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(09-11-2022 05:10 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(09-10-2022 09:23 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Kennesaw State penalties: 0-0
Cincinnati penalties: 10-90

Kennesaw state points: 10
Cincinnati points: 63

Right, but if your stated goal is to be a top 10 program (or did he say top 5?) then you can’t get away with sloppy penalties. Getting the ball at 1st and 3 at the goal line followed by 4(?) penalties in the Ark game made a difference. Post-game Kennesaw, Fickell talked to the penalties as something to be fixed, but the false start thing has been recurring for years. The Kennesaw game had some pretty dumb penalties.

I’m looking thru the lens of a program that made it to the semifinals, is heading to the Big 12, and has a coach who rakes in $5m a year and has recruited top tier talent. Next year , UC isn’t going to be playing in front of 500 people at Tulane.

I think if you're focused on penalties as the issue stopping UC from getting to the next level you're focusing on the wrong thing. If you look across the sport, there is basically zero correlation between how often you are penalized and how successful you are. Go look at penalty rankings year after year.

I'd love fewer penalties and it's an easy thing for fans to look at, but in truth it's a very small part of team success. Kansas was the least penalized power 5 team last year. Teams like Ole Miss, UC, Alabama, Michigan State, Arkansas, and NC State were among the most penalized teams in the country last season. If you chart team success and team penalties it's just going to look like a random scatter plot.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-foo...2022-01-11

(09-11-2022 11:22 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I think if you're focused on penalties as the issue stopping UC from getting to the next level you're focusing on the wrong thing. If you look across the sport, there is basically zero correlation between how often you are penalized and how successful you are. Go look at penalty rankings year after year.

I'd love fewer penalties and it's an easy thing for fans to look at, but in truth it's a very small part of team success. Kansas was the least penalized power 5 team last year. Teams like Ole Miss, UC, Alabama, Michigan State, Arkansas, and NC State were among the most penalized teams in the country last season. If you chart team success and team penalties it's just going to look like a random scatter plot.

https://www.teamrankings.com/college-foo...2022-01-11

I think you want to avoid sloppy concentration style penalties like false starts, off-sides, and delay of game type things. Everything else tends to be a judgment call or the result of overly aggressive play.

I am not worried about penalties.

Here are Cincinnati's FBS penalties per game rankings from Mark's link above:

116 - 2022 [Thru Two Games]
111 - 2021
124 - 2020
127 - 2019
125 - 2018
121 - 2017

There's 130 FBS programs so Cincinnati has been near the very bottom [worst] in penalties per game in the Luke Fickell era. Last year was the best season in terms of fewer penalties but UC still finished in the lower third of FBS. To Mark's point, aside from Year One the Bearcats have an incredible win-loss record overall and went to the CFP last season. That said, I'm sure there are games that were either lost in part or were closer than they should've been because of penalties. Did the first and goal brain fart of penalties at Arkansas that turned into a long field goal cost us the game in of itself? Probably not. Did it factor into not scoring 7 points down there, maybe changing the momentum and played a part in the loss? Probably.

I think most fans can accept penalties are going to happen but many seem to be from guys not focusing or from not keeping their cool or from lack of game situation awareness. Maybe it is nitpicking some but you would think the trend would be fewer penalties over time or at least not finishing near the bottom every year. I also wonder when you play in the AAC against some scrub teams [with all due respect] vs. playing in a conference like the B12 can you afford to make this amount of penalties when every win is harder to come by.

Believe me, I'm not staying awake at night over this but damn't if it isn't frustrating during the game/game thread though. Emotions are high and penalties in general seem a very fixable thing.

(09-11-2022 11:50 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Here are Cincinnati's FBS penalties per game rankings from Mark's link above:

116 - 2022 [Thru Two Games]
111 - 2021
124 - 2020
127 - 2019
125 - 2018
121 - 2017

There's 130 FBS programs so Cincinnati has been near the very bottom [worst] in penalties per game in the Luke Fickell era. Last year was the best season in terms of fewer penalties but UC still finished in the lower third of FBS. To Mark's point, aside from Year One the Bearcats have an incredible win-loss record overall and went to the CFP last season. That said, I'm sure there are games that were either lost in part or were closer than they should've been because of penalties. Did the first and goal brain fart of penalties at Arkansas that turned into a long field goal cost us the game in of itself? Probably not. Did it factor into not scoring 7 points down there, maybe changing the momentum and played a part in the loss? Probably.

