(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:30 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:34 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

I'm actually surprised that UTEP didn't get that MWC call last year... since they were working the phones feverishly with Baker (UNT), Karlgaard (Rice), and Campos (UTSA).

Subsequent to AAC expansion, the MWC took that opportunity to throw shade at UTEP. Thompson must have forgotten about the project.

That being said, in 2005 UTEP was on the rise with BCG coaching MBB and Mike Price coaching FB.

This is speculation, but (IMO) Mike Price - due to his time at Washington State - felt that the recruiting grounds in the East (specifically the other Texas locales) were more fertile than the ones he had just left in the West. UTEP was also packing the Sun Bowl at that time and the alumni bases in Dallas and Houston were attractive.

There was no reason to believe that UTEP would fall off like they did. If Mike Price could've built UTEP like George O'Leary built UCF, those Dallas and Houston roots would've yielded much more fruit than anything out West. It also didn't help matters when BCG (and Doc Sadler to a lesser extent) bolted quickly after UTEP got the CUSA invite.

Would Louisiana Tech been a better invite? In hindsight, yes... knowing that Price couldn't keep the crowds and BCG would leave so soon. However, how do you say no to 40-50K at the Sun Bowl?? CUSA was hoping for an ECU-Caliber Football program (with an NCAA worthy MBB team) on their Western edge and it just fizzled out. It's hard to fault that thinking with the infrastructure and coaches in place at that time.

There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:30 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:34 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

I'm actually surprised that UTEP didn't get that MWC call last year... since they were working the phones feverishly with Baker (UNT), Karlgaard (Rice), and Campos (UTSA).

Subsequent to AAC expansion, the MWC took that opportunity to throw shade at UTEP. Thompson must have forgotten about the project.

That being said, in 2005 UTEP was on the rise with BCG coaching MBB and Mike Price coaching FB.

This is speculation, but (IMO) Mike Price - due to his time at Washington State - felt that the recruiting grounds in the East (specifically the other Texas locales) were more fertile than the ones he had just left in the West. UTEP was also packing the Sun Bowl at that time and the alumni bases in Dallas and Houston were attractive.

There was no reason to believe that UTEP would fall off like they did. If Mike Price could've built UTEP like George O'Leary built UCF, those Dallas and Houston roots would've yielded much more fruit than anything out West. It also didn't help matters when BCG (and Doc Sadler to a lesser extent) bolted quickly after UTEP got the CUSA invite.

Would Louisiana Tech been a better invite? In hindsight, yes... knowing that Price couldn't keep the crowds and BCG would leave so soon. However, how do you say no to 40-50K at the Sun Bowl?? CUSA was hoping for an ECU-Caliber Football program (with an NCAA worthy MBB team) on their Western edge and it just fizzled out. It's hard to fault that thinking with the infrastructure and coaches in place at that time.

There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

(05-10-2022 11:28 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:30 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:34 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

I'm actually surprised that UTEP didn't get that MWC call last year... since they were working the phones feverishly with Baker (UNT), Karlgaard (Rice), and Campos (UTSA).

Subsequent to AAC expansion, the MWC took that opportunity to throw shade at UTEP. Thompson must have forgotten about the project.

That being said, in 2005 UTEP was on the rise with BCG coaching MBB and Mike Price coaching FB.

This is speculation, but (IMO) Mike Price - due to his time at Washington State - felt that the recruiting grounds in the East (specifically the other Texas locales) were more fertile than the ones he had just left in the West. UTEP was also packing the Sun Bowl at that time and the alumni bases in Dallas and Houston were attractive.

There was no reason to believe that UTEP would fall off like they did. If Mike Price could've built UTEP like George O'Leary built UCF, those Dallas and Houston roots would've yielded much more fruit than anything out West. It also didn't help matters when BCG (and Doc Sadler to a lesser extent) bolted quickly after UTEP got the CUSA invite.

Would Louisiana Tech been a better invite? In hindsight, yes... knowing that Price couldn't keep the crowds and BCG would leave so soon. However, how do you say no to 40-50K at the Sun Bowl?? CUSA was hoping for an ECU-Caliber Football program (with an NCAA worthy MBB team) on their Western edge and it just fizzled out. It's hard to fault that thinking with the infrastructure and coaches in place at that time.

