(06-23-2022 08:44 AM)inutech Wrote:  

(06-22-2022 05:50 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  And having all conferences the same size satisfies my OCD.

(06-23-2022 08:42 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Nine is great for football but not for basketball, because you’re looking at 16 conference games when everyone else is at 18 or 20, making OOC scheduling trickier.

Nerdlinger solved that problem. If everyone is at 9, there are plenty of OOC games to go around.

In theoretical terms he’s right.

In practical terms, even if we magically transported to the 1980s where conferences generally fell between 8 and 10 teams, getting everyone to the magic number would be improbable at best.

And today, with conferences and media partners making inventory a priority, offering up only 16 in-conference basketball games hurts.

Oddly enough, I’m coming around to CUSA being best situated at 9, not only because there’s no home run No. 10, but also because you have unique circumstances — the basketball programs you have are good enough on paper to produce good NET teams, while inventory isn’t as big a deal because, let’s face it, your next media deal probably won’t be substantial enough to warrant adding teams and games to get more out of it.

In the end I’m copping out: There IS no ideal conference size. What works for the SEC doesn’t necessarily work for the Pac 12. What works for the Sun Belt doesn’t work for CUSA, and what works for CUSA doesn’t work for the MAC.

Or if you want to get craaaaazy (and change the NCAA rules in the process): Six. Play your conference opponents in football twice, in basketball four times (two H, two A). I can’t think of a current Division 1 conference that would even remotely entertain this except possibly the MEAC, and even then they still have eight basketball teams. Plus they may benefit more from extra body bag games against FBS teams than five guaranteed home conference games.

They're called "open" weeks, not a "bye." A bye when you automatically advance in a tournament. Get it right people!

(06-23-2022 03:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  They're called "open" weeks, not a "bye." A bye when you automatically advance in a tournament. Get it right people!

The NFL calls it a Bye week.

https://www.nfl.com/news/how-bye-weeks-b...021-season

https://www.dallascowboys.com/schedule/ (scroll down to week 9)

24

If you go into pods of 6 of 4 regions.

Here is a good on paper conference to go coast to coast.

West:
San Diego State
Fresno State
UNR
Boise State
Air Force
Colorado State

Central:
SMU
UTSA
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Iowa
Missouri State

Southeast:
Arkansas State
Memphis
UAB
USF
Troy
Georgia Southern

Northeast:
Buffalo
Temple
Appalachian State
ODU
Marshall
Toledo

I like 10. That’s the maximum for a true round-robin, yet big enough to reduce the “oh, these guys AGAIN…” factor that you have with just 8 teams like the old Big 8.

(06-23-2022 04:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  24

If you go into pods of 6 of 4 regions.

Here is a good on paper conference to go coast to coast.

West:
San Diego State
Fresno State
UNR
Boise State
Air Force
Colorado State

Central:
SMU
UTSA
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Iowa
Missouri State

Southeast:
Arkansas State
Memphis
UAB
USF
Troy
Georgia Southern

Northeast:
Buffalo
Temple
Appalachian State
ODU
Marshall
Toledo

That must be some impressive paper, if it makes this look like a conference that is "good" in any traditional use of the word.

A: 3

Alabma, Jawja, n Clemons.
The rest is just wind'er dessin'.
No, Flo'duh, you is not invik'ted.

The results thus far indicate that the average "ideal conference size," according to the poll respondents, is 12.18 teams.

.

(06-23-2022 04:47 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  I like 10. That’s the maximum for a true round-robin, yet big enough to reduce the “oh, these guys AGAIN…” factor that you have with just 8 teams like the old Big 8.

What is the difference? You see them the same frequency. If anything, 8 opens up 2 additional OOC spots for greater variety.

The ideal size is as few members in order to easily schedule annual rivals, plus as many as it takes to keep the conference stable and growing (financially). There is no such thing as a static perfect size because circumstances change. In the 1980s, it was better to be at 8-10 members; in the 2020s, it’s better to be at 12-16 members. The growth in conference size has provided leverage in taking a greater share of the boom in media rights.

(06-23-2022 04:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  24

If you go into pods of 6 of 4 regions.

Here is a good on paper conference to go coast to coast.