I think most fans can accept penalties are going to happen but many seem to be from guys not focusing or from not keeping their cool or from lack of game situation awareness. Maybe it is nitpicking some but you would think the trend would be fewer penalties over time or at least not finishing near the bottom every year. I also wonder when you play in the AAC against some scrub teams [with all due respect] vs. playing in a conference like the B12 can you afford to make this amount of penalties when every win is harder to come by.

Believe me, I'm not staying awake at night over this but damn't if it isn't frustrating during the game/game thread though. Emotions are high and penalties in general seem a very fixable thing.

Where did you get those penalty stats. I’d be curious to see the stats for the recent national champs over the last 5-10 year.

(09-11-2022 01:06 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Where did you get those penalty stats. I’d be curious to see the stats for the recent national champs over the last 5-10 year.

I referenced Mark's link in the first line of my post. Here are the natty champs rankings in penalties...

37 - 2021 Georgia
62 - 2020 Alabama
78 - 2019 LSU
32 - 2018 Clemson
38 - 2017 Alabama
72 - 2016 Clemson
84 - 2015 Alabama
50 - 2014 Ohio State

(09-11-2022 01:21 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:06 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Where did you get those penalty stats. I’d be curious to see the stats for the recent national champs over the last 5-10 year.

I referenced Mark's link in the first line of my post. Here are the natty champs rankings in penalties...

37 - 2021 Georgia
62 - 2020 Alabama
78 - 2019 LSU
32 - 2018 Clemson
38 - 2017 Alabama
72 - 2016 Clemson
84 - 2015 Alabama
50 - 2014 Ohio State

Thanks.

If your stated goal is to be competitive with those teams listed above, you’re not going to give them an entire field worth of penalties, or leave four points on the field and expect to win - particularly when you’re not yet recruiting on their level.

I suspect the penalty issue will become more noticeable in the B12 than it was in the AAC.

Not buying the argument that penalties aren’t all that important. Thing is, it’s fixable, particularly all the false starts.

(09-11-2022 02:01 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:21 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:06 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Where did you get those penalty stats. I’d be curious to see the stats for the recent national champs over the last 5-10 year.

I referenced Mark's link in the first line of my post. Here are the natty champs rankings in penalties...

37 - 2021 Georgia
62 - 2020 Alabama
78 - 2019 LSU
32 - 2018 Clemson
38 - 2017 Alabama
72 - 2016 Clemson
84 - 2015 Alabama
50 - 2014 Ohio State

Thanks.

If your stated goal is to be competitive with those teams listed above, you’re not going to give them an entire field worth of penalties, or leave four points on the field and expect to win - particularly when you’re not yet recruiting on their level.

I suspect the penalty issue will become more noticeable in the B12 than it was in the AAC.

Not buying the argument that penalties aren’t all that important. Thing is, it’s fixable, particularly all the false starts.

You may not "buy" the argument but there's pretty extensive data that penalties don't have much to do with team success. That data is scattered all over the place for a reason.

(09-11-2022 02:06 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 02:01 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:21 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:06 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Where did you get those penalty stats. I’d be curious to see the stats for the recent national champs over the last 5-10 year.

I referenced Mark's link in the first line of my post. Here are the natty champs rankings in penalties...

37 - 2021 Georgia
62 - 2020 Alabama
78 - 2019 LSU
32 - 2018 Clemson
38 - 2017 Alabama
72 - 2016 Clemson
84 - 2015 Alabama
50 - 2014 Ohio State

Thanks.

If your stated goal is to be competitive with those teams listed above, you’re not going to give them an entire field worth of penalties, or leave four points on the field and expect to win - particularly when you’re not yet recruiting on their level.

I suspect the penalty issue will become more noticeable in the B12 than it was in the AAC.