There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

They wouldn't have had enough members to remain a contractual football conference and they would have dissolved as a football conference, just like the WAC.

(05-10-2022 11:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:28 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:30 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  I'm actually surprised that UTEP didn't get that MWC call last year... since they were working the phones feverishly with Baker (UNT), Karlgaard (Rice), and Campos (UTSA).

Subsequent to AAC expansion, the MWC took that opportunity to throw shade at UTEP. Thompson must have forgotten about the project.

That being said, in 2005 UTEP was on the rise with BCG coaching MBB and Mike Price coaching FB.

This is speculation, but (IMO) Mike Price - due to his time at Washington State - felt that the recruiting grounds in the East (specifically the other Texas locales) were more fertile than the ones he had just left in the West. UTEP was also packing the Sun Bowl at that time and the alumni bases in Dallas and Houston were attractive.

There was no reason to believe that UTEP would fall off like they did. If Mike Price could've built UTEP like George O'Leary built UCF, those Dallas and Houston roots would've yielded much more fruit than anything out West. It also didn't help matters when BCG (and Doc Sadler to a lesser extent) bolted quickly after UTEP got the CUSA invite.

Would Louisiana Tech been a better invite? In hindsight, yes... knowing that Price couldn't keep the crowds and BCG would leave so soon. However, how do you say no to 40-50K at the Sun Bowl?? CUSA was hoping for an ECU-Caliber Football program (with an NCAA worthy MBB team) on their Western edge and it just fizzled out. It's hard to fault that thinking with the infrastructure and coaches in place at that time.

There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

They wouldn't have had enough members to remain a contractual football conference and they would have dissolved as a football conference, just like the WAC.

They would've been fine. C-USA would not have dissolved in your scenario. We would just have more FBS schools.

(05-10-2022 11:43 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:28 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

They wouldn't have had enough members to remain a contractual football conference and they would have dissolved as a football conference, just like the WAC.

They would've been fine. C-USA would not have dissolved in your scenario. We would just have more FBS schools.

I think maybe it could have been done, but you probably have to have the other G5s working together to take everyone (and maybe even some of the FBS indys to leave fewer rebuilding options).

If NMSU and UTEP went to MWC, Tech and FIU to AAC (or 'Belt), and WKU and MTSU to MAC I suppose the CUSA HQ could have tried to totally rebuild with FCS schools plus Liberty or something (or UMass and UConn) but that would have been your shot to make things a G4 situation.

At least in the short run I think it would have done the trick. Maybe CUSA exists as an FCS league with FBS goals like the WAC tried to do, or maybe it just folds.

(05-10-2022 10:56 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 02:16 PM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  Being afraid of FCS teams. Should have added App and JMU to strengthen their hold in the Mid Atlantic market. Possibly should have added a few others not in big markets.
Several conferences have missed on good schools using the too many in one market excuse. Most G5 schools have very few sidewalk fans and all bring their own followers and steal very few from others.

Not being afraid enough of FCS teams. ODU and UNCC were two of the most divisive elements and ended up adding nothing in football. And the flood of southern FCS teams really spread the talent around thinner. Southern FCS schools moving up included WKU in 2009, UTSA, Texas St. and USA in 2012, Georgia St. in 2013, ODU, Georgia Southern and App St. in 2014, UNCC in 2015, Coastal Carolina in 2017 and Liberty in 2018. That's 11 schools in a decade added to the 21 southern G5 schools that existed in 2008.

The BIG mistake was not killing off the Sun Belt by adding the successful football programs in addition to the markets. ULL and Arkansas St. should have been added instead of ODU and UNCC. Then CUSA would have been competing just with the AAC for recruits and publicity, not with 2 other G5 conferences. Adding those 2 and WKU in 2013 gets them to 14 and leaves the Sun Belt with nonfootball members UTA and UALR, football members ULM and Troy and new former FCS schools Georgia State and South Alabama. They also added Texas St. in 2013 who was only a couple years out of FCS. That's only 5 football schools and Georgia St. was in their transition year. ODU, UNCC, App St. and Georgia Southern weren't ready in 2013. If they added Troy instead of UTSA, the Sun Belt would have been left with 2 continuing football and 5 total continuing members.

