(05-09-2022 08:18 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Agree. Appalachian State was the "fulcrum".

SBC first added Georgia State which opened the door for the AppSt/GaSt pairing.

Had CUSA added Georgia St I doubt App would have agreed to move up to the SBC as weak as it was at the time.

WAC might have survived over SBC instead.

Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

(05-09-2022 10:06 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 08:18 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Agree. Appalachian State was the "fulcrum".

SBC first added Georgia State which opened the door for the AppSt/GaSt pairing.

Had CUSA added Georgia St I doubt App would have agreed to move up to the SBC as weak as it was at the time.

WAC might have survived over SBC instead.

I don't see why C-USA would have picked up GSU tho. After their first season winning 6 games in FCS (vs Shorter, Campbell, Morehead St, Savannah St, NCCU, and Lamar, hardly a gauntlet), they won 4 more games over the next two seasons before heading to FBS, and won 1 game in their first 2 years as FBS. They just weren't seen as a great candidate for expansion. SBC was desperate at that point and GSU was the one who would pick up the phone.

(05-09-2022 10:17 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:06 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 08:18 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Agree. Appalachian State was the "fulcrum".

SBC first added Georgia State which opened the door for the AppSt/GaSt pairing.

Had CUSA added Georgia St I doubt App would have agreed to move up to the SBC as weak as it was at the time.

WAC might have survived over SBC instead.

I don't see why C-USA would have picked up GSU tho. After their first season winning 6 games in FCS (vs Shorter, Campbell, Morehead St, Savannah St, NCCU, and Lamar, hardly a gauntlet), they won 4 more games over the next two seasons before heading to FBS, and won 1 game in their first 2 years as FBS. They just weren't seen as a great candidate for expansion. SBC was desperate at that point and GSU was the one who would pick up the phone.

Markets. Especially the giant Atlanta market and only the 3rd FBS program in Georgia at the time.

SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

CUSA could have gone with Georgia St over UTSA leaving them in the WAC and tipping the balance of power in favor of the WAC who then could raid for ULL, Troy and Arkansas St. ULM ends up having to move down without a conference.

(05-09-2022 10:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

(05-09-2022 10:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

(05-09-2022 04:39 PM)CoachMaclid Wrote:  The eventual fate of C-USA was set in motion even before the first team left for the Big East...

In 2011, C-USA's media rights were - Tier 1 ESPN, Tier 2 Fox Sports, Tier 3 CBSSN.... and when the 2012 deal came around took their Tier 1 rights to Fox Sports for almost double the money at the time for a 4 year deal. Of course, The Big East would come later that year and take 4 members then and 3 more the year later. C-USA's market strategy was to defend the TV contract, but that really failed. Fox Sports walked away after the deal expired and ESPN showed no interest in paying for those rights. That left CBSSN as the only bidder for Tier 1, and the league has had a dizzying spin of failed Tier 2 solutions - from BeIn Sports to ASN to Stadium to Stadium supported with Facebook subleasing... each deal since 2015 has been worse than the one before.

They gambled on Fox and the leadership there decided they didn't live up what they were being paid.

I believe there was also a thought Facebook and Stadium had a big growth trajectory ahead of them in televising college sports. The mouse stole everyone's steaming lunch with ESPN+.

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

(05-09-2022 02:33 PM)inutech Wrote:  Should have added Notre Dame and App St.

And maybe inked a deal with CBS for prime time Saturday spots (and millions of dollars more per team).

No way Notre Dame was joining. App State would have been a good move, along with having both CBS Sports and E$PN. Like 'em or hate 'em, E$PN does wield a lot of power.

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

(05-09-2022 11:08 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

There's no actually about it. Marshall was the #1 football program in CUSA, by a wide margin. The SBC actually cares about winning football games.

Conference Records, Football
Marshall 68-34 (66.67%)
Louisiana Tech 61-41 (59.8%)
Western Kentucky 54-37 (59.34%)
UAB 42-32 (56.76%)
MTSU (51-48 (51.52%)
FAU 47-50 (48.45%)
North Texas 45-54 (45.45%)
Southern Miss 44-54 (44.9%)
ODU 31-42 (42.47%)
UTSA 40-56 (41.67%)
FIU 37-55 (40.22%)
Rice 34-59 (36.56%)
Charlotte 21-46 (31.34%)
UTEP 23-70 (24.73%)

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/more.../99119936/

(05-09-2022 10:34 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

I'm actually surprised that UTEP didn't get that MWC call last year... since they were working the phones feverishly with Baker (UNT), Karlgaard (Rice), and Campos (UTSA).

