I've started to post this on the media rights thread, and then on one of the "Case for X members" threads, but it's probably best just to put it here on its own.

To be clear, personally, I do not support adding non-football members, and I'm not a huge fan of adding a football-only member, but the latter is slightly more palatable to me than the former, assuming the new team adds competitive and media value. Anyway, on to the point of discussion...

It appears that -- if the media consultants recommend it -- CUSA is willing to at least consider adding a football-only school to get to 10 members. If this happens, imho, the only candidate which would really add value would be NDSU. I don't think UMass or UConn would increase football viewership, and to my knowledge, there just aren't any football-only candidates available in the south and southwest.

But while NDSU would be a very strong add on the football end of things, going to 10 for football and remaining at 9 for OLY sports seems... backwards.

Nine is a terrific number for football, allowing for a round-robin 8-game conference schedule, with 4 OOC slots. Going to ten members costs you an OOC game, and at the G5 level, those games are important for both revenue and schedule strength, not to mention maintaining regional rivalries for fan interest.

The only way around this problem would be to skip a conference opponent each season and continue playing an 8-game schedule. It can certainly be done, but it's messy and awkward.

Meanwhile, over in OLY sports, nine is less than ideal. A round-robin home-and-away schedule only yields 16 games. Ten is better (18 games) but 12 or 14 members seems to be the magic number here, allowing for plenty of conference games and, depending how divisional play is structured, easing the travel burden between far-flung opponents.

So a couple questions...

1) Besides the usual suspects (NDSU, UConn, and UMass), are there any other realistic options for football-only additions? (Army probably won't happen, and Notre Dame is a no.) Am I forgetting someone obvious?

2) Which non-football additions might be worth considering? FGCU has been mentioned in some threads, since they'd provide a travel partner for FIU and still have some media allure thanks to the old Dunk City days. Who else would add enough value to counteract the reduced NCAA payouts?

I think most of us agree that *any* additions need to add value, or they become a detriment. And most would rather stay at 9 than add someone who drags us down. The debate centers mainly around which schools would help the cause.

The all-sports candidates have been discussed to death. I'm just trying to get a feel for other options out there.

(02-04-2022 10:52 AM)whupemall Wrote:  I've started to post this on the media rights thread, and then on one of the "Case for X members" threads, but it's probably best just to put it here on its own.

To be clear, personally, I do not support adding non-football members, and I'm not a huge fan of adding a football-only member, but the latter is slightly more palatable to me than the former, assuming the new team adds competitive and media value. Anyway, on to the point of discussion...

It appears that -- if the media consultants recommend it -- CUSA is willing to at least consider adding a football-only school to get to 10 members. If this happens, imho, the only candidate which would really add value would be NDSU. I don't think UMass or UConn would increase football viewership, and to my knowledge, there just aren't any football-only candidates available in the south and southwest.

But while NDSU would be a very strong add on the football end of things, going to 10 for football and remaining at 9 for OLY sports seems... backwards.

Nine is a terrific number for football, allowing for a round-robin 8-game conference schedule, with 4 OOC slots. Going to ten members costs you an OOC game, and at the G5 level, those games are important for both revenue and schedule strength, not to mention maintaining regional rivalries for fan interest.

The only way around this problem would be to skip a conference opponent each season and continue playing an 8-game schedule. It can certainly be done, but it's messy and awkward.

Meanwhile, over in OLY sports, nine is less than ideal. A round-robin home-and-away schedule only yields 16 games. Ten is better (18 games) but 12 or 14 members seems to be the magic number here, allowing for plenty of conference games and, depending how divisional play is structured, easing the travel burden between far-flung opponents.

So a couple questions...

1) Besides the usual suspects (NDSU, UConn, and UMass), are there any other realistic options for football-only additions? (Army probably won't happen, and Notre Dame is a no.) Am I forgetting someone obvious?

2) Which non-football additions might be worth considering? FGCU has been mentioned in some threads, since they'd provide a travel partner for FIU and still have some media allure thanks to the old Dunk City days. Who else would add enough value to counteract the reduced NCAA payouts?