You’re awfully bloodthirsty for killing off conferences. But the Sun Belt would have still survived and CUSA wouldn’t have been any better off really.

MU
WKU
MT
UAB
TROY
FIU
FAU

UTEP
RICE
UNT
UL
LT
ARK ST
USM

Not a lot of difference. New SB would have been newbie heavy for sure.

UTSA
TXST
GSU
USA
GA SO
APP
UNCC
ODU
Plus non football UTA/UALR and football only Idaho and NMST. Also likely available EKU & Liberty. Pick up CCU down the road.

Adding schools defensively against other conferences is a mistake, you make the best membership you can and don’t worry about others. That CUSA would go on to see their TV deal crater, have trouble creating an identity and unity the same as the one that existed.

There are too many schools in the south and east that want to be FBS for the Sunbelt to die.

The only reason the WAC died was because the pool of upgrades in the west was limited to Big Sky schools and they all said no thanks.

That's a problem the SunBelt or CUSA would not face.

(05-10-2022 11:43 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:28 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

They wouldn't have had enough members to remain a contractual football conference and they would have dissolved as a football conference, just like the WAC.

They would've been fine. C-USA would not have dissolved in your scenario. We would just have more FBS schools.

FCS schools need to play a certain number of FBS schools to meet the requirements. If you have more FCS schools, at some point you are simply an FCS conference.

(05-10-2022 12:08 PM)solohawks Wrote:  There are too many schools in the south and east that want to be FBS for the Sunbelt to die.

The only reason the WAC died was because the pool of upgrades in the west was limited to Big Sky schools and they all said no thanks.

That's a problem the SunBelt or CUSA would not face.

As I said in the following post, you can't just move up a bunch of FCS schools and call it an FBS conference. It is simply an FCS conference with 1 to 3 FBS schools in it and they may cease to meet FBS requirements.

The WAC and Sun Belt spanned across the continent for a time. If it was that easy, the WAC could have survived with NMSU and a bunch of southern indies, some of them affiliates. But it didn't.

(05-10-2022 12:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:43 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:28 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

They wouldn't have had enough members to remain a contractual football conference and they would have dissolved as a football conference, just like the WAC.

They would've been fine. C-USA would not have dissolved in your scenario. We would just have more FBS schools.

FCS schools need to play a certain number of FBS schools to meet the requirements. If you have more FCS schools, at some point you are simply an FCS conference.

All FBS schools need to play a certain number of FBS schools, thus why the NCAA granted UTSA and TXST a waiver to accelerate their transition to keep the WAC in compliance. Of course both of those schools subsequently jumped ship too and the WAC was unable to backfill but as others have mentioned that would not be an issue for the SB or CUSA.

(05-10-2022 12:13 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 12:08 PM)solohawks Wrote:  There are too many schools in the south and east that want to be FBS for the Sunbelt to die.

The only reason the WAC died was because the pool of upgrades in the west was limited to Big Sky schools and they all said no thanks.

That's a problem the SunBelt or CUSA would not face.

As I said in the following post, you can't just move up a bunch of FCS schools and call it an FBS conference. It is simply an FCS conference with 1 to 3 FBS schools in it and they may cease to meet FBS requirements.

The WAC and Sun Belt spanned across the continent for a time. If it was that easy, the WAC could have survived with NMSU and a bunch of southern indies, some of them affiliates. But it didn't.

The full sports membership requirement was the kicker.

An ASun, Caa, SoCon, Big South, etc school would gladly move all sports to the SunBelt if that allowed them to accomplish their goal of FBS

Contrarily, they would not do the same thing to the WAC. The cost was just too great.

The WAC couldn't have survived with a bunch of southern indys because they wouldn't have met the all sports requirements and most FCS conferences wouldn't allow you to withdraw for football and still play Olympic sports in the same conference.