Not buying the argument that penalties aren’t all that important. Thing is, it’s fixable, particularly all the false starts.

You may not "buy" the argument but there's pretty extensive data that penalties don't have much to do with team success. That data is scattered all over the place for a reason.

On top of that, I think Fickell purposefully doesn't dwell on penalties to keep his team loose and hungry.

A team gets uptight when the coach flips out at players for little mistakes. It always seemed to me that Fick intentionally avoids doing that.

By the way, did anyone see Fick get ticked off at his players during the Arkansas game? It's the first time I've seen him scream at the team during a game.

I believe there is truth on both sides of the argument. Penalties are one piece of a pie that go into the dynamics of winning or losing a game. In the aggregate, they tend to be less acute. Penalties also can absolutely determine the outcome of a game and the likelihood of that happening is higher for teams that consistently make more penalties than other teams. Look at the national chip list - no team was ranked in the lower third of FBS for penalties per game.

I agree that you don't want a coach to flip out at every penalty. No one has said that. The issue is penalties should be fixable and that is one less thing to deal with if you can play without bonehead mistakes. I go back to the Arkansas example when we were first and goal from the three and ended up having to kick a long field goal. Shoot, we could've very easily missed that kick and ended up with zero points. Was that what cost the game? No, but you can't tell me those penalties mean zero percentage to the outcome of a game.

FWIW, Cincinnati has 20 penalties for 155 yards in two games.

(09-11-2022 04:11 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  I believe there is truth on both sides of the argument. Penalties are one piece of a pie that go into the dynamics of winning or losing a game. In the aggregate, they tend to be less acute. Penalties also can absolutely determine the outcome of a game and the likelihood of that happening is higher for teams that consistently make more penalties than other teams. Look at the national chip list - no team was ranked in the lower third of FBS for penalties per game.

I agree that you don't want a coach to flip out at every penalty. No one has said that. The issue is penalties should be fixable and that is one less thing to deal with if you can play without bonehead mistakes. I go back to the Arkansas example when we were first and goal from the three and ended up having to kick a long field goal. Shoot, we could've very easily missed that kick and ended up with zero points. Was that what cost the game? No, but you can't tell me those penalties mean zero percentage to the outcome of a game.

I agree. I want my team to play aggressive and the raw penalty numbers don't bother me. Myjai jumping offside once a game actually probably helped intimidate the other tackle. What you can't have is offensive line pre snap penalties in key situations. Metz wrecked the offense at times early in his career playing tackle. If I remember correctly the AAC championship game vs Tulsa had a bunch of procedure penalties and we barely survived.

The number which measures discipline much better and correlates directly to winning is turnovers and we've excelled there.

Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk

(09-11-2022 03:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 02:06 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 02:01 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:21 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:06 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  Where did you get those penalty stats. I’d be curious to see the stats for the recent national champs over the last 5-10 year.

I referenced Mark's link in the first line of my post. Here are the natty champs rankings in penalties...

37 - 2021 Georgia
62 - 2020 Alabama
78 - 2019 LSU
32 - 2018 Clemson
38 - 2017 Alabama
72 - 2016 Clemson
84 - 2015 Alabama
50 - 2014 Ohio State

Thanks.

If your stated goal is to be competitive with those teams listed above, you’re not going to give them an entire field worth of penalties, or leave four points on the field and expect to win - particularly when you’re not yet recruiting on their level.

I suspect the penalty issue will become more noticeable in the B12 than it was in the AAC.

Not buying the argument that penalties aren’t all that important. Thing is, it’s fixable, particularly all the false starts.

You may not "buy" the argument but there's pretty extensive data that penalties don't have much to do with team success. That data is scattered all over the place for a reason.

On top of that, I think Fickell purposefully doesn't dwell on penalties to keep his team loose and hungry.

A team gets uptight when the coach flips out at players for little mistakes. It always seemed to me that Fick intentionally avoids doing that.

By the way, did anyone see Fick get ticked off at his players during the Arkansas game? It's the first time I've seen him scream at the team during a game.

There’s loose…then there’s being near the bottom. Other than the Ark game, my guess is that UC can skate by most games on the schedule. And yeah, Fickell’s anger during that game is what led me down this path. Between the helmets and the penalty debacle, it screamed “not ready for prime time.”