Subsequent to AAC expansion, the MWC took that opportunity to throw shade at UTEP. Thompson must have forgotten about the project.

That being said, in 2005 UTEP was on the rise with BCG coaching MBB and Mike Price coaching FB.

This is speculation, but (IMO) Mike Price - due to his time at Washington State - felt that the recruiting grounds in the East (specifically the other Texas locales) were more fertile than the ones he had just left in the West. UTEP was also packing the Sun Bowl at that time and the alumni bases in Dallas and Houston were attractive.

There was no reason to believe that UTEP would fall off like they did. If Mike Price could've built UTEP like George O'Leary built UCF, those Dallas and Houston roots would've yielded much more fruit than anything out West. It also didn't help matters when BCG (and Doc Sadler to a lesser extent) bolted quickly after UTEP got the CUSA invite.

Would Louisiana Tech been a better invite? In hindsight, yes... knowing that Price couldn't keep the crowds and BCG would leave so soon. However, how do you say no to 40-50K at the Sun Bowl?? CUSA was hoping for an ECU-Caliber Football program (with an NCAA worthy MBB team) on their Western edge and it just fizzled out. It's hard to fault that thinking with the infrastructure and coaches in place at that time.

(05-09-2022 11:28 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:08 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  SBC was teetering until Karl Benson the realignment king realized astutely the SBC had longer term prospects than the WAC and moved to build the SBC into the super conference it is today.

Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

There's no actually about it. Marshall was the #1 football program in CUSA, by a wide margin. The SBC actually cares about winning football games.

Conference Records, Football
Marshall 68-34 (66.67%)
Louisiana Tech 61-41 (59.8%)
Western Kentucky 54-37 (59.34%)
UAB 42-32 (56.76%)
MTSU (51-48 (51.52%)
FAU 47-50 (48.45%)
North Texas 45-54 (45.45%)
Southern Miss 44-54 (44.9%)
ODU 31-42 (42.47%)
UTSA 40-56 (41.67%)
FIU 37-55 (40.22%)
Rice 34-59 (36.56%)
Charlotte 21-46 (31.34%)
UTEP 23-70 (24.73%)

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/more.../99119936/

The Belt better hope that Marshall doesn't just disappear like they did when they got the CUSA invite.

Marshall (like UTEP) suffered major performance anxiety when they got the CUSA ticket. There was a lot of high expectations for both that went unmet when they got the votes.

(05-09-2022 11:30 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:34 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

I'm actually surprised that UTEP didn't get that MWC call last year... since they were working the phones feverishly with Baker (UNT), Karlgaard (Rice), and Campos (UTSA).

Subsequent to AAC expansion, the MWC took that opportunity to throw shade at UTEP. Thompson must have forgotten about the project.

That being said, in 2005 UTEP was on the rise with BCG coaching MBB and Mike Price coaching FB.

This is speculation, but (IMO) Mike Price - due to his time at Washington State - felt that the recruiting grounds in the East (specifically the other Texas locales) were more fertile than the ones he had just left in the West. UTEP was also packing the Sun Bowl at that time and the alumni bases in Dallas and Houston were attractive.

There was no reason to believe that UTEP would fall off like they did. If Mike Price could've built UTEP like George O'Leary built UCF, those Dallas and Houston roots would've yielded much more fruit than anything out West. It also didn't help matters when BCG (and Doc Sadler to a lesser extent) bolted quickly after UTEP got the CUSA invite.

Would Louisiana Tech been a better invite? In hindsight, yes... knowing that Price couldn't keep the crowds and BCG would leave so soon. However, how do you say no to 40-50K at the Sun Bowl?? CUSA was hoping for an ECU-Caliber Football program (with an NCAA worthy MBB team) on their Western edge and it just fizzled out. It's hard to fault that thinking with the infrastructure and coaches in place at that time.