(05-10-2022 12:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:43 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:28 AM)Yosef181 Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 11:15 AM)bullet Wrote:  They should have expanded to kill off the CUSA and turn the G5 into a G4. Add UTEP and Texas St. Then Sun Belt and MAC probably add 3 of the remaining leaving only one out of WKU/MTSU/FIU/LT. NMSU and Liberty stay indie. Jax St. and SHSU stay FCS.

In time, the Sun Belt may regret not going to 16 and finishing off CUSA.

That wouldn't have killed C-USA. As long as C-USA is attached to the CFP and the Access Bowl, there are FCS schools out there willing to move to gain exposure. Jacksonville State, SHSU, and NMSU would've still joined. Eastern Kentucky, Tarleton State, Kennesaw State, and others would've joined.

The only thing your scenario would've led to is the MWC, MAC, and SBC taking schools they don't want to cut their individual payouts.

They wouldn't have had enough members to remain a contractual football conference and they would have dissolved as a football conference, just like the WAC.

They would've been fine. C-USA would not have dissolved in your scenario. We would just have more FBS schools.

FCS schools need to play a certain number of FBS schools to meet the requirements. If you have more FCS schools, at some point you are simply an FCS conference.

If 10 FCS schools moved into an FBS conference, they would be considered full FBS schools in an FBS conference in 2 years. In the meantime, a waiver would be granted to the conference as long as plans are in place.

(05-09-2022 11:28 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:08 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

There's no actually about it. Marshall was the #1 football program in CUSA, by a wide margin. The SBC actually cares about winning football games.

Conference Records, Football
Marshall 68-34 (66.67%)
Louisiana Tech 61-41 (59.8%)
Western Kentucky 54-37 (59.34%)
UAB 42-32 (56.76%)
MTSU (51-48 (51.52%)
FAU 47-50 (48.45%)
North Texas 45-54 (45.45%)
Southern Miss 44-54 (44.9%)
ODU 31-42 (42.47%)
UTSA 40-56 (41.67%)
FIU 37-55 (40.22%)
Rice 34-59 (36.56%)
Charlotte 21-46 (31.34%)
UTEP 23-70 (24.73%)

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/more.../99119936/

My favorite quotes from that Tigerdroppings thread concerning Tech being in the top 3 for Football, Basketball and Baseball:

"LaTech gets more bang for the buck than almost any other athletic program in the country."

"So LA Tech proved winning games actually doesn’t matter"

Both show the truth.

As for the topic in this thread in general. I'll reiterate that Tech should have gotten in instead of UTEP in 2005. It wouldn't have saved CUSA but I do think that UTEP being deadweight starting when they entered really started the cracks in the foundation with the "distance" and "Texas-centric" complaints. If UTEP kept their 40,000 plus attendance and elite MBB, things would have been different.

Now when the 2012/13 realignment saga happened, I think things would have ended up similarly. Thinking the Big East/AAC stills adds the same teams, I still think we would have ended up with this:

EAST
ODU
Charlotte
FAU
FIU
WKU
MTSU
Marshall

WEST
UAB
USM
LaTech
Rice
UNT
UTSA
TXST. / stAte

Chasing markets and excluding FCS adds, the East is still the same. In the west, TXST or stAte taking UTEP's spot is the only difference. I think Tech and the Texas schools would have favored TXST, but Arkansas State would get support from some eastern schools and possibly (arguably) bring the Memphis market, which was all the rage at the time.

The conference would still have the distance problem, though considerably less as the F_U twins would be the only outliers. There would still be at least 3 Texas schools so that would still be a complaint, though the schools would be closer to each other and lend to travel pairs so there would be less of an inconvenience.

It's all moot though. The conference's big Achille's heel was the conference's media deal. Having scorned ESPN and then having games relegated to various streaming platforms was always going to cause discontent. A tighter geographical footprint wasn't going to overcome that when other conferences were getting better deals.

------

A big question though would be, what would have happened to the Sun Belt in this UTEP/LaTech 2005 swap scenario. They had to survive in 2012 by calling up FCS teams and saving the teams out west from football independence. By CUSA taking TXST or stAte, the Sun Belt would have had to have found another full conference member. EKU or Chattanooga? It would have made their geography tighter but also have limited JMU coming up later most likely. JMU would have to accept a CUSA callup in 2021 as their only option to get into FBS.