I think most of us agree that *any* additions need to add value, or they become a detriment. And most would rather stay at 9 than add someone who drags us down. The debate centers mainly around which schools would help the cause.

The all-sports candidates have been discussed to death. I'm just trying to get a feel for other options out there.

FGCU would be a likely candidate for olympic sports to make travel to FIU more cost efficient. Don't know if they are remotely interested.

NDSU is the obvious 1st choice imo for a football only if CUSA decides to go that route. After Army says get lost.

A tenth football only team would absolutely shock me. I just don't see what the point would be for any realistic option.

A tenth non-football member might have made more sense (although not my preference). Seems like UALR or UTA would have been the play if they wanted that.

A tenth all sports member would be disappointing to me, but if tv makes it worth it, I guess it's worth it.

I care a lot more about Tech than CUSA here, too. The ADs will be thinking the same way, but the conference leadership will be thinking the opposite. It's an interesting dynamic.

(02-04-2022 10:52 AM)whupemall Wrote:  I've started to post this on the media rights thread, and then on one of the "Case for X members" threads, but it's probably best just to put it here on its own.

To be clear, personally, I do not support adding non-football members, and I'm not a huge fan of adding a football-only member, but the latter is slightly more palatable to me than the former, assuming the new team adds competitive and media value. Anyway, on to the point of discussion...

It appears that -- if the media consultants recommend it -- CUSA is willing to at least consider adding a football-only school to get to 10 members. If this happens, imho, the only candidate which would really add value would be NDSU. I don't think UMass or UConn would increase football viewership, and to my knowledge, there just aren't any football-only candidates available in the south and southwest.

But while NDSU would be a very strong add on the football end of things, going to 10 for football and remaining at 9 for OLY sports seems... backwards.

Nine is a terrific number for football, allowing for a round-robin 8-game conference schedule, with 4 OOC slots. Going to ten members costs you an OOC game, and at the G5 level, those games are important for both revenue and schedule strength, not to mention maintaining regional rivalries for fan interest.

The only way around this problem would be to skip a conference opponent each season and continue playing an 8-game schedule. It can certainly be done, but it's messy and awkward.

Meanwhile, over in OLY sports, nine is less than ideal. A round-robin home-and-away schedule only yields 16 games. Ten is better (18 games) but 12 or 14 members seems to be the magic number here, allowing for plenty of conference games and, depending how divisional play is structured, easing the travel burden between far-flung opponents.

So a couple questions...

1) Besides the usual suspects (NDSU, UConn, and UMass), are there any other realistic options for football-only additions? (Army probably won't happen, and Notre Dame is a no.) Am I forgetting someone obvious?

2) Which non-football additions might be worth considering? FGCU has been mentioned in some threads, since they'd provide a travel partner for FIU and still have some media allure thanks to the old Dunk City days. Who else would add enough value to counteract the reduced NCAA payouts?

I think most of us agree that *any* additions need to add value, or they become a detriment. And most would rather stay at 9 than add someone who drags us down. The debate centers mainly around which schools would help the cause.

The all-sports candidates have been discussed to death. I'm just trying to get a feel for other options out there.

1.) Villanova/Delaware/Richmond, something like that for Liberty and FIU maybe?

According to the article by Vannini (The Athletic) today in his opinion NDSU has a big problem. NO TV eyeballs-- they would bring zero value to the media deal of any conference it says in his article.

I'm not trying to argue but here are some counterpoints to some other teams mentioned.

Villanova-- have shown ZERO interest in the past; also they are making a ton of money in the Big East anyway

Richmond has a big stadium problem-- land locked and no room to expand (current-8700)

UCONN, UMASS-- talked about to death-- distance and very bad teams

FGCU-- maybe-- but why would THEY want to join C-USA?

If there was an easy, obvious and hugely advantageous team to add the conference would have already done so--- unless... the coming changes are DRAMATIC and "flush-out" a reluctant candidate.

(02-04-2022 12:26 PM)inutech Wrote:  A tenth football only team would absolutely shock me. I just don't see what the point would be for any realistic option.

A tenth non-football member might have made more sense (although not my preference). Seems like UALR or UTA would have been the play if they wanted that.

A tenth all sports member would be disappointing to me, but if tv makes it worth it, I guess it's worth it.

