(12-12-2022 08:07 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I think the combo here for the American is Army+AFA if SDSU is added to the PAC 12. As far as the scheduling, Army would play protected rivals Navy and AFA in divisionless scheduling. I also think Army/Navy will lose its exclusive weekend if this is the case. I think Black Friday is the day to play it, which would free up the second weekend of December for 1st round campus games. Otherwise, play the game Wednesday night in prime time on Thanksgiving Eve. That is, if Army is seriously considering dropping Independence.

SiriusXM ESPNU Radio did several of their shows from the Army-Navy Radio Row Friday. So I was listening to the app while working most of the day. Mainly background noise for non A-N bits, definitely had it off for stretches. So I don't remember which show this was...

Whatever show it was, they had both the Army and the Navy radio voices on for a segment. Navy PxP Pete Medhurst said he had specifically asked Chet Gladchuk for perspective from his seat on the CFP Committee, and Chet said that none of the paths or structures or schedules they are looking at for the expanded 12-team playoff in 2024-25 or in any future contract would impact the second Saturday in December.

I'm sure that will be disappointing to many here.

(12-12-2022 03:27 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:25 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

Navy's issues go well beyond conferences at this point. Being legally prohibited from NIL and having unique admissions standards puts them at a pretty harsh disadvantage. Niumatalolo's last interview before getting the boot doesn't seem to give off a whole lot of confidence in the future of service academy football at the FBS level.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-landscape

Would the service academies be better off downgrading to the FCS?

No, but their schedule needs to be loaded with comparable universities or lower skilled level FBS schools/conference. From the P5 only play the Vandies, Cals and Dukes of the P5 world. Not many of these schools but they are spread across the country to showcase the academy brands in all parts of the country.

If a conference is chosen, it needs to be as wide spread as possible and good representation of areas who provide the most amount of enlisted soldiers. The amount of OOC games should be a big consideration to allow the ability to play in areas not provided by a conference.

Side question, are Academy athletes considered on athletic scholarship? If not why can they be FBS but Ivys cant because theirs are considered academic/merit scholarships?

(12-12-2022 03:25 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

Navy's issues go well beyond conferences at this point. Being legally prohibited from NIL and having unique admissions standards puts them at a pretty harsh disadvantage. Niumatalolo's last interview before getting the boot doesn't seem to give off a whole lot of confidence in the future of service academy football at the FBS level.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-landscape

I thought his comments were kind of along the lines of excuse-making. I mean, since when has Navy recruited players who were in line to receive NIL or were concerned about the transfer portal? You join the Naval (or Army or AFA) Academy to be a military officer, not play football.

(12-12-2022 08:28 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  Side question, are Academy athletes considered on athletic scholarship? If not why can they be FBS but Ivys cant because theirs are considered academic/merit scholarships?

Because there is a Service Academies exception:

Quote:20.10.9.4 Additional Financial Aid Requirements. [FBS] The institution shall satisfy the following additional financial aid requirements: (Adopted: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)
(a) Provide an average of at least 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of overall football grants-in-aid per year during a rolling two-year period; and
(b) Annually offer a minimum of 200 athletics grants-in-aids or expend at least $4 million on grants-in-aid to student-athletes in athletics programs.
20.10.9.4.1 Type of Financial Aid Counted. [FBS] The institution shall count only athletically related financial aid awarded to counters (as defined in Bylaw 15.02.3). (Adopted: 3/10/04 effective 8/1/04)
20.10.9.4.2 Exception -- National Service Academies. [FBS] The national service academies are exempt from all financial aid requirements set forth in Bylaw 20.10.9. (Adopted: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/04)

(12-12-2022 08:28 AM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:27 AM)andybible1995 Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:25 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

Navy's issues go well beyond conferences at this point. Being legally prohibited from NIL and having unique admissions standards puts them at a pretty harsh disadvantage. Niumatalolo's last interview before getting the boot doesn't seem to give off a whole lot of confidence in the future of service academy football at the FBS level.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-landscape

Would the service academies be better off downgrading to the FCS?

No, but their schedule needs to be loaded with comparable universities or lower skilled level FBS schools/conference. From the P5 only play the Vandies, Cals and Dukes of the P5 world. Not many of these schools but they are spread across the country to showcase the academy brands in all parts of the country.