(05-10-2022 12:30 PM)dawgonit Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:28 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:08 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

There's no actually about it. Marshall was the #1 football program in CUSA, by a wide margin. The SBC actually cares about winning football games.

Conference Records, Football
Marshall 68-34 (66.67%)
Louisiana Tech 61-41 (59.8%)
Western Kentucky 54-37 (59.34%)
UAB 42-32 (56.76%)
MTSU (51-48 (51.52%)
FAU 47-50 (48.45%)
North Texas 45-54 (45.45%)
Southern Miss 44-54 (44.9%)
ODU 31-42 (42.47%)
UTSA 40-56 (41.67%)
FIU 37-55 (40.22%)
Rice 34-59 (36.56%)
Charlotte 21-46 (31.34%)
UTEP 23-70 (24.73%)

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/more.../99119936/

My favorite quotes from that Tigerdroppings thread concerning Tech being in the top 3 for Football, Basketball and Baseball:

"LaTech gets more bang for the buck than almost any other athletic program in the country."

"So LA Tech proved winning games actually doesn’t matter"

Both show the truth.

As for the topic in this thread in general. I'll reiterate that Tech should have gotten in instead of UTEP in 2005. It wouldn't have saved CUSA but I do think that UTEP being deadweight starting when they entered really started the cracks in the foundation with the "distance" and "Texas-centric" complaints. If UTEP kept their 40,000 plus attendance and elite MBB, things would have been different.

Now when the 2012/13 realignment saga happened, I think things would have ended up similarly. Thinking the Big East/AAC stills adds the same teams, I still think we would have ended up with this:

EAST
ODU
Charlotte
FAU
FIU
WKU
MTSU
Marshall

WEST
UAB
USM
LaTech
Rice
UNT
UTSA
TXST. / stAte

Chasing markets and excluding FCS adds, the East is still the same. In the west, TXST or stAte taking UTEP's spot is the only difference. I think Tech and the Texas schools would have favored TXST, but Arkansas State would get support from some eastern schools and possibly (arguably) bring the Memphis market, which was all the rage at the time.

The conference would still have the distance problem, though considerably less as the F_U twins would be the only outliers. There would still be at least 3 Texas schools so that would still be a complaint, though the schools would be closer to each other and lend to travel pairs so there would be less of an inconvenience.

It's all moot though. The conference's big Achille's heel was the conference's media deal. Having scorned ESPN and then having games relegated to various streaming platforms was always going to cause discontent. A tighter geographical footprint wasn't going to overcome that when other conferences were getting better deals.

------

A big question though would be, what would have happened to the Sun Belt in this UTEP/LaTech 2005 swap scenario. They had to survive in 2012 by calling up FCS teams and saving the teams out west from football independence. By CUSA taking TXST or stAte, the Sun Belt would have had to have found another full conference member. EKU or Chattanooga? It would have made their geography tighter but also have limited JMU coming up later most likely. JMU would have to accept a CUSA callup in 2021 as their only option to get into FBS.

UTEP could’ve won 10 games a season and averaged 45k in attendance and the outcome would’ve been the same. Louisiana Tech instead of UTEP wouldn’t have prevented anything either. You don’t turn down an invitation to a BCS conference that still had Louisville, Cincinnati, Rutgers and UConn and the chance to play Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette in basketball in a league that plays its basketball tournament in Madison Square Garden. You just don’t.

The “UTEP is too far” complaints were an easy way for fans to hide their school mediocrity in both revenue sports. Somebody had to be blamed and UTEP was an easy target.

It’s interesting that UTEP getting invited to C-USA over LA Tech for the 2005 season came up. That was definitely a move that had some serious repercussions:

Let’s say that the WAC still adds NMSU, Idaho, and Utah St to complete their 9-team league for 2005.

The WAC is still going to reach a point where they are down to just 5 schools after Boise, Nevada, Fresno, and Hawaii leave (San Jose St, Idaho, Utah St, UTEP, NMSU).

