minus TSU & SEMO), Patriot (7), SoCon (9), Southland (8)
Move VMI to Patriot for 5 conferences of 8 plus Pioneer (11)

5 champions get 1st Round bye, Pioneer champion plus next 5 seeded for 11 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Ivy stays outside post season

ASUN/WAC is a bottom feeder league. Southland is a stronger league, even with the moves you mention.

Maybe, but ASUN/WAC wants FBS, many think that unlikely, in this version they become a Major FCS, you basically end up with P5, G5, FCS P4 and FCS G5/6, the Southland teams haven’t shown the same ambition. So I gave A/W the benefit.

Maybe I should have stopped at Big Sky, CAA and MVFC, but to say the Southland is much stronger, they only had 2 teams with winning records, though I admit IUW were excellent in offense, if they improve on Defense then maybe they could reach Frisco next year.

Also Massey has Asun at 3 SoCon 5 WAC 6………………Southland 10

(01-23-2023 05:14 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  Maybe, but ASUN/WAC wants FBS, many think that unlikely, in this version they become a Major FCS, you basically end up with P5, G5, FCS P4 and FCS G5/6, the Southland teams haven’t shown the same ambition. So I gave A/W the benefit.

Maybe I should have stopped at Big Sky, CAA and MVFC, but to say the Southland is much stronger, they only had 2 teams with winning records, though I admit IUW were excellent in offense, if they improve on Defense then maybe they could reach Frisco next year.

Also Massey has Asun at 3 SoCon 5 WAC 6………………Southland 10

Not sure I see a need to split "major fcs" from "minor fcs"

The current system works pretty well, and the major's get the lions share of the playoff bids. If anything, greater participation by the Ivy and HBCU conferences might help increase interest. If there is a concern about competitiveness, raise the fcs requirements for minimum scholarships, etc.

IUW gave a subpar NDSU team all they could handle this year, so maybe they or another SLC team will make it next year. No need to demote anyone to a "minor fcs" league.

(01-23-2023 03:53 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 07:43 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  To start bring all the HBCU’s together under one umbrella conference

Split into three divisions:
Atlantic: Del State, Hampton, Howard, Morgan, Norfolk, NC AT, NC Central
Southwest: Bama AM, Bama State, B-C, Fla AM, Miss Valley, SC State, Tenn State
Southeast: Alcorn, Pine Bluff, Grambling, Jackson St, PVAMU, Southern, Texas Sthn

Three champs plus best other play in semi and winners play in Celebration Bowl.

Next assume ASUN-WAC stay at FCS and join them with Big Sky, CAA & MVFL

upper tier playoff

After Hampton & NC AT are gone we have:
CAA 13 Big Sky 12 MVFL 12 ASUN_WAC 10 (with UTRGV)

Move Campbell or Elon to ASUN-WAC or both and switch EKU to CAA, you could also juggle others like Utah Tech/SUU and NAU/UNC but not essential.

Finally add SEMO to ASUN-WAC and you get 4 conferences of 12 teams

Champions get 1st Round bye, next 8 seeded for 12 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Then for lower tier play off:

NEC (8), OVC (8) (minus TSU & SEMO), Patriot (7), SoCon (9), Southland (8)
Move VMI to Patriot for 5 conferences of 8 plus Pioneer (11)

5 champions get 1st Round bye, Pioneer champion plus next 5 seeded for 11 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Ivy stays outside post season

ASUN/WAC is a bottom feeder league. Southland is a stronger league, even with the moves you mention.

Nope...

(01-23-2023 05:38 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:14 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  Maybe, but ASUN/WAC wants FBS, many think that unlikely, in this version they become a Major FCS, you basically end up with P5, G5, FCS P4 and FCS G5/6, the Southland teams haven’t shown the same ambition. So I gave A/W the benefit.

Maybe I should have stopped at Big Sky, CAA and MVFC, but to say the Southland is much stronger, they only had 2 teams with winning records, though I admit IUW were excellent in offense, if they improve on Defense then maybe they could reach Frisco next year.

Also Massey has Asun at 3 SoCon 5 WAC 6………………Southland 10

Not sure I see a need to split "major fcs" from "minor fcs"

The current system works pretty well, and the major's get the lions share of the playoff bids. If anything, greater participation by the Ivy and HBCU conferences might help increase interest. If there is a concern about competitiveness, raise the fcs requirements for minimum scholarships, etc.