If a conference is chosen, it needs to be as wide spread as possible and good representation of areas who provide the most amount of enlisted soldiers. The amount of OOC games should be a big consideration to allow the ability to play in areas not provided by a conference.

Side question, are Academy athletes considered on athletic scholarship? If not why can they be FBS but Ivys cant because theirs are considered academic/merit scholarships?

Quick response to the last question -- no, service academy student-athletes are not on athletic scholarships. They are on exactly the same full ride as every other midshipman/cadet.
They don't sign an NLI - they're signing something fancy at their HS signing day hullaballoo, but is isn't a binding NLI. If they go to the Prep School, they're fair game for any program coming back after them (that was actually the recruiting violations Air Force is on probation for -- talking to their Prep School players in a recruiting dead period, and they are just recruits like any HS senior so that was the violation).
Flip side is with zero athletic scholarships we never hit 25 in a class or 85 total. Big classes and big rosters account for attrition and give us full scout teams and JV for development.

edit - I was going to say that I couldn't quote chapter and verse on the exception, but BruceMcF already did that for us.

(12-12-2022 08:16 AM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 08:07 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  I think the combo here for the American is Army+AFA if SDSU is added to the PAC 12. As far as the scheduling, Army would play protected rivals Navy and AFA in divisionless scheduling. I also think Army/Navy will lose its exclusive weekend if this is the case. I think Black Friday is the day to play it, which would free up the second weekend of December for 1st round campus games. Otherwise, play the game Wednesday night in prime time on Thanksgiving Eve. That is, if Army is seriously considering dropping Independence.

SiriusXM ESPNU Radio did several of their shows from the Army-Navy Radio Row Friday. So I was listening to the app while working most of the day. Mainly background noise for non A-N bits, definitely had it off for stretches. So I don't remember which show this was...

Whatever show it was, they had both the Army and the Navy radio voices on for a segment. Navy PxP Pete Medhurst said he had specifically asked Chet Gladchuk for perspective from his seat on the CFP Committee, and Chet said that none of the paths or structures or schedules they are looking at for the expanded 12-team playoff in 2024-25 or in any future contract would impact the second Saturday in December.

I'm sure that will be disappointing to many here.

We already knew that because they have to work within the confines of the current contract. The problems arise in the subsequent years (I don't buy the bolded part above) if they don't like what they see in the 24' test run as far as fan turnout and general interest in the games. Nobody has committed to anything in 26'.

The only way I see the second Saturday protected is if it is mandated by all major Presidents that the athletes need that week off. That very well could happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

(12-12-2022 08:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:25 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

Navy's issues go well beyond conferences at this point. Being legally prohibited from NIL and having unique admissions standards puts them at a pretty harsh disadvantage. Niumatalolo's last interview before getting the boot doesn't seem to give off a whole lot of confidence in the future of service academy football at the FBS level.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-landscape

I thought his comments were kind of along the lines of excuse-making. I mean, since when has Navy recruited players who were in line to receive NIL or were concerned about the transfer portal? You join the Naval (or Army or AFA) Academy to be a military officer, not play football.

Meh. He was answering the questions asked.
The storyline was along the lines of the 2014 article BruceMcF pulled earlier in this thread -- toughest jobs in college football.

It isn't new.

Niumat's most frequently quoted quote over 15 years as a head coach is "Winning football games is hard. It's even harder at a service academy." (I actually always hear him in my mind saying "freakin' hard" strong language for the devout man.)

And, yes, NIL and transfer portal widen the gap between service academies and other programs. We certainly have losses, we always have, because the academies aren't for everyone, especially not if you get good film freshman and sophomore years and think you have NFL potential. And the transfer portal makes it even easier for these guys to leave. Johnny Hodges at TCU this year. Alohi Gilman at Notre Dame and now in the League. And obviously it's one way.
NIL - maybe that's minimal effect, but it isn't just the bluebloods - the coaches' quotes in the article say even the lower level FBS or FCS schools we're recruiting against can offer greater than the zero that we do.

Article seemed clear neither Niumat nor Monken were looking for sympathy.
These are all facts. It is what it is. Things can be reasons without making excuses.

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

I was coming back to this thread to discuss this and then got sucked in by other points. More posts on this board than the last few months combined, I think!