There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year. Not until they get raided which the chances of that happening are slim.

UTEP will be there. They’re not going anywhere. The MWC knows that and they have the upper hand so what’s the rush? The other Western G5 that’s not in the MWC (NMSU) is in the same boat as UTEP. Let’s say the Big XII expands to 14 and they add Colorado State and South Florida to be the bridges to BYU and Central Florida just like Cincinnati is the bridge to West Virginia. That’s an scenario where UTEP might have a chance but even then that’s not a given. The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

(05-09-2022 10:34 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:09 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Let's say UTEP never got the call up for CUSA 2.0. Left behind in the WAC for eternity like NMSU.

Today they would be in CUSA 4.0 just like they are now.

Unless the WAC was able to finish of the SBC. Karl Benson flipping from WAC to SBC was also a key factor in all of this.

If UTEP never got the call to C-USA 2.0, it would be in the MWC where it belongs.

Let’s not forget if the rumor is true from 2010, it was UTEP who told the MWC what BYU and Karl Benson were trying to do with “the project.” Probably the one school that would have been left in the cold in the WAC with NMSU and Idaho is San Jose State not UTEP. If Utah State got invited to the MWC, the one school that tried with BYU to destroy it there’s no reason why UTEP would’ve been invited if it was still in the WAC. Another rumor floating from Utah State fans back then was San Jose State got the 12th spot because UTEP said no. When San Diego State was still undecided if they were going back to the MWC once Boise State changed its mind in going to the Big East, they apparently were told by the MWC they had x days to make a decision or “we’re going to call UTEP.” Let’s say SJSU was left behind. Would they have gone to the Sun Belt with NMSU and Idaho for four years? Drop to FCS like Idaho did? Tried independence like NMSU?

So in other words, had UTEP not made the mistake in accepting the C-USA invite in May 2004, it would be in the MWC by now. That spot in C-USA belonged to Louisiana Tech. I hope UTEP had learned the lesson and stops chasing Texas schools, nothing good has come from doing so since the 90s from the WAC-16 to now. Enough.

All this sounds plausible that UTEP had they stayed in the WAC rather than moved to CUSA 2.0 when the last spots for MWC 2.0 were decided could have beat out Utah St or SJSU for it.

SBC beat out the WAC first before the "App" turnaround ever happened. Then eventually pieced up CUSA.

(05-09-2022 11:32 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:28 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:08 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:31 PM)inutech Wrote:  Come on now.

Your realignment king has the world record for teams being stolen away.

Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

There's no actually about it. Marshall was the #1 football program in CUSA, by a wide margin. The SBC actually cares about winning football games.

Conference Records, Football
Marshall 68-34 (66.67%)
Louisiana Tech 61-41 (59.8%)
Western Kentucky 54-37 (59.34%)
UAB 42-32 (56.76%)
MTSU (51-48 (51.52%)
FAU 47-50 (48.45%)
North Texas 45-54 (45.45%)
Southern Miss 44-54 (44.9%)
ODU 31-42 (42.47%)
UTSA 40-56 (41.67%)
FIU 37-55 (40.22%)
Rice 34-59 (36.56%)
Charlotte 21-46 (31.34%)
UTEP 23-70 (24.73%)

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/more.../99119936/

The Belt better hope that Marshall doesn't just disappear like they did when they got the CUSA invite.

Marshall (like UTEP) suffered major performance anxiety when they got the CUSA ticket. There was a lot of high expectations for both that went unmet when they got the votes.

The fact is none of the five schools invited met their expectations. Tulsa was surprisingly good in football but it was their basketball program that made it to the Elite Eight in 2001 the main reason why they were invited. That basketball program never recovered once Self left. Marshall was not the Marshall of the late 90’s and early 00’s. SMU was a hot mess in both revenue sports with very weak fan support. It wasn’t until June Jones was hired that they starting righting the ship. Rice went bowling for the first time since the Eisenhower administration. UTEP basketball failed to deliver and Mike Price couldn’t sustain the success he enjoyed his first two seasons.

C-USA 2.0 never sent a rep to the BCS. Only UAB and UTEP occasionally challenged Memphis in basketball but it was still a one bid league for the most part. SMU, Rice, Tulane, ECU, Marshall, Southern Miss, Tulsa, Houston and UCF were either bad or terrible in hoops. It was just a mediocre conference.

