Then you get watered down ticket sales for the PAC schools if you add schools too far into the east unless you go 24 team conference with a pod of 6.

North:
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
Boise State
UNR (state flagship school that is more inline with the PAC 12 schools than UNLV.)

South:
California
Stanford
USC
UCLA
Hawaii
San Diego State

Rocky Mountai:
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
Colorado State
New Mexico

Plains:
TCU
Texas Tech
Oklahoma State
Houston
Kansas
Iowa State


You could play 5 games in or pods, and could play up to 7 games in the other 3 pods leaving other G5 and P4schools out.

(08-23-2021 11:53 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Clpp: switch BYU for Kansas and that’s good

I'm not exaggerating when I say that there would be a better chance that the SEC schools decide to stop playing football then there is of the California schools allowing BYU to join them in the Pac.

BYU's only path to the Pac involves the P12 having to rebuild after the B1G took half+ of the current membership.

(08-23-2021 12:37 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 11:53 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Clpp: switch BYU for Kansas and that’s good

I'm not exaggerating when I say that there would be a better chance that the SEC schools decide to stop playing football then there is of the California schools allowing BYU to join them in the Pac.

That sounds about right.

Quote: BYU's only path to the Pac involves the P12 having to rebuild after the B1G took half+ of the current membership.

Even then it might be tricky ... not so sure that Oregon State would go along with it, for one.

(08-23-2021 02:55 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 12:37 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 11:53 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Clpp: switch BYU for Kansas and that’s good

I'm not exaggerating when I say that there would be a better chance that the SEC schools decide to stop playing football then there is of the California schools allowing BYU to join them in the Pac.

That sounds about right.

Quote: BYU's only path to the Pac involves the P12 having to rebuild after the B1G took half+ of the current membership.

Even then it might be tricky ... not so sure that Oregon State would go along with it, for one.

True, just as the B12 has reservations about them in their current state so would the remaining P12 members.

Clpp: I unfortunately agree. Their cultural values don’t align.

The 4 California school, Oregon and Washington would sooner leave the PAC 12 and form their own conference or go independent than allow religious institutions like BYU and Baylor join them.

(08-23-2021 04:23 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  I know some commentators love the pod route, but ordinary fans would hate having divisions re-arrange every year or two.

And the division race is one of the things the media partners are selling ... one reason they like Big Ten East and West is because people understand them a lot more than they understood Leaders and Legends ... but Leader and Legends were better than pods as far as division brand equity.

I mean, you hang a "Division Champion 2027" banner and need to include a QR code on the banner so people can look up which division that WAS in 2027.

Can't argue against that. Hard to market pods. My latest attempt is just to label them as 4 divisions. That division banner hanging in Eugene will say "Northwest Division Champs" regardless of year. The division race, however, may read something like "Northwest+California" and "Mountain+Central" or what-have-you.

For rivals/rotation, you'd probably do 0 permanent rivals outside each of the 4 divisions and do a 4-year rotation where 2 divisions flip-flop every other year. This is, I believe, what the WAC tried. They had permanent division names; maybe you keep "North" and "South" and switch where the California and Central teams reside everyother year?

(08-22-2021 09:00 PM)Tulsa Guy Wrote:  Arizona and Arizona State certainly do not and will not give up playing SCal and UCLA. So an eastern division composed of AZ, ASU, Utah, Colorado, and 4 B12 schools is out of the question. It is being assumed that the four B12 (or TX/OK) schools would stay together but that may not be possible. And all PAC schools want to play the California schools for recruiting purposes. So maybe something like this. (I don't think PAC wants two private schools in TCU and Baylor but only one private school.)

NORTHERN DIVISION:
Stanford
California
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
Houston
TCU

SOUTHERN DIVISION:
Southern Cal
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
Texas Tech
Oklahoma State

I come back to this format too. Replace Tech with Kansas, and keep the "North" and "South" names. Maybe flip the expansion schools to keep them geographically sensible, relatively speaking.