This is kind of where I am.

I mean, I like NDSU's football program a lot. It's run as well or better than many P5 programs. They'd be a huge boost for conference strength. ESPN loves them. Their fans travel like maniacs.

But would any of that be enough to make it worth extending the football footprint up to Fargo and moving to a conference count that's arguably worse than the one we have? I'm having a hard time saying yes.

Now, my opinion changes somewhat with all-sports teams. I'd be willing to go to 10 if it meant we were getting a team like SFA, who'd bring decent football along with really good hoops. But while the Lumberjacks would "balance the divisions" between east and west, with 10 members, you wouldn't really balance much. Most OLY sports would still require a round-robin format, erasing any travel benefits of divisional play.

I'm not a fan of adding non-football schools at all. There's a hard-wired philosophical difference between most schools that offer football and those who don't. But if we wound up adding a couple of all-sports schools and wound up with an odd number like 11, I could see extending an invitation to a non-football program to get to 12, as long as they serve a purpose for travel and move the needle in hoops.

FGCU would serve that purpose. If we needed someone out west, the only schools I can think of are the two leaving the Sun Belt, and I'm not sure either qualifies as "moving the needle" in anything. There's always New Orleans, but they're possibly about to add football and don't appear to have FBS dreams for that program.

I just don't see too many candidates out there. If expansion comes again, which it might, eventually, I think it'll be to add all-sports members to get to 12 (or whatever arbitrary number the media suits are willing to pay for).

Regardless, I don't think it'll happen anytime soon.

(02-04-2022 06:03 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  According to the article by Vannini (The Athletic) today in his opinion NDSU has a big problem. NO TV eyeballs-- they would bring zero value to the media deal of any conference it says in his article.

I'm not trying to argue but here are some counterpoints to some other teams mentioned.

Villanova-- have shown ZERO interest in the past; also they are making a ton of money in the Big East anyway

Richmond has a big stadium problem-- land locked and no room to expand (current-8700)

UCONN, UMASS-- talked about to death-- distance and very bad teams

FGCU-- maybe-- but why would THEY want to join C-USA?

If there was an easy, obvious and hugely advantageous team to add the conference would have already done so--- unless... the coming changes are DRAMATIC and "flush-out" a reluctant candidate.

I hope the reluctant candidate is who I want it to be

I think the rule for a football championship is that you have to either play round robin or have divisions. It's kind of silly to have divisions if you're going to play 4/5 teams from the other side anyway.

9 is very much my preference.

(02-04-2022 06:03 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  According to the article by Vannini (The Athletic) today in his opinion NDSU has a big problem. NO TV eyeballs-- they would bring zero value to the media deal of any conference it says in his article.

I'm not trying to argue but here are some counterpoints to some other teams mentioned.

Villanova-- have shown ZERO interest in the past; also they are making a ton of money in the Big East anyway

Richmond has a big stadium problem-- land locked and no room to expand (current-8700)

UCONN, UMASS-- talked about to death-- distance and very bad teams

FGCU-- maybe-- but why would THEY want to join C-USA?

If there was an easy, obvious and hugely advantageous team to add the conference would have already done so--- unless... the coming changes are DRAMATIC and "flush-out" a reluctant candidate.

I'm not saying NDSU is the answer if the conference decides on a 10th team for football but the idea that they have no value because of few eyeballs imo is missing the point. NDSU's tv value is their outstanding winning ways in fcs. Constant winning brings viewers beyond their specific location. Boise St is an example of that. Would they fade a bit in fbs?
That's the question but they certainly bring some notariety to the conference if they were to join.

(02-05-2022 10:42 PM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  

(02-04-2022 06:03 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  According to the article by Vannini (The Athletic) today in his opinion NDSU has a big problem. NO TV eyeballs-- they would bring zero value to the media deal of any conference it says in his article.

I'm not saying NDSU is the answer if the conference decides on a 10th team for football but the idea that they have no value because of few eyeballs imo is missing the point. NDSU's tv value is their outstanding winning ways in fcs. Constant winning brings viewers beyond their specific location. Boise St is an example of that. Would they fade a bit in fbs?
That's the question but they certainly bring some notariety to the conference if they were to join.