From what I observed Alabama had a lot of penalties yesterday. In fact, I think it was reported they had back-to-back penalties to start the game. Penalties didn't cause us to lose the game at Arkansas, nor did it cause us to lose the playoff game. It's frustrating, but these are young men and some of them are getting meaningful playing time for the first time.

(09-11-2022 05:37 PM)Edgebrookjeff Wrote:  From what I observed Alabama had a lot of penalties yesterday. In fact, I think it was reported they had back-to-back penalties to start the game. Penalties didn't cause us to lose the game at Arkansas, nor did it cause us to lose the playoff game. It's frustrating, but these are young men and some of them are getting meaningful playing time for the first time.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footba...texas/amp/

Most galling to Day, though, were the penalties. Ohio State committed nine for 85 yards, which doesn’t tell the full story. A penalty on Teradja Mitchell for leaping over the punt shield gave Arkansas State a first down, nullifying an Emeka Egbuka punt return for a touchdown. (The Buckeyes were also called for a block in the back on the play.)

“That's unacceptable,” Day said of the penalties. “We've got to get that fixed."

Apparently aO$U coach feels that penalties are a negative and should be addressed.

(09-11-2022 05:31 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 03:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 02:06 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 02:01 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(09-11-2022 01:21 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  I referenced Mark's link in the first line of my post. Here are the natty champs rankings in penalties...

37 - 2021 Georgia
62 - 2020 Alabama
78 - 2019 LSU
32 - 2018 Clemson
38 - 2017 Alabama
72 - 2016 Clemson
84 - 2015 Alabama
50 - 2014 Ohio State

Thanks.

If your stated goal is to be competitive with those teams listed above, you’re not going to give them an entire field worth of penalties, or leave four points on the field and expect to win - particularly when you’re not yet recruiting on their level.

I suspect the penalty issue will become more noticeable in the B12 than it was in the AAC.

Not buying the argument that penalties aren’t all that important. Thing is, it’s fixable, particularly all the false starts.

You may not "buy" the argument but there's pretty extensive data that penalties don't have much to do with team success. That data is scattered all over the place for a reason.

On top of that, I think Fickell purposefully doesn't dwell on penalties to keep his team loose and hungry.

A team gets uptight when the coach flips out at players for little mistakes. It always seemed to me that Fick intentionally avoids doing that.

By the way, did anyone see Fick get ticked off at his players during the Arkansas game? It's the first time I've seen him scream at the team during a game.

There’s loose…then there’s being near the bottom. Other than the Ark game, my guess is that UC can skate by most games on the schedule. And yeah, Fickell’s anger during that game is what led me down this path. Between the helmets and the penalty debacle, it screamed “not ready for prime time.”

It's almost like it was week 1 of a team with a lot of new parts.

(09-12-2022 08:16 AM)cmhcat Wrote:  Most galling to Day, though, were the penalties. Ohio State committed nine for 85 yards, which doesn’t tell the full story. A penalty on Teradja Mitchell for leaping over the punt shield gave Arkansas State a first down, nullifying an Emeka Egbuka punt return for a touchdown. (The Buckeyes were also called for a block in the back on the play.)

“That's unacceptable,” Day said of the penalties. “We've got to get that fixed."

Apparently aO$U coach feels that penalties are a negative and should be addressed.

Of course penalties are "negative"....that's why they are penalties. But it's pretty clear, how often you are penalized as a team has very little impact on your overall success. The data is overwhelming in this regard.

If you give me a binary choice between more penalties or fewer penalties, of course I'm taking fewer. But fans drastically overstate the impact of penalties which are probably the stat that has the smallest correlation to team success on the field.

So the attendance for the game was 37,014. Did Nippert shrink in size again or is this finally an accurate official capacity?

(09-12-2022 08:31 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  So the attendance for the game was 37,014. Did Nippert shrink in size again or is this finally an accurate official capacity?

It was announced as 39,014. I tweeted about this during the game. I realize we added some seats in the field-view level suites, but there are no more than 100 people in that section.