West:
San Diego State
Fresno State
UNR
Boise State
Air Force
Colorado State

Central:
SMU
UTSA
North Dakota State
South Dakota State
Northern Iowa
Missouri State

Southeast:
Arkansas State
Memphis
UAB
USF
Troy
Georgia Southern

Northeast:
Buffalo
Temple
Appalachian State
ODU
Marshall
Toledo

There has always been a question in the back of my mind as to whether the G5 would be better off at two or three coast-2-coast conferences rather than the 5 team setup and it has looked at times that its heading that way.

1) Briefly discussed MWC-CUSA left over merger back in 2012-2013. Tulane, Tulsa and ECU got AAC invites so that killed discussion.

2) AFA/CSU to the AAC. Air Force didn't quite pull the trigger on this one and now the MWC is sitting as likely the strongest of the G5 conferences.

Some of the reasons I believed it hasn't played out this way:

1) Both CUSA and MWC were created early in the BCS era with the hopes of establishing themselves enough with TV and big wins to join the club. MWC almost pulled this off before Utah/BYU left. The two conferences thought they could stand on their own two feet as brands alone.

2) The MWC and then AAC having periods of dominance where they believed they didn't need the others. MWC was clearly the top dog from the 2003-2005 realignment to the 2011-2013 period where it has switched to the AAC.

3) SBC in a lot of ways has set itself up as a 14 team mega conference that can rival what the MWC and AAC are doing on the FB field. What they've created is kind of like their own version of the MWC where they have specific areas no other G5 addresses like the Virginia-Carolinas and Arkansas-Louisiana corridor. The AAC is more of a Texas/Florida conference.

4) The MAC also has its own area more than what it did before and there is no sense that the MWC or AAC have what it takes to elevate into the club because the bar has moved up so high. The old MAC fits the new regional pattern of the MWC/SBC.

5) Power vacuums. The MWC tried to kill off the WAC and they came back with Boise St. CUSA tried to kill the SBC and they came back with Appalachian St. The expansion of the G5 has over time resulted in more programs moving up creating new competition.

If the MAC had split 20 years ago those left behind would have called up the MVC programs and created the situation with the AAC/SBC over time. MWC was able to eventually close out the WAC due to realignment forces.

I do think the well is running dry for FCS-to-FBS call ups. EKU and Tarleton St. is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Can CUSA hang in as a FBS conference long term or will it end up a scheduling agreement?

(06-24-2022 10:34 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  3) SBC in a lot of ways has set itself up as a 14 team mega conference that can rival what the MWC and AAC are doing on the FB field. What they've created is kind of like their own version of the MWC where they have specific areas no other G5 addresses like the Virginia-Carolinas and Arkansas-Louisiana corridor. The AAC is more of a Texas/Florida conference.

To whatever extent an Arkansas-Louisiana corridor exists, wouldn't Memphis/Tulsa to Tulane cover similar ground? Not to mention the school in yet another conference that's in Louisiana but 30 miles from the Arkansas line (again, I'm not sure why any of that means anything, I'm just saying 2 other G5 conferences "address" that area).

5) Power vacuums. The MWC tried to kill off the WAC and they came back with Boise St. CUSA tried to kill the SBC and they came back with Appalachian St. The expansion of the G5 has over time resulted in more programs moving up creating new competition.

The MWC didn't try to kill off the WAC. The WAC schools decided to double the size of their conference, decided they didn't like that after all and bailed. Then they left the new WAC alone until they came for Boise State (and then darn near everyone else).

And then they did kill off the WAC (with help from CUSA and SB).

I do think the well is running dry for FCS-to-FBS call ups. EKU and Tarleton St. is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Can CUSA hang in as a FBS conference long term or will it end up a scheduling agreement?

I don't see why CUSA would be going anywhere. As long as FCS schools want to join FBS, CUSA ought to be able to exist.

(06-24-2022 10:54 AM)inutech Wrote:  

(06-24-2022 10:34 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  3) SBC in a lot of ways has set itself up as a 14 team mega conference that can rival what the MWC and AAC are doing on the FB field. What they've created is kind of like their own version of the MWC where they have specific areas no other G5 addresses like the Virginia-Carolinas and Arkansas-Louisiana corridor. The AAC is more of a Texas/Florida conference.