There are a few foundational things that I know about Navy and the football program and the strategic outlook that common sense says are true for Army too:
- The football program brings in $$ that fund an extensive athletic department, and the intercollegiate sports are fundamental to the institution's mission. The USNA mission statement starts "To develop Midshipmen morally, mentally, and physically..." Navy has 35 varsity intercollegiate sports after moving M/W Rugby up from Club this year (Women's Rugby won the national championship). NAAA also supports high level club sports like rugby was, Hockey still is.
- All in all, about 25% of the Brigade of Midshipmen have varsity sports to move them along in the physical mission. The rest of us who were merely intramural warriors benefit from facilities that benefit from NAAA dollars.
- That aspect, plus the overall "front porch" for recruiting midshipmen across the nation make it vital that football remains at the highest level of college football competition.
- Part of that is the football program having a national program. We recruit Midshipmen from all 50 states. Our football roster has 31 states represented. Fans are national/global. National institution needs a national football team at the highest level.

That was the main strategic driver behind the move in 2011-12 to join the (then) Big East. They could see the coming restructure of college football. The press conference with Marinatto and Gladchuk and Niumatalolo includes great quotes from both Chet and Ken - "When that storm comes, you gotta be inside a strong house."
In that aspect, Navy's position in the AAC -- even after the step down from BCS auto-qual to non-contract-bowl conference -- is way better than Army's or other non-ND independents. Army gets about $300k from the CFP, AAC schools have gotten a couple million a year. Navy has been in the NY6 conversation Thanksgiving weekend and afterwards multiple times. That only gets bigger in the 12-team playoff.
Schedules and bowls were also cited reasons. The name schools we might have wanted, even in a scheduling philosophy of 4 stretch games, 4 toss-ups, 4 should wins were no longer taking calls from Annapolis. Army is just now getting to that point after Monken finally started some sustained winning. That second FCS on this year's schedule is because Tennessee cancelled late. Navy is playing games that impact the NY6 in November; Army is playing a lot of UMass and UConn. Maybe that's still okay for them, but I wouldn't like that trend if I were there.
I loved our bowl setup as an independent, but the crystal balls might have been correct in saying it wouldn't last. We had bowl tie-ins year-by-year, contracted in advance from 2004-2016. Second order effects - if that sixth win came in October we started selling tickets in October. Army (and BYU before leaving Independence) today has Independence Bowl alternating with "pool." That's not the worst thing in the world. I liked our independent setup better than that, and I like our AAC bowl track record better than that.

When Navy joined the BCS AQ Big East there was a LOT of hand wringing that it was too tough, we'd never survive. We weren't complaining too hard when the intervening years led to Tulsa, Tulane, SMU -- these are institutions we like a lot, and, well, on our football level. We definitely loved the idea of the coast-to-coast Big East, with SDSU and Boise and sorry to see them go. But we're solid with the AAC lineup 2015-2022, and won't complain about he AAC lineup 2023- Do you think that Army wants something harder? If anything, they're gun-shy from previous CUSA foray.

In short - very little credence to your idea that Navy would have turned up our nose to this conference, when what we need is "safer than independence" in the future. "P6" as a strategic plan fits Navy's strategic goals to a T. That's true with UTSA/UAB/Rice/etc just as it was true with Cincinnati/Houston/UCF. And we still have a wide swath of the country rather than a regionalized profile

I mentioned the CFP money before. For Navy, our revenue sources in order are still:
Donations
Army-Navy game
Home game revenue (tix, parking, concessions, sponsorships)
AAC conference media money
ND gate revenue (halved to be annualized)
AAC CFP money

I put "donations" at the top without having a number...but estimates of the other five still get me to half of estimated annual budget. Big ticket donations might vary year by year, but one recent dedication had the list of seven-figure-plus donors on the plaque and that list was 21 names. I haven't bought a program lately to count the four-figure donors, but that really adds up.
If you put the AAC pieces together, probably/possibly jumps ahead of NMCMS home game revenue. But still not ahead of A-N. But they're broken out to now translate this to Army and independence vs conference.

The money Navy gets from our football-only share of the AAC media money is probably greater than Army's CBSSN contract. And our AAC dollars are growing.
CFP I mentioned before: $2 million to $300k. Okay, today, that difference is....estimating...less than 5% of the annual budget. So it might not swing the decision. If CFP money doubles for everybody in the new expanded contract? The difference between AAC (even dividing 14 ways) and independence is now approaching 10% of the annual budget. Now I'm listening more. If the CFP money triples and it's relatively proportional -- almost certainly 10%+ of the annual budget.