Exactly. NDSU's notoriety is FAR higher than most other FCS programs. The only possible exceptions are Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and (arguably) a handful of HBCUs.

There are plenty of good reasons not to invite the Bison to CUSA, but TV eyeballs is not one of them.

(02-04-2022 03:08 PM)BKTopper Wrote:  

(02-04-2022 10:52 AM)whupemall Wrote:  I've started to post this on the media rights thread, and then on one of the "Case for X members" threads, but it's probably best just to put it here on its own.

To be clear, personally, I do not support adding non-football members, and I'm not a huge fan of adding a football-only member, but the latter is slightly more palatable to me than the former, assuming the new team adds competitive and media value. Anyway, on to the point of discussion...

It appears that -- if the media consultants recommend it -- CUSA is willing to at least consider adding a football-only school to get to 10 members. If this happens, imho, the only candidate which would really add value would be NDSU. I don't think UMass or UConn would increase football viewership, and to my knowledge, there just aren't any football-only candidates available in the south and southwest.

But while NDSU would be a very strong add on the football end of things, going to 10 for football and remaining at 9 for OLY sports seems... backwards.

Nine is a terrific number for football, allowing for a round-robin 8-game conference schedule, with 4 OOC slots. Going to ten members costs you an OOC game, and at the G5 level, those games are important for both revenue and schedule strength, not to mention maintaining regional rivalries for fan interest.

The only way around this problem would be to skip a conference opponent each season and continue playing an 8-game schedule. It can certainly be done, but it's messy and awkward.

Meanwhile, over in OLY sports, nine is less than ideal. A round-robin home-and-away schedule only yields 16 games. Ten is better (18 games) but 12 or 14 members seems to be the magic number here, allowing for plenty of conference games and, depending how divisional play is structured, easing the travel burden between far-flung opponents.

So a couple questions...

1) Besides the usual suspects (NDSU, UConn, and UMass), are there any other realistic options for football-only additions? (Army probably won't happen, and Notre Dame is a no.) Am I forgetting someone obvious?

2) Which non-football additions might be worth considering? FGCU has been mentioned in some threads, since they'd provide a travel partner for FIU and still have some media allure thanks to the old Dunk City days. Who else would add enough value to counteract the reduced NCAA payouts?

I think most of us agree that *any* additions need to add value, or they become a detriment. And most would rather stay at 9 than add someone who drags us down. The debate centers mainly around which schools would help the cause.

The all-sports candidates have been discussed to death. I'm just trying to get a feel for other options out there.

1.) Villanova/Delaware/Richmond, something like that for Liberty and FIU maybe?

I personally would like to see these 3 talked about more, or even ETSU. They would create another eastern time zone team besides Liberty. Villanova and Delaware have been good for years. Delaware already has over 14,000 fans a game average.

9 to me is not ideal and seems like not a legit conference. I'd rather have 10 in all sports. I would group teams by division in terms of schedule, but you don't play one team on the other side of the bracket. That said, for standing, you group everyone together. That way you get the best 2 in the championship game, if the west or east tends to be terribly weak.

I know that was his opinion (Vannini) about NDSU. Matt Brown also said in one article that NDSU was not interested-- of course things change. Most of their fans want the MW.

(02-06-2022 05:48 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  I know that was his opinion (Vannini) about NDSU. Matt Brown also said in one article that NDSU was not interested-- of course things change. Most of their fans want the MW.

As long as the mwc keeps the 12 they have in football they most likey are not adding anyone and this last round of realignment showed that they want big markets and good recruiting areas and NDSU has neither.

Yes, IMO the chances of the MW adding them are less than 10%. No TV market, no recruiting area, possible weather and travel problems, etc..

C-USA may be more willing to take a chance on the Bison. Maybe not---- or NDSU may say no. Who knows?

9 is easily the best number of teams for a football conference.

It's the ideal for a "legit" conference. What's more legit than round robin?

10 is only for if you can get a lot more money from tv or care more about basketball than football (I don't but given the strength of our new conference, the presidents might). Probably not likely to make crazy more money with our options. 12 is better than 10 but we'd need 3 more options and that doesn't seem worth it. 14 is the trend, but it sucks. 11 is worse than 10, 13 pretty bad, too.