To whatever extent an Arkansas-Louisiana corridor exists, wouldn't Memphis/Tulsa to Tulane cover similar ground? Not to mention the school in yet another conference that's in Louisiana but 30 miles from the Arkansas line (again, I'm not sure why any of that means anything, I'm just saying 2 other G5 conferences "address" that area).

5) Power vacuums. The MWC tried to kill off the WAC and they came back with Boise St. CUSA tried to kill the SBC and they came back with Appalachian St. The expansion of the G5 has over time resulted in more programs moving up creating new competition.

The MWC didn't try to kill off the WAC. The WAC schools decided to double the size of their conference, decided they didn't like that after all and bailed. Then they left the new WAC alone until they came for Boise State (and then darn near everyone else).

And then they did kill off the WAC (with help from CUSA and SB).

I do think the well is running dry for FCS-to-FBS call ups. EKU and Tarleton St. is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Can CUSA hang in as a FBS conference long term or will it end up a scheduling agreement?

I don't see why CUSA would be going anywhere. As long as FCS schools want to join FBS, CUSA ought to be able to exist.

Very few are wanting that upgrade any longer.

(06-24-2022 11:37 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-24-2022 10:54 AM)inutech Wrote:  

(06-24-2022 10:34 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  3) SBC in a lot of ways has set itself up as a 14 team mega conference that can rival what the MWC and AAC are doing on the FB field. What they've created is kind of like their own version of the MWC where they have specific areas no other G5 addresses like the Virginia-Carolinas and Arkansas-Louisiana corridor. The AAC is more of a Texas/Florida conference.

To whatever extent an Arkansas-Louisiana corridor exists, wouldn't Memphis/Tulsa to Tulane cover similar ground? Not to mention the school in yet another conference that's in Louisiana but 30 miles from the Arkansas line (again, I'm not sure why any of that means anything, I'm just saying 2 other G5 conferences "address" that area).

5) Power vacuums. The MWC tried to kill off the WAC and they came back with Boise St. CUSA tried to kill the SBC and they came back with Appalachian St. The expansion of the G5 has over time resulted in more programs moving up creating new competition.

The MWC didn't try to kill off the WAC. The WAC schools decided to double the size of their conference, decided they didn't like that after all and bailed. Then they left the new WAC alone until they came for Boise State (and then darn near everyone else).

And then they did kill off the WAC (with help from CUSA and SB).

I do think the well is running dry for FCS-to-FBS call ups. EKU and Tarleton St. is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Can CUSA hang in as a FBS conference long term or will it end up a scheduling agreement?

I don't see why CUSA would be going anywhere. As long as FCS schools want to join FBS, CUSA ought to be able to exist.

Very few are wanting that upgrade any longer.

Well, at the moment that's fine because CUSA doesn't need any additional schools. And if CUSA lost one school they'd still be ok without a replacement. If they lost two, they could apply for a waiver but they'd really need to find someone.

So long as the bare minimum number of FCS teams want to join FBS, CUSA ought to be able to exist. Today, that bare minimum number is zero (and there are clearly more than zero schools wanting that upgrade).

Reading this thread makes me realize that everyone has accepted conferences as "TV contract negotiation cartels" more than what they were first created to be: "peer institutions who should play each other every year."

The ideal size really depends on who you are, who your peers are; but college sports would be so much better with smaller conferences (9 or fewer) and a "single-round robin only" mandate, making schedules far more non-conference than conference.

I would like a smaller conference but I enjoy the ACCN so much that I won’t mind a 14/15 conference if that’s required to sustain a dedicated TV network.

(06-24-2022 12:03 PM)inutech Wrote:  

(06-24-2022 11:37 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-24-2022 10:54 AM)inutech Wrote:  

(06-24-2022 10:34 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  3) SBC in a lot of ways has set itself up as a 14 team mega conference that can rival what the MWC and AAC are doing on the FB field. What they've created is kind of like their own version of the MWC where they have specific areas no other G5 addresses like the Virginia-Carolinas and Arkansas-Louisiana corridor. The AAC is more of a Texas/Florida conference.

To whatever extent an Arkansas-Louisiana corridor exists, wouldn't Memphis/Tulsa to Tulane cover similar ground? Not to mention the school in yet another conference that's in Louisiana but 30 miles from the Arkansas line (again, I'm not sure why any of that means anything, I'm just saying 2 other G5 conferences "address" that area).