Would UTSA, Texas St, and UTA still been interested in the WAC if they weren’t the bridge to LA Tech? Yeah, probably.

If LA Tech is already in C-USA then my guess is MTSU gets added in their place in the first wave of C-USA expansion in 2012 and then it’s WKU and FAU that come in to replace Tulane and ECU. Which then begs the question, who does C-USA bring in to replace Tulsa?

East: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU
West: UNT, UTSA, Rice, LA Tech, USM, UAB, ?

If I had to guess, I’d say Ark St.

I have to wonder if then the Sunbelt adds NMSU and UTEP as full members circa 2013-2014 for a line up of:

West: NMSU, UTEP, Texas St, ULL, ULM (+ UTA & UALR)
East: USA, Troy, GA St, GA So, App St

Coastal Carolina doesn’t get an opportunity to move up during that expansion round.

This could mean things shake out a little differently and USM, ODU, and Marshall wouldn’t be so excited to jump ship for a league that already had to resort to taking NMSU and UTEP for survival and the SBC and C-USA just decide to shuffle members to establish some clearer geographic footprints circa 2021.

(05-10-2022 01:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It’s interesting that UTEP getting invited to C-USA over LA Tech for the 2005 season came up. That was definitely a move that had some serious repercussions:

Let’s say that the WAC still adds NMSU, Idaho, and Utah St to complete their 9-team league for 2005.

The WAC is still going to reach a point where they are down to just 5 schools after Boise, Nevada, Fresno, and Hawaii leave (San Jose St, Idaho, Utah St, UTEP, NMSU).

Would UTSA, Texas St, and UTA still been interested in the WAC if they weren’t the bridge to LA Tech? Yeah, probably.

If LA Tech is already in C-USA then my guess is MTSU gets added in their place in the first wave of C-USA expansion in 2012 and then it’s WKU and FAU that come in to replace Tulane and ECU. Which then begs the question, who does C-USA bring in to replace Tulsa?

East: Marshall, ODU, Charlotte, FAU, FIU, WKU, MTSU
West: UNT, UTSA, Rice, LA Tech, USM, UAB, ?

If I had to guess, I’d say Ark St.

I have to wonder if then the Sunbelt adds NMSU and UTEP as full members circa 2013-2014 for a line up of:

West: NMSU, UTEP, Texas St, ULL, ULM (+ UTA & UALR)
East: USA, Troy, GA St, GA So, App St

Coastal Carolina doesn’t get an opportunity to move up during that expansion round.

This could mean things shake out a little differently and USM, ODU, and Marshall wouldn’t be so excited to jump ship for a league that already had to resort to taking NMSU and UTEP for survival and the SBC and C-USA just decide to shuffle members to establish some clearer geographic footprints circa 2021.

From what I remember back then the reason why UTEP was considered over Louisiana Tech was because Marshall, East Carolina, Southern Miss, Tulane and Memphis did not LT especially Memphis. Houston and UAB were indifferent and SMU, Rice and Tulsa favored Tech over UTEP since the latter was seen as too WACish and they were desperately trying to get away from anything that reminded them of the WAC. Take it for what it’s worth though.

P.S. I remember the final vote was not even UTEP vs Louisiana Tech exactly 18 years ago. It was more like who votes to invite UTEP. Basically at that point Louisiana Tech was eliminated and North Texas was told no days before.

Regardless of what schools were selected throughout the years, I think the C-USA leadership is the real problem. I say this as an Alumni / sports fan of a soon to be former school...

(05-10-2022 08:58 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 07:01 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 07:16 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 06:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think the critical point was, after losing UCF, SMU, Houston, and Memphis and then calling off the alliance with the MWC, they added 6 to replace 4 and the projected line up would have been:

West: UTEP, UTSA, UNT, Rice, Tulsa, Tulane, LA Tech
East: USM, UAB, Marshall, ECU, ODU, Charlotte, FIU

IMHO, this was an over expansion they didn’t need. I would have left out ODU and Charlotte, despite the risk of alienating ECU and Marshall. ECU was going to turn around and leave soon any way and I would have then replaced ECU, Tulane, and Tulsa with MTSU, FIU, and WKU:

West: UTEP, UTSA, UNT, Rice, LA Tech, USM
East: UAB, MTSU, WKU, Marshall, FAU, and FIU

The tricky thing that I don’t think anyone could have expected ULL, App St, and Coastal to have the great seasons they’ve had recently.