Cross overs would be as follows (1 game against the listed 2, 1 game against the unlisted 6):
Stanford (UCLA, USC)
California (UCLA, USC)
Washington (Arizona St, Utah)
Washington State (Arizona, Colorado)
Oregon (Arizona St, Utah)
Oregon State (Arizona, Colorado)
Oklahoma State (TCU, Houston)
Kansas (TCU, Houston)

EDIT: I could see TCU flipped with OSU to spread Texas recruiting; TCU-Houston and OSU-Kansas are not big rivalries, and 2 OSUs in the same division would be a bit much.

(08-23-2021 07:36 PM)Crayton Wrote:  

(08-22-2021 09:00 PM)Tulsa Guy Wrote:  Arizona and Arizona State certainly do not and will not give up playing SCal and UCLA. So an eastern division composed of AZ, ASU, Utah, Colorado, and 4 B12 schools is out of the question. It is being assumed that the four B12 (or TX/OK) schools would stay together but that may not be possible. And all PAC schools want to play the California schools for recruiting purposes. So maybe something like this. (I don't think PAC wants two private schools in TCU and Baylor but only one private school.)

NORTHERN DIVISION:
Stanford
California
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
Houston
TCU

SOUTHERN DIVISION:
Southern Cal
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
Texas Tech
Oklahoma State

I come back to this format too. Replace Tech with Kansas, and keep the "North" and "South" names. Maybe flip the expansion schools to keep them geographically sensible, relatively speaking.

Cross overs would be as follows (1 game against the listed 2, 1 game against the unlisted 6):
Stanford (UCLA, USC)
California (UCLA, USC)
Washington (Arizona St, Utah)
Washington State (Arizona, Colorado)
Oregon (Arizona St, Utah)
Oregon State (Arizona, Colorado)
Oklahoma State (TCU, Houston)
Kansas (TCU, Houston)

EDIT: I could see TCU flipped with OSU to spread Texas recruiting; TCU-Houston and OSU-Kansas are not big rivalries, and 2 OSUs in the same division would be a bit much.

Problem is anyone who isn't in a division with the LA schools is going to pitch a fit and fight against it. If the P12 ever goes beyond 12 then 2 division alignments will no longer be feasible.

(08-23-2021 12:37 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 11:53 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Clpp: switch BYU for Kansas and that’s good

I'm not exaggerating when I say that there would be a better chance that the SEC schools decide to stop playing football then there is of the California schools allowing BYU to join them in the Pac.

BYU's only path to the Pac involves the P12 having to rebuild after the B1G took half+ of the current membership.

What are BYU's academics like? Would ND get denied access to the PAC-12 if they were located in a western state? Genuinely curious, not defending BYU. Is ND the exception to the we want to exclude religious schools like BYU, Baylor, and TCU? (which is their preference so it is what it is)

(08-23-2021 08:25 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  Problem is anyone who isn't in a division with the LA schools is going to pitch a fit and fight against it. ...

Yes, with this one the fit-pitching starts with the Northern California schools going from one LA visit per year to one every second year.

And the "Texas access" compensation is too weak: the Texas / Texas A&M / Oklahoma / Oklahoma State seems like it might have been workable, if Texas A&M had not balked, in part because those who gave up full access to Southern California got as compensation top shelf access to the DFW, Houston, Austin, East Texas and San Antonio recruiting regions.

Having TCU and Oklahoma State in conference gives some access to the DFW recruiting region. Having Houston gives some access to the Houston region. But it's not at the same level and not spread as broadly.

(08-23-2021 07:29 PM)Crayton Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 04:23 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  I know some commentators love the pod route, but ordinary fans would hate having divisions re-arrange every year or two.

And the division race is one of the things the media partners are selling ... one reason they like Big Ten East and West is because people understand them a lot more than they understood Leaders and Legends ... but Leader and Legends were better than pods as far as division brand equity.

I mean, you hang a "Division Champion 2027" banner and need to include a QR code on the banner so people can look up which division that WAS in 2027.