IUW gave a subpar NDSU team all they could handle this year, so maybe they or another SLC team will make it next year. No need to demote anyone to a "minor fcs" league.

At present ASUN/WAC are openly trying to move to FCS, many comments say that if this happened then either A: P5 will split from G5 or B: Other conferences will follow, so in this admittedly fantasy world I was looking at some middle ground where those conferences could sit without causing major upheaval.

The added benefit would be the Southland, SoCon etc would have a chance at national title rather than the usual suspects, however it’s pure fantasy and I agree that including SWAC and MEAC champs would be better, but at present the celebration bowl is more valuable.

(01-23-2023 07:30 PM)lion1983 Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 03:53 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 07:43 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  To start bring all the HBCU’s together under one umbrella conference

Split into three divisions:
Atlantic: Del State, Hampton, Howard, Morgan, Norfolk, NC AT, NC Central
Southwest: Bama AM, Bama State, B-C, Fla AM, Miss Valley, SC State, Tenn State
Southeast: Alcorn, Pine Bluff, Grambling, Jackson St, PVAMU, Southern, Texas Sthn

Three champs plus best other play in semi and winners play in Celebration Bowl.

Next assume ASUN-WAC stay at FCS and join them with Big Sky, CAA & MVFL

upper tier playoff

After Hampton & NC AT are gone we have:
CAA 13 Big Sky 12 MVFL 12 ASUN_WAC 10 (with UTRGV)

Move Campbell or Elon to ASUN-WAC or both and switch EKU to CAA, you could also juggle others like Utah Tech/SUU and NAU/UNC but not essential.

Finally add SEMO to ASUN-WAC and you get 4 conferences of 12 teams

Champions get 1st Round bye, next 8 seeded for 12 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Then for lower tier play off:

NEC (8), OVC (8) (minus TSU & SEMO), Patriot (7), SoCon (9), Southland (8)
Move VMI to Patriot for 5 conferences of 8 plus Pioneer (11)

5 champions get 1st Round bye, Pioneer champion plus next 5 seeded for 11 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Ivy stays outside post season

ASUN/WAC is a bottom feeder league. Southland is a stronger league, even with the moves you mention.

Nope...

How did the ASUN/WAC do in the playoffs this year?

(01-23-2023 07:43 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  To start bring all the HBCU’s together under one umbrella conference

Split into three divisions:
Atlantic: Del State, Hampton, Howard, Morgan, Norfolk, NC AT, NC Central
Southwest: Bama AM, Bama State, B-C, Fla AM, Miss Valley, SC State, Tenn State
Southeast: Alcorn, Pine Bluff, Grambling, Jackson St, PVAMU, Southern, Texas Sthn

Three champs plus best other play in semi and winners play in Celebration Bowl.

Next assume ASUN-WAC stay at FCS and join them with Big Sky, CAA & MVFL

upper tier playoff

After Hampton & NC AT are gone we have:
CAA 13 Big Sky 12 MVFL 12 ASUN_WAC 10 (with UTRGV)

Move Campbell or Elon to ASUN-WAC or both and switch EKU to CAA, you could also juggle others like Utah Tech/SUU and NAU/UNC but not essential.

Finally add SEMO to ASUN-WAC and you get 4 conferences of 12 teams

Champions get 1st Round bye, next 8 seeded for 12 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Then for lower tier play off:

NEC (8), OVC (8) (minus TSU & SEMO), Patriot (7), SoCon (9), Southland (8)
Move VMI to Patriot for 5 conferences of 8 plus Pioneer (11)

5 champions get 1st Round bye, Pioneer champion plus next 5 seeded for 11 team playoff (or a simple 16/24 team playoff)

Ivy stays outside post season

I’ve always considered SoCon to be upper tier, myself.

Other than that, looks like a good setup.

(01-24-2023 01:52 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:38 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:14 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  Maybe, but ASUN/WAC wants FBS, many think that unlikely, in this version they become a Major FCS, you basically end up with P5, G5, FCS P4 and FCS G5/6, the Southland teams haven’t shown the same ambition. So I gave A/W the benefit.