Putting the conference distributions back together...at the end of the AAC's contract escalation, IF the AAC triples its CFP money...the AAC distribution together might pass Army-Navy. On the one hand, THAT gets leadership's attention at either USMA or USNA. On the other hand, UNTIL then? There is a reason Navy's membership agreement with the BigEast/AAC states very clearly "Thou shalt not eff with Army-Navy." That's why I laugh at all the Realignment Board Regulars with a Cliff Clavin plan of "do it on Labor Day" or whatever. But that's also a barrier to Army joining the AAC. No solution to that is perfect, and the degrees of "not so bad" are still bad enough to be a NO.

Could they make Army-Navy not count as a conference game if Army joined?

(12-12-2022 11:25 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Could they make Army-Navy not count as a conference game if Army joined?

Thats what I was thinking

Guarantee they will never play each other as a conference game unless its the AAC championship.

Back to back weekends of Army-Navy would be weird but how often is that likely

Could Army get a Notre Dame deal with the AAC? That will give them like 5 AAC games plus the anual Navy game. It would still be a homerun for the AAC for having them as partual member in football.

(12-12-2022 11:25 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Could they make Army-Navy not count as a conference game if Army joined?

Here is how I would do it. The AAC would have east and west divisions. Navy would be in the west----Army in the east. They would NEVER play each other in the regular season as conference opponents. They would, instead meet every year in the traditional OOC game on its traditional date (just as they do now). It would be just be one of those weird college league quirks that makes college football interesting and different from every other sport.

If ever Army and Navy BOTH win their respective divisions (meaning they would meet in the AAC CCG the week before their traditional game day)----then the normal AAC CCG would not played that year and the traditional Army-Navy game on its traditional date would become the effective AAC CCG. The next Army-Navy TV deal would have special provisions that required the rights holder to pay an additional sum (say 2 or 3 million) if a scenario occurs where the traditional Army-Navy game doubles as the AAC CCG. This extra sum would be given to the AAC to compensate both the AAC and the AAC media rights holder for the loss of that years CCG.

(12-12-2022 09:12 AM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 08:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:25 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

Navy's issues go well beyond conferences at this point. Being legally prohibited from NIL and having unique admissions standards puts them at a pretty harsh disadvantage. Niumatalolo's last interview before getting the boot doesn't seem to give off a whole lot of confidence in the future of service academy football at the FBS level.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-landscape

I thought his comments were kind of along the lines of excuse-making. I mean, since when has Navy recruited players who were in line to receive NIL or were concerned about the transfer portal? You join the Naval (or Army or AFA) Academy to be a military officer, not play football.

Meh. He was answering the questions asked.
The storyline was along the lines of the 2014 article BruceMcF pulled earlier in this thread -- toughest jobs in college football.

It isn't new.

Niumat's most frequently quoted quote over 15 years as a head coach is "Winning football games is hard. It's even harder at a service academy." (I actually always hear him in my mind saying "freakin' hard" strong language for the devout man.)

And, yes, NIL and transfer portal widen the gap between service academies and other programs. We certainly have losses, we always have, because the academies aren't for everyone, especially not if you get good film freshman and sophomore years and think you have NFL potential. And the transfer portal makes it even easier for these guys to leave. Johnny Hodges at TCU this year. Alohi Gilman at Notre Dame and now in the League. And obviously it's one way.
NIL - maybe that's minimal effect, but it isn't just the bluebloods - the coaches' quotes in the article say even the lower level FBS or FCS schools we're recruiting against can offer greater than the zero that we do.

Article seemed clear neither Niumat nor Monken were looking for sympathy.
These are all facts. It is what it is. Things can be reasons without making excuses.

The value of a Service Academy education far exceeds the value of one from Tennessee Tech. How do you put a price on that? I'm not sure, but I will say that anybody who's both Athletically and Academically gifted-enough to get into an Academy is going to recognize that. There won't be many transfers, if any, due to NIL.

(12-12-2022 11:38 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 11:25 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Could they make Army-Navy not count as a conference game if Army joined?

Thats what I was thinking

Guarantee they will never play each other as a conference game unless its the AAC championship.

Back to back weekends of Army-Navy would be weird but how often is that likely

Back to back Army-Navy would be ok with me.