Can't argue against that. Hard to market pods. My latest attempt is just to label them as 4 divisions. That division banner hanging in Eugene will say "Northwest Division Champs" regardless of year. The division race, however, may read something like "Northwest+California" and "Mountain+Central" or what-have-you.

For rivals/rotation, you'd probably do 0 permanent rivals outside each of the 4 divisions and do a 4-year rotation where 2 divisions flip-flop every other year. This is, I believe, what the WAC tried. They had permanent division names; maybe you keep "North" and "South" and switch where the California and Central teams reside everyother year?

The idea of rotating pods to have divisions like AB CD Year 1 and 3 and AC and BD Years 3 and 4 is one reason the WAC died so long ago and the Mountain West was formed. Traditional rivalries were not promised to be played depending on what pod you fell into. Unless teams scheduled each other OOC like UNC/WF have done.

What would a PAC-16 with 2 divisions look like?

Ugly. The answer is ugly.

(08-22-2021 09:00 PM)Tulsa Guy Wrote:  Suppose we are totally surprised and the PAC elects to expand by four B12 schools. What would the divisions look like? It might get highly complicated.

Arizona and Arizona State certainly do not and will not give up playing SCal and UCLA. So an eastern division composed of AZ, ASU, Utah, Colorado, and 4 B12 schools is out of the question. It is being assumed that the four B12 (or TX/OK) schools would stay together but that may not be possible. And all PAC schools want to play the California schools for recruiting purposes. So maybe something like this. (I don't think PAC wants two private schools in TCU and Baylor but only one private school.)

NORTHERN DIVISION:
Stanford
California
Washington
Washington State
Oregon
Oregon State
Houston
TCU

SOUTHERN DIVISION:
Southern Cal
UCLA
Arizona
Arizona State
Utah
Colorado
Texas Tech
Oklahoma State

Just go original pac-8 in one (coastal) division and and the other plains/mountains division

(08-24-2021 01:14 AM)superdeluxe Wrote:  Just go original pac-8 in one (coastal) division and and the other plains/mountains division

But first make sure to set the bylaws so that only 2/3 of current members to invite new members and to pass a divisional allocation for after they join. If 3/4 are needed, none of Utah, Colorado, Arizona or Arizona State vote for it.

(08-23-2021 09:41 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 12:37 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 11:53 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Clpp: switch BYU for Kansas and that’s good

I'm not exaggerating when I say that there would be a better chance that the SEC schools decide to stop playing football then there is of the California schools allowing BYU to join them in the Pac.

BYU's only path to the Pac involves the P12 having to rebuild after the B1G took half+ of the current membership.

What are BYU's academics like? Would ND get denied access to the PAC-12 if they were located in a western state? Genuinely curious, not defending BYU. Is ND the exception to the we want to exclude religious schools like BYU, Baylor, and TCU? (which is their preference so it is what it is)

It isn't the fact that they are religious based schools that would keep them from gaining the P12's interest but the fact that they are not research based institutions. Difference between Notre Dame and BYU/Baylor/TCU aside from their obvious tremendous appeal as an athletic program is that ND actually does invest in research and while they still trail significantly behind the elite P12 schools as well as the P12's middle class they are comparable to the bottom quarter of the P12

AWRU:
Oregon St: 201-300
Notre Dame, Oregon & Washington St: 301-400
BYU: 401-500
Baylor: 601-700
TCU: Not Ranked

USNWR Global rankings fwiw I don't place much emphasis on these but I know others do.
Oregon: 232
Oregon St: 237
Notre Dame: 238
Washington St: 297
Baylor: 365
BYU: 748
TCU: 1,262

Research funding, citations and publications all show Notre Dame being ahead of Oregon and comparable with Oreg St & Wash St while BYU/Baylor/TCU by extension of not being research focused are nowhere close to them.

ND is the star athlete that a university will bend their requirements to help admit to the school. They are "close enough" that they would pass any academic requirements there might be the same way the P12 was willing to take Texas Tech & Oklahoma St when it meant getting Texas along with them or the way the B1G would look the other way on their desire for schools to be an AAU member. BYU (Baylor/TCU) don't have that cache and would be given the standard thank you for your interest we will review your credentials and get back with you treatment.