Maybe I should have stopped at Big Sky, CAA and MVFC, but to say the Southland is much stronger, they only had 2 teams with winning records, though I admit IUW were excellent in offense, if they improve on Defense then maybe they could reach Frisco next year.

Also Massey has Asun at 3 SoCon 5 WAC 6………………Southland 10

Not sure I see a need to split "major fcs" from "minor fcs"

The current system works pretty well, and the major's get the lions share of the playoff bids. If anything, greater participation by the Ivy and HBCU conferences might help increase interest. If there is a concern about competitiveness, raise the fcs requirements for minimum scholarships, etc.

IUW gave a subpar NDSU team all they could handle this year, so maybe they or another SLC team will make it next year. No need to demote anyone to a "minor fcs" league.

At present ASUN/WAC are openly trying to move to FCS, many comments say that if this happened then either A: P5 will split from G5 or B: Other conferences will follow, so in this admittedly fantasy world I was looking at some middle ground where those conferences could sit without causing major upheaval.

The added benefit would be the Southland, SoCon etc would have a chance at national title rather than the usual suspects, however it’s pure fantasy and I agree that including SWAC and MEAC champs would be better, but at present the celebration bowl is more valuable.

Both of these conferences have produced past national FCS champions. I would suspect both conferences would be strongly opposed to being demoted to a lower tier, and rightfully so. The SoCon was dominant when App St was there. All dynasties eventually come to an end.

(01-24-2023 09:59 AM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 01:52 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:38 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:14 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  Maybe, but ASUN/WAC wants FBS, many think that unlikely, in this version they become a Major FCS, you basically end up with P5, G5, FCS P4 and FCS G5/6, the Southland teams haven’t shown the same ambition. So I gave A/W the benefit.

Maybe I should have stopped at Big Sky, CAA and MVFC, but to say the Southland is much stronger, they only had 2 teams with winning records, though I admit IUW were excellent in offense, if they improve on Defense then maybe they could reach Frisco next year.

Also Massey has Asun at 3 SoCon 5 WAC 6………………Southland 10

Not sure I see a need to split "major fcs" from "minor fcs"

The current system works pretty well, and the major's get the lions share of the playoff bids. If anything, greater participation by the Ivy and HBCU conferences might help increase interest. If there is a concern about competitiveness, raise the fcs requirements for minimum scholarships, etc.

IUW gave a subpar NDSU team all they could handle this year, so maybe they or another SLC team will make it next year. No need to demote anyone to a "minor fcs" league.

At present ASUN/WAC are openly trying to move to FCS, many comments say that if this happened then either A: P5 will split from G5 or B: Other conferences will follow, so in this admittedly fantasy world I was looking at some middle ground where those conferences could sit without causing major upheaval.

The added benefit would be the Southland, SoCon etc would have a chance at national title rather than the usual suspects, however it’s pure fantasy and I agree that including SWAC and MEAC champs would be better, but at present the celebration bowl is more valuable.

Both of these conferences have produced past national FCS champions. I would suspect both conferences would be strongly opposed to being demoted to a lower tier, and rightfully so. The SoCon was dominant when App St was there. All dynasties eventually come to an end.

True, but the only current team is Furman in 1988, others win and move on. Currently the Dakota’s and Montana teams have success and stay with the conference. Partly due to geography admittedly and that may change (possibly soon). Maybe they are happier being also rans most years and as you say all dynasties eventually fall, but. It was 2007 when App last won and Sam Houston has already moved conference twice since they took the title.

(01-24-2023 12:11 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 09:59 AM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 01:52 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:38 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:14 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  Maybe, but ASUN/WAC wants FBS, many think that unlikely, in this version they become a Major FCS, you basically end up with P5, G5, FCS P4 and FCS G5/6, the Southland teams haven’t shown the same ambition. So I gave A/W the benefit.

Maybe I should have stopped at Big Sky, CAA and MVFC, but to say the Southland is much stronger, they only had 2 teams with winning records, though I admit IUW were excellent in offense, if they improve on Defense then maybe they could reach Frisco next year.