It's easy to just say "who cares about alienating ECU and Marshall since ECU was leaving anyway" with the benefit of hindsight, but trust me as an ECU fan I remember that time very well and it was not an inevitability ECU was getting in the Big East. ECU would have also had a lot of power in the league office at that time and any horse-trading around getting certain candidates would have required accommodating ECU in some way, same as you'd have needed to accommodate USM/Tulane/UAB (the other remaining C-USA 1.0 members). Charlotte was not really ECU's idea, they were an original C-USA 1.0 all-sports member (less football of course) and from everything I heard at the time were told if they ever started football they'd pretty much get back into C-USA when they were "booted" back in the day. Now yes ODU was Terry Holland's pet project, he fought hard to convince ODU to want to move up and to convince C-USA to add them and to go above and beyond 12 members. However, what doomed C-USA had little to do with who they added or the number of schools added and everything to do with leaving ESPN and nuking the bridge on the way out the door. Lord Britton deserves far more blame for the demise of C-USA than Hot Wheels Judy does, really by the time she took over the damage was done. He was smart enough to quit before the revised TV deal was signed, but best believe he knew what that deal was gonna look like when he left.

The bolded part is false. Though it wasn't the defining factor, I would rate it as the second biggest factor. CUSA moved SoMiss and UAB to the west leaving Marshall alone with 6 new schools we had no history with. We lost SoMiss, UAB, UCF and ECU! Those are teams our fans cared about and had an emotional investment in. When those schools left we or were moved to the West we had no rivals left. Fans started to not care as they didn't know these new teams at all. Ticket sales started to stagnate and fan engagement started to wane. Combining that with not being on ESPN and the casual fan not being able to find the games was not a recipe for success. I leave out my comments regarding CUSA HQ and their love affair with everything Texas.

The bolded part isn't really false. If C-USA still had a good relationship with ESPN and hadn't nuked that bridge ESPN likely doesn't make it financially viable to move from C-USA to the Sun-Belt. C-USA could have added whoever would have been deemed the more "preferred" picks, but because they nuked the ESPN relationship the TV deal the league was getting was doomed to be a disaster no matter what.

It's false as in it wasn't the only reason. There were combinations of issues... No ESPN, Lack of Rivalries, CUSA HQ decisons.

(05-10-2022 09:52 AM)inutech Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 07:01 AM)GreenBison Wrote:  I leave out my comments regarding CUSA HQ and their love affair with everything Texas.

I was going to say that'd be a first.

But then you didn't leave them out, did you?

I didn't elaborate did I? I know LaTech loves Texas and that's ok.

I actually think CUSA handled this round about as well as they could have. This league was really close to not existing anymore, and they walked away with a solid basketball identity, a few football brands with growth potential, and at least a short-term future. They had a terrible hand, but played it pretty well.

I think the league's two huge mistakes were back in 2012/2013. One of them was a defensible mistake. The league decided to add membership with a market-centered focus, rather than a fan or brand-centeric focus. They thought that adding programs with growth potential in places like Miami, Charlotte, San Antonio etc would lead to an improved product, and eventually, improved media rights and attention....even though those brands were mostly lousy at the time. This bet did not pay off at all. Some of that is CUSA's fault, a lot of that is the school's fault, and some of that was just plain bad luck.

The other, related problem, was that administrators tied with league schools rebuffed some FCS and Sun Belt programs in a way that left those administrators feeling deeply, personally disrespected. Some of those admins moved up in their careers over the last decade, and when the fortunes of the leagues had shifted, CUSA was sure to get absolutely zero mercy or benefit of the doubt.

Not much you can really do about that now, but hope that every single CUSA school nails every single hire in the short term. Their margin for error is very, very, very small.