This is where Baylor and TCU exit the conversation, as for BYU there are so many more issues the P12 would have with them that you could write a couple books about it.

A full merger of the Big 12 and Pac-12 would create a 20-team conference with schools in every major U.S. time zone, something no other conference has. That would make it unique and very different and potentially pretty valuable in the ever-important TV contract discussions for conferences. What could a Big 12 and Pac-12 merger look like?

It would not be hard for the Pac-12 to continue with a North and South division by just slotting in the Big 12 teams into one of those divisions.

The Pac-12 North:
Washington, Washington State, Stanford, California, Oregon and Oregon State, and add Iowa State, West Virginia, Kansas and Kansas State.

The Pac-12 South:
USC, UCLA, Arizona, Arizona State, Utah and Colorado and add Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor and Oklahoma State.

Another option in the two division model? Split the conference by West and East. The old Pac-12 could be in one division and the conference could potentially put Utah and Colorado in the other division with the eight Big 12 schools.


How about a four-division model? Would splitting a possible Big-12 and Pac-12 super-conference into four divisions work out better geographically? It could keep regional rivalries intact, too. One option in this format could be putting ASU and Arizona with the Texas schools: TCU, Baylor and Texas Tech. Kansas, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Iowa State and West Virginia could be in another division, with Utah, Colorado, UCLA, USC and either Stanford or California.The final division could pit Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State and either Stanford or California. In this situation, the conference could potentially have the four division winners face off in a 4-team mini-playoff to determine the conference champion.


Link
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/c...483646001/

That PORKS Olympic athletes!

(08-24-2021 07:24 AM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 09:41 PM)Troy_Fan_15 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 12:37 PM)clpp01 Wrote:  

(08-23-2021 11:53 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Clpp: switch BYU for Kansas and that’s good

I'm not exaggerating when I say that there would be a better chance that the SEC schools decide to stop playing football then there is of the California schools allowing BYU to join them in the Pac.

BYU's only path to the Pac involves the P12 having to rebuild after the B1G took half+ of the current membership.

What are BYU's academics like? Would ND get denied access to the PAC-12 if they were located in a western state? Genuinely curious, not defending BYU. Is ND the exception to the we want to exclude religious schools like BYU, Baylor, and TCU? (which is their preference so it is what it is)

It isn't the fact that they are religious based schools that would keep them from gaining the P12's interest but the fact that they are not research based institutions. Difference between Notre Dame and BYU/Baylor/TCU aside from their obvious tremendous appeal as an athletic program is that ND actually does invest in research and while they still trail significantly behind the elite P12 schools as well as the P12's middle class they are comparable to the bottom quarter of the P12

AWRU:
Oregon St: 201-300
Notre Dame, Oregon & Washington St: 301-400
BYU: 401-500
Baylor: 601-700
TCU: Not Ranked

USNWR Global rankings fwiw I don't place much emphasis on these but I know others do.
Oregon: 232
Oregon St: 237
Notre Dame: 238
Washington St: 297
Baylor: 365
BYU: 748
TCU: 1,262

Research funding, citations and publications all show Notre Dame being ahead of Oregon and comparable with Oreg St & Wash St while BYU/Baylor/TCU by extension of not being research focused are nowhere close to them.

ND is the star athlete that a university will bend their requirements to help admit to the school. They are "close enough" that they would pass any academic requirements there might be the same way the P12 was willing to take Texas Tech & Oklahoma St when it meant getting Texas along with them or the way the B1G would look the other way on their desire for schools to be an AAU member. BYU (Baylor/TCU) don't have that cache and would be given the standard thank you for your interest we will review your credentials and get back with you treatment.

This is where Baylor and TCU exit the conversation, as for BYU there are so many more issues the P12 would have with them that you could write a couple books about it.

What’s ironic is a conference would bend for Notre Dame while ND itself doesn’t bend for its athletes. Carson Palmer couldn’t get in but he got into USC, for example.

It seems some of you want the Pac to actually get worse.