5) Power vacuums. The MWC tried to kill off the WAC and they came back with Boise St. CUSA tried to kill the SBC and they came back with Appalachian St. The expansion of the G5 has over time resulted in more programs moving up creating new competition.

The MWC didn't try to kill off the WAC. The WAC schools decided to double the size of their conference, decided they didn't like that after all and bailed. Then they left the new WAC alone until they came for Boise State (and then darn near everyone else).

And then they did kill off the WAC (with help from CUSA and SB).

I do think the well is running dry for FCS-to-FBS call ups. EKU and Tarleton St. is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Can CUSA hang in as a FBS conference long term or will it end up a scheduling agreement?

I don't see why CUSA would be going anywhere. As long as FCS schools want to join FBS, CUSA ought to be able to exist.

Very few are wanting that upgrade any longer.

Well, at the moment that's fine because CUSA doesn't need any additional schools. And if CUSA lost one school they'd still be ok without a replacement. If they lost two, they could apply for a waiver but they'd really need to find someone.

So long as the bare minimum number of FCS teams want to join FBS, CUSA ought to be able to exist. Today, that bare minimum number is zero (and there are clearly more than zero schools wanting that upgrade).

Its also what they are joining into.

Out west if you asked any of the Big Sky schools to join the MWC they would do so in a heartbeat. That is because they know the MWC is going to be around in 10 years and they are joining a historically Top 8 conference.

CUSA did have the kind of profiles to allow it to bring schools out to FBS like it did with Charlotte and Old Dominion who then moved onto better situations. CUSA 4.0 doesn't have that kind of pull to attract historically high-mid majors.

How many public, low-mid major, non-HBCUs FCS programs are left in the footprint that have 10,000+ students?

FCS
Kennesaw St. (41,181) Cap: 8,318
Central Arkansas (11,487) Cap: 10,000
Eastern Kentucky (14,465) Cap: 20,000
Northwestern St. (11,081) Cap: 15,971
Western Carolina (12,243) Cap: 13,742
Chattanooga (11,638) Cap: 20,412
East Tennessee (17,296) Cap: 7,694
Tennessee Tech (10,054) Cap: 16,500
Lamar (16,191) Cap: 16,000
Tarleton St (13,996) Cap: 15,000
Stephen F. Austin (11,946) Cap: 14,575
TAMU-Commerce (12,385) Cap: 13,500

DII
West Georgia (13,733) Cap: 10,000
West Florida (12,850) Cap: 5,038
Valdosta St. (11,220) Cap: 11,249
Angelo St (10,477) Cap: 5,870
West Texas A&M (10,169) Cap: 8,500

The only FCS to CUSA transition candidates that meet both 10k enrollment and 15k stadium size are Eastern Kentucky, Northwestern St, Chattanooga, Tennessee Tech, Lamar and SFA. That is only 7 schools. With Northwestern St. and Lamar committed to a regional SLC they are effectively off the table.

EKU, Tarleton and SFA are pretty much about IT unless Kennesaw gets off its duff and builds a bigger FB stadium. CUSA has 9 at the moment and that makes 12 with EKU, Tarleton and SFA in the conference.

17 schools in the footprint have the 10k but at lot of them just barely. Only 5 of them have 13,000 students. The smallest MAC school by comparison is 15.5k (CMU).

The schools that have signed up for CUSA 4.0 so far were WAC/ASun FBS hopefuls; New Mexico St, Sam Houston St, Liberty, Jacksonville St. Others that didn't get the call up yet are SFA, Tarleton and Eastern Kentucky. Institutions that are already in poor geography with WAC or Atlantic Sun and might as well be in CUSA w/ an acceptable profile.

I mean, we can come up with arbitrary lists all day. Number of students, whatever.

But I don't want any new members.

I'm just saying that we've got quite a ways to go before we run out (and it only matters if there are any options at all if another shuffle happens and CUSA loses between two and eight schools).

(06-24-2022 07:01 PM)inutech Wrote:  I mean, we can come up with arbitrary lists all day. Number of students, whatever.

But I don't want any new members.

I'm just saying that we've got quite a ways to go before we run out (and it only matters if there are any options at all if another shuffle happens and CUSA loses between two and eight schools).

EKU, Tarleton and SFA. Three schools you've heard about in the media.

CUSA is also just sitting at 9 members so can only afford to lose 1.