(12-12-2022 03:55 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 11:25 AM)AssKickingChicken Wrote:  Could they make Army-Navy not count as a conference game if Army joined?

Here is how I would do it. The AAC would have east and west divisions. Navy would be in the west----Army in the east. They would NEVER play each other in the regular season as conference opponents. They would, instead meet every year in the traditional OOC game on its traditional date (just as they do now). It would be just be one of those weird college league quirks that makes college football interesting and different from every other sport.

If ever Army and Navy BOTH win their respective divisions (meaning they would meet in the AAC CCG the week before their traditional game day)----then the normal AAC CCG would not played that year and the traditional Army-Navy game on its traditional date would become the effective AAC CCG. The next Army-Navy TV deal would have special provisions that required the rights holder to pay an additional sum (say 2 or 3 million) if a scenario occurs where the traditional Army-Navy game doubles as the AAC CCG. This extra sum would be given to the AAC to compensate both the AAC and the AAC media rights holder for the loss of that years CCG.

Except that the AAC champ will always be playing for the 5th or 6th champ Playoff spot and you can't delay that.

So you need another zero on the compensation -- double the current value to the conference for a playoff spot would be $12 million and the current three million viewers of the AAC CCG (the eight year average is a little under the three million number, I'm rounding) mean it is probably worth $9 million of the AAC contract's $83million AAC.

(12-12-2022 03:55 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 09:12 AM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 08:45 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-12-2022 03:25 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(12-11-2022 06:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I don't see what would be appealing about the AAC to Army.

I am not sure Navy would have joined this coming version of the AAC. It is akin to joining CUSA.

Navy's issues go well beyond conferences at this point. Being legally prohibited from NIL and having unique admissions standards puts them at a pretty harsh disadvantage. Niumatalolo's last interview before getting the boot doesn't seem to give off a whole lot of confidence in the future of service academy football at the FBS level.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-landscape

I thought his comments were kind of along the lines of excuse-making. I mean, since when has Navy recruited players who were in line to receive NIL or were concerned about the transfer portal? You join the Naval (or Army or AFA) Academy to be a military officer, not play football.

Meh. He was answering the questions asked.
The storyline was along the lines of the 2014 article BruceMcF pulled earlier in this thread -- toughest jobs in college football.

It isn't new.

Niumat's most frequently quoted quote over 15 years as a head coach is "Winning football games is hard. It's even harder at a service academy." (I actually always hear him in my mind saying "freakin' hard" strong language for the devout man.)

And, yes, NIL and transfer portal widen the gap between service academies and other programs. We certainly have losses, we always have, because the academies aren't for everyone, especially not if you get good film freshman and sophomore years and think you have NFL potential. And the transfer portal makes it even easier for these guys to leave. Johnny Hodges at TCU this year. Alohi Gilman at Notre Dame and now in the League. And obviously it's one way.
NIL - maybe that's minimal effect, but it isn't just the bluebloods - the coaches' quotes in the article say even the lower level FBS or FCS schools we're recruiting against can offer greater than the zero that we do.

Article seemed clear neither Niumat nor Monken were looking for sympathy.
These are all facts. It is what it is. Things can be reasons without making excuses.

The value of a Service Academy education far exceeds the value of one from Tennessee Tech. How do you put a price on that? I'm not sure, but I will say that anybody who's both Athletically and Academically gifted-enough to get into an Academy is going to recognize that. There won't be many transfers, if any, due to NIL.

My son is in the process of seeking a nomination to West Point, getting in is a big freaking deal, athlete or not. Reality, if you look at future earnings rankings, all three Academies are in the top 10 of schools nationwide.

(12-08-2022 11:03 PM)bluesox Wrote:  Army and Navy belong in the Ivy League

I agree. The standards required by the military academies work best with schools like the Ivy League.

The Sunbelt stretches from the Virginias to Texas ... that would keep Army-Navy OOC so might be kept after the respective CCG, but it would still leave only two free OOC games after Navy and the AFA are locked into place, so a less national schedule.

ARMY would have to be FB only in any FBS league. Would most G5 conferences be willing to do ARMY FB only?

Love the academies. I think it's a shame that the AAC couldn't coax Army in... Army and Navy together would have been awesome. IIRC, they basically have a standing invite if they ever want to join. Pretty sure FB only would be fine... working for Navy.