8 would be preferable to anything other than 9 or 12 (but that ship has sailed for now).

The problem with a nine member conference is that it is a hassle for scheduling Olympic sports. For basketball, it limits you to a 16 game schedule and everyone would have two days during the season where you don’t have a game. Is there another odd numbered conference we could partner with to fill in the blanks?

I don’t know how volleyball scheduling works so I don’t know if that’s a problem for them.

Baseball isn’t a problem as UTEP doesn’t sponsor baseball.

All that said, we don’t need to add someone just to get to an even number.

I am very much against a non-football member. I hated it in the OVC and ASUN. Good for the Sun Belt in kicking their non-footballs to the curb.

You’d have to change league rules to allow it. Would FGCU really move the needle that much? Yes, they made the Sweet 16 in 2013 but not much since.

Also not a fan of football only members. Yes, NDSU would be a big name but I’d rather not have them as an affiliate. I wish they could get into the MWC, but they are just too isolated for CUSA.

Villanova is a non-starter. terrible football funding and facilities. And just like UConn, there is zero chance they leave the Big East. Delaware has tons of potential but apparently no appetite for FBS.

Richmond? I hope that was suggested for laughs and not a serious suggestion. Tiny school with beautiful but miniture stadium and no ambition to play with the big boys once again. The Eastern Time Zone options are not attractive. Then again, neither are the Texan options that keep getting brought up in threads like this one. And I say this as a 30+ year resident of the Lone Star State.

Nine is just fine.

(02-06-2022 08:49 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  Villanova is a non-starter. terrible football funding and facilities. And just like UConn, there is zero chance they leave the Big East. Delaware has tons of potential but apparently no appetite for FBS.

Richmond? I hope that was suggested for laughs and not a serious suggestion. Tiny school with beautiful but miniture stadium and no ambition to play with the big boys once again. The Eastern Time Zone options are not attractive. Then again, neither are the Texan options that keep getting brought up in threads like this one. And I say this as a 30+ year resident of the Lone Star State.

Nine is just fine.

EKU and Kennesaw State are Eastern Time Zone. I think both, especially given a little more time, could be attractive. I don't know anything about ETSU, other than they beat Vanderbilt by 3 TD's. I don't think their basketball is bad. I get the issues with Villanova and Richmond, though they still.were two of the top revenue producing schools in FCS(Richmond was 8th, Villanova 10th). Richmond is making big time money when you include basketball. Delaware would have a chance if they wanted FBS. Their football budget is decent. I just looked at another link and between basketball and football, Delaware and Richmond are two FCS schools making the most money on those two sports.

https://thesportsarsenal.com/2021/02/19/...fcs-style/

(02-06-2022 08:49 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  Villanova is a non-starter. terrible football funding and facilities. And just like UConn, there is zero chance they leave the Big East. Delaware has tons of potential but apparently no appetite for FBS.

Richmond? I hope that was suggested for laughs and not a serious suggestion. Tiny school with beautiful but miniture stadium and no ambition to play with the big boys once again. The Eastern Time Zone options are not attractive. Then again, neither are the Texan options that keep getting brought up in threads like this one. And I say this as a 30+ year resident of the Lone Star State.

Nine is just fine.

Honestly I’m just trying to think outside the box about a tenth possibility few are talking about. I clearly gave no further thought to it.

And I’m coming up short. Besides the 3 I already brought up and the usual candidates (NDSU, a Texas school etc.) you’re looking at an HBCU —why would CUSA be more appealing over any of their current setup, even if for FBS?

In reality 9 is where we are for now.

I could see MT, Liberty, WKU, FIU, SH all leaving eventually. Then the geography can shift West a bit and there’s more options in general:

EKU
UCA
KSU
Tarleton
ACU
Utah Tech
Tennessee State/Chattanooga
SFA

NDSU has shown no interest in moving to FBS and they are tied to the Dakota's and the Montana's. They are not coming. Why do people talk like it is a possibility or even crazier: that they would join if we simply invited them? They are not going FBS and they are not coming to CUSA.