If UTEP stayed in the WAC, would NMSU still be a full member of the Sun Belt? If UTEP is still in the WAC in 2005, the WAC may have looked. I doubt WAC football survives past the 2012 season, as the Sun Belt might have taken UTEP to replace Western Kentucky:

SBC West: NMSU, UTEP, ULL, ULM, Texas St, Idaho*
SBC East: Ga So, Ga St, App St, Troy, USA, Ark St

When Idaho is non-renewed, add Coastal Carolina and move Arkansas State to the West.

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The MWC might ask SMU if they’re interested or they might decide to stay at 11 in FB and 10 in BB.

With the years on that AAC ESPN contract having another decade to go, there is no chance SMU trades 7 million (and much better exposure windows with ESPN/ABC) for half that (3.5 million) in the MWC and FOX exposure.

Granted, if the AAC got raided that wouldn't be optimal. However, the AAC expanded to 14 teams in part so it had a comfortable cushion. SMU may even get more television exposures out of the deal.

Let us not forget:

The American Athletic Conference had a MUCH deeper expansion pool the last time (relative to the MWC's raid of the WAC - which was their only viable expansion pool), and Aresco passed on a lot of good programs (like Marshall) who were far more valuable than the MWC's actual additions (like SJSU).

The AAC has a long list of teams it could plug in before they reach the MWC's current predicament (which is a remarkable lack of expansion options outside of UTEP, NMSU, and Texas State).

IMO, if the MWC got raided of just 1 team (to a P5), then Air Force would be on the phone to the AAC faster than you can say "thank you drive thru." UTEP would presumably be their response.

(05-10-2022 12:13 AM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:32 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:28 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 11:08 PM)TroyTBoy Wrote:  

(05-09-2022 10:57 PM)TroyFootball05 Wrote:  Come on now.

That world record holder just stole your #1 football program.

Actually the AAC got the most desirable expansion properties. Marshall was on their cut list.

There's no actually about it. Marshall was the #1 football program in CUSA, by a wide margin. The SBC actually cares about winning football games.

Conference Records, Football
Marshall 68-34 (66.67%)
Louisiana Tech 61-41 (59.8%)
Western Kentucky 54-37 (59.34%)
UAB 42-32 (56.76%)
MTSU (51-48 (51.52%)
FAU 47-50 (48.45%)
North Texas 45-54 (45.45%)
Southern Miss 44-54 (44.9%)
ODU 31-42 (42.47%)
UTSA 40-56 (41.67%)
FIU 37-55 (40.22%)
Rice 34-59 (36.56%)
Charlotte 21-46 (31.34%)
UTEP 23-70 (24.73%)

https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/more.../99119936/

The Belt better hope that Marshall doesn't just disappear like they did when they got the CUSA invite.

Marshall (like UTEP) suffered major performance anxiety when they got the CUSA ticket. There was a lot of high expectations for both that went unmet when they got the votes.

The fact is none of the five schools invited met their expectations. Tulsa was surprisingly good in football but it was their basketball program that made it to the Elite Eight in 2001 the main reason why they were invited. That basketball program never recovered once Self left. Marshall was not the Marshall of the late 90’s and early 00’s. SMU was a hot mess in both revenue sports with very weak fan support. It wasn’t until June Jones was hired that they starting righting the ship. Rice went bowling for the first time since the Eisenhower administration. UTEP basketball failed to deliver and Mike Price couldn’t sustain the success he enjoyed his first two seasons.

C-USA 2.0 never sent a rep to the BCS. Only UAB and UTEP occasionally challenged Memphis in basketball but it was still a one bid league for the most part. SMU, Rice, Tulane, ECU, Marshall, Southern Miss, Tulsa, Houston and UCF were either bad or terrible in hoops. It was just a mediocre conference.

Once the CUSA moved to CSTV everyone suffered.

It was a gamble that Banowsky took that had long-lasting detrimental effects.

(05-09-2022 11:55 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  There’s no reason for the MWC to expand regardless if it was last year, this year or next year.

Here's some Tuesday trivia:

The MWC has the same number of Access Bowl appearances as the MAC... with 1.