Also Massey has Asun at 3 SoCon 5 WAC 6………………Southland 10

Not sure I see a need to split "major fcs" from "minor fcs"

The current system works pretty well, and the major's get the lions share of the playoff bids. If anything, greater participation by the Ivy and HBCU conferences might help increase interest. If there is a concern about competitiveness, raise the fcs requirements for minimum scholarships, etc.

IUW gave a subpar NDSU team all they could handle this year, so maybe they or another SLC team will make it next year. No need to demote anyone to a "minor fcs" league.

At present ASUN/WAC are openly trying to move to FCS, many comments say that if this happened then either A: P5 will split from G5 or B: Other conferences will follow, so in this admittedly fantasy world I was looking at some middle ground where those conferences could sit without causing major upheaval.

The added benefit would be the Southland, SoCon etc would have a chance at national title rather than the usual suspects, however it’s pure fantasy and I agree that including SWAC and MEAC champs would be better, but at present the celebration bowl is more valuable.

Both of these conferences have produced past national FCS champions. I would suspect both conferences would be strongly opposed to being demoted to a lower tier, and rightfully so. The SoCon was dominant when App St was there. All dynasties eventually come to an end.

True, but the only current team is Furman in 1988, others win and move on. Currently the Dakota’s and Montana teams have success and stay with the conference. Partly due to geography admittedly and that may change (possibly soon). Maybe they are happier being also rans most years and as you say all dynasties eventually fall, but. It was 2007 when App last won and Sam Houston has already moved conference twice since they took the title.

Still not seeing a case for declaring Major vs Minor FCS. If the Dakota's or Montana's move on, then what justification would there be to keep either Big Sky or MVFC as power conferences? Teams rise and fall over time. Montana was a bigger power than NDSU in the past, as was YSU. People almost forget YSU's 4 titles and 7 appearances.

The at large bids have been reallocated over time as teams in various conferences rise and fall. No reason to lock out conferences by arbitrarily splitting the division. If there was to be a division, it should be based on some type of qualifications, be it scholarships sponsored, funding, stadium size, etc. Declaring ASun-WAC a power conference because some of those schools want to jump is silly. They aren't even the strongest teams in FCS, nor the largest or best attended.

(01-24-2023 12:36 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 12:11 PM)Blue76 Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 09:59 AM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-24-2023 01:52 AM)Blue76 Wrote:  

(01-23-2023 05:38 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  Not sure I see a need to split "major fcs" from "minor fcs"

The current system works pretty well, and the major's get the lions share of the playoff bids. If anything, greater participation by the Ivy and HBCU conferences might help increase interest. If there is a concern about competitiveness, raise the fcs requirements for minimum scholarships, etc.

IUW gave a subpar NDSU team all they could handle this year, so maybe they or another SLC team will make it next year. No need to demote anyone to a "minor fcs" league.

At present ASUN/WAC are openly trying to move to FCS, many comments say that if this happened then either A: P5 will split from G5 or B: Other conferences will follow, so in this admittedly fantasy world I was looking at some middle ground where those conferences could sit without causing major upheaval.

The added benefit would be the Southland, SoCon etc would have a chance at national title rather than the usual suspects, however it’s pure fantasy and I agree that including SWAC and MEAC champs would be better, but at present the celebration bowl is more valuable.

Both of these conferences have produced past national FCS champions. I would suspect both conferences would be strongly opposed to being demoted to a lower tier, and rightfully so. The SoCon was dominant when App St was there. All dynasties eventually come to an end.

True, but the only current team is Furman in 1988, others win and move on. Currently the Dakota’s and Montana teams have success and stay with the conference. Partly due to geography admittedly and that may change (possibly soon). Maybe they are happier being also rans most years and as you say all dynasties eventually fall, but. It was 2007 when App last won and Sam Houston has already moved conference twice since they took the title.

Still not seeing a case for declaring Major vs Minor FCS. If the Dakota's or Montana's move on, then what justification would there be to keep either Big Sky or MVFC as power conferences? Teams rise and fall over time. Montana was a bigger power than NDSU in the past, as was YSU. People almost forget YSU's 4 titles and 7 appearances.

The at large bids have been reallocated over time as teams in various conferences rise and fall. No reason to lock out conferences by arbitrarily splitting the division. If there was to be a division, it should be based on some type of qualifications, be it scholarships sponsored, funding, stadium size, etc. Declaring ASun-WAC a power conference because some of those schools want to jump is silly. They aren't even the strongest teams in FCS, nor the largest or best attended.

You make a fair, point, but when was college football fair?, the P5s basically locked out the G5s the FBS/FCS split was that fair? Schools and Conferences often end up where they are by luck, Vandy lucked out being in SEC, Tulane had that chance but threw it away, no one knew that at the time. I’m sure SMU and Rice thought life was great in SWC. Stanford could be facing a similar future.

The point is at any moment iyou need to be in the right place at the right time, unless your Bama, Georgia, Texas, tOSU etc, for the smaller schools all you can do it put yourself out there and hopefully things will fall for you.

Right now the A/W are making all the right noises, 5 maybe 3 years ago my 4th choice would have been SoCon or maybe Southland. But as the question was asked in 2023 my choice was different, just like 1978 when the split occurred was a moment in time.

Obviously non of this will actually happen, but if the ASUN/WAC does move to FBS and if that should trigger a P5+ exit, then who knows what the future landscape will be, lots of ifs there to keep us interested.

Personally don't feel the ASun/WAC belongs in FBS, nor has done anything special to deserve some special "power" status in FCS. If their teams perform, they can earn more bids just like the other current FCS "powers"

ASun/WAC is just an average hodgepodge set of FCS teams that decided they want FBS status. If it's granted to them, might as well merge in all of FCS, at which point the FBS product is greatly diminished.

I'd prefer to see concrete, enforced boundaries. Things like attendance, stadium size, funding, etc. I'd be 100% on board with the 15k attendance rule being enforced. Not much different than high schools being divided into classifications of A, AA, AAA, etc.

(01-24-2023 01:30 PM)JMURocks Wrote:  Personally don't feel the ASun/WAC belongs in FBS, nor has done anything special to deserve some special "power" status in FCS. If their teams perform, they can earn more bids just like the other current FCS "powers"

ASun/WAC is just an average hodgepodge set of FCS teams that decided they want FBS status. If it's granted to them, might as well merge in all of FCS, at which point the FBS product is greatly diminished.

I'd prefer to see concrete, enforced boundaries. Things like attendance, stadium size, funding, etc. I'd be 100% on board with the 15k attendance rule being enforced. Not much different than high schools being divided into classifications of A, AA, AAA, etc.

Agreed in principle, what attendance actually means is the question, tickets sold, number actually in stadium, many things can be circumnavigated, also should schools have their own on campus stadium, lots of things to work out. Plus unless you have football only conferences, would anyone be happy kicking out a great basketball school over football attendance?

Here is the thing. The WACsun is trying to go FBS because THEY WANT IT. I'm sure if the Big Sky or the CAA or MVFC wanted it they would have attempted it. They aren't saying hey we are better than everyone so please let us be FBS or anything special. They think they have a shot so they are taking it.

If they didn't have a realistic shot I'm sure the snobby rich leaders would have already said heck no you aren't joking us.

It may sound insane, but I would merge the SoCon with the Southland under one banner: the SoCon. And the Ivy League definitely needs to be a part of the playoffs, IMO.

(01-25-2023 02:44 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  It may sound insane, but I would merge the SoCon with the Southland under one banner: the SoCon. And the Ivy League definitely needs to be a part of the playoffs, IMO.

I agree with you that the Ivy League should be involved in the playoffs. I would take it a step further and say that the HBCU conferences (MEAC, SWAC) need to participate in the playoffs as well. Where I disagree with you is were you suggested that the Southern Conference and the Southland Conference need to merge into one conference. Merging those two schools would expand the conference footprint from Virginia to Texas. Logistically, It may work in the SEC, but not in the FCS.

To clear something up about the ASUN/WAC football alliance, even 90+%of the fans of these schools think FBS is ambitious. The problem for the schools, and what most people seem to be missing or ignoring is, they just had a big group of peer schools and regional or historical rivals move to FBS, with the potential for more. That's a business nightmare in some ways. So, in order to at least have a chance at home and home games with these schools and keep alum and donors happy, they have to make an honest effort to get on the same level.

Will it happen? It's got to be better odds than no for it to make it this far IMHO. Is it the best thing for the schools? That will be determined in time.