Big 12 minus Texas and Oklahoma
ACC minus Clemson and Florida St

ACC, no question. According to this hypothetical, the ACC still has North Carolina, Notre Dame, and Virginia among others.

(08-12-2021 04:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  ACC, no question. According to this hypothetical, the ACC still has North Carolina, Notre Dame, and Virginia among others.

More B1G material schools left over.

Also more teams 12/13 compared to only 8 in the XII.

Better in what way?

Maybe a fun question for a message board, but only relevant in real life if Clemson and Florida State announce they are leaving the ACC within the next few years.

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

In football or all sports?

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

Better-looking alumni.

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

TV value ACC.
National title picture, its close. All 8 of the remainder have been in the title hunt in late November (if ISU beat OU again, they probably make the playoffs last year) in the last 15 years. Not the case for the ACC, but they do have Miami.

In basketball its close.

Better in what sense?

TV and Brand ............. ACC easily

Basketball ................. ACC barely

Football ..................... L8 clearly

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

National title picture is a landslide for the Big 12 schools. Notre Dame isn't a football member and does not count at all IMO for the ACC.

2011- OkState missed kick from the title game in 2011
2012- KSU went to late november as #1 in 2012. Only lost once.
2013- Baylor went to late november as a title threat in 2013.
2014- Baylor and TCU both had a playoff argument in 2014.
2015- Baylor, TCU, and OSU were unbeaten in early November 2015. Baylor likely makes the playoff if not for injuries to QB1.
2016 - Nobody as everyone lost 2+ times early on. That said OkSt finished ranked a spot above the ACC's contender UL.
2017- TCU made it to November ranked 6th before losing to OU. Had they won out they make the playoff.
2018- WVU was 9th prior to 11/17 loss to OkSt. Finished 16th.
2019 Baylor was one play away from making the playoff.
2020- Closest one was ISU who lost twice early. It's another year like 2016 where you don't have a clear contender but who you happen to have is still outpacing the ACC's non-FSU/Clemson highest ranked threat.

That is 7 of the past 10 years with at least 1 potential contender.

ACC minus their big 2? Not as strong despite divisional play boosting records and four more schools.

2011- Virginia Tech made it to the ACC title game as #5. Likely first one out in playoff era. First ACC12 contender
2012- UL made it to 11/10 as an unbeaten and 11/24 as a 1 loss. Possible contender #2.
2013- Miami lost 3x in November but technically counts as a weaker contender as they made it to #7 in the BCS. 3 blowout losses make this one more iffy IMO. That said then-AAC member UL went 11-1 so technically might count although they never got higher than 18th in the BCS.
2014- Nobody in the top 12 or with fewer than 3 losses.
2015- Nobody other than the Big 2 was ranked in the CFP rankings at the end.
2016 UL was one potential contender that made it to mid November.
2017- Miami was a late year contender before Pitt & Clemson ended it.
2018- 9-3 Syracuse was the next best ranking at 20th.
2019- UVA at 24th was the next highest ranked. None of the remaining ACC schools cracked the top ten of any CFP poll.
2020- Miami was 10th into November but finished 18th. UNC never got higher than 13th.

That is 5 potential contenders and multiple years with nobody even in striking distance. Also three of the worst years for the remaining 8 had them ahead of any ACC threat not named FSU or Clemson. Also you have 3 years where they aren't even close while the Big 12 has teams in contention.

The ACC has better depth than given credit for but the Big 12's remaining 8 literally had most of the decade where one game seperated teams from BCS title or playoff berths and in multiple years had multiple contenders.

Syracuse, Pitt and Louisville proved they could still compete on the recruiting front in BE 2.0 which didn't have a true power FB school. Same with VT in BE football 1.

L8 is full of programs that have massively been propped up in their association with the XII for 25 years. Go back to 1995 and review what TCU, OSU, ISU, K-State all had to offer in football.

Virginia Tech was leading the ACC ten years ago, not Clemson so the ACC can certainly survive without Clemson.

For football, ACC has the stronger history. Miami (5X), Georgia Tech, Pitt, and Syracuse have all won national championships. Va. Tech had a NCG appearance. BC and Louisville, Heisman Trophy winners.

In the remaining Big 12, only TCU has won a national title. WVU has a NCG appearance. K-State, TCU, Baylor, and Oklahoma State have been late season national title contenders in the past decadeish. I guess Iowa State has, too.

In basketball, I give the nod to the ACC easily. 6X champion UNC, 5X champion Duke, 3X champion Louisville, 2X champion NC State, 1X Virginia and Syracuse, NCG appearance by Ga. Tech.

The Big East of Miami, Va. Tech, BC, Cuse, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, and Temple were never disputed as a power conference at the time. That league, minus WVU, dumpster fire Rutgers, and then-doormat Temple (who's still not lighting the world on fire) is now the ACC, with some some strong members still in it.

Not that the ACC can afford to lose FSU or Clemson, but it wouldn't be quite as devastating as the Big12 losing Texas and OU.

(08-12-2021 05:53 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

National title picture is a landslide for the Big 12 schools. Notre Dame isn't a football member and does not count at all IMO for the ACC.

2011- OkState missed kick from the title game in 2011
2012- KSU went to late november as #1 in 2012. Only lost once.
2013- Baylor went to late november as a title threat in 2013.
2014- Baylor and TCU both had a playoff argument in 2014.
2015- Baylor, TCU, and OSU were unbeaten in early November 2015. Baylor likely makes the playoff if not for injuries to QB1.
2016 - Nobody as everyone lost 2+ times early on. That said OkSt finished ranked a spot above the ACC's contender UL.
2017- TCU made it to November ranked 6th before losing to OU. Had they won out they make the playoff.
2018- WVU was 9th prior to 11/17 loss to OkSt. Finished 16th.
2019 Baylor was one play away from making the playoff.
2020- Closest one was ISU who lost twice early. It's another year like 2016 where you don't have a clear contender but who you happen to have is still outpacing the ACC's non-FSU/Clemson highest ranked threat.

That is 7 of the past 10 years with at least 1 potential contender.

ACC minus their big 2? Not as strong despite divisional play boosting records and four more schools.

2011- Virginia Tech made it to the ACC title game as #5. Likely first one out in playoff era. First ACC12 contender
2012- UL made it to 11/10 as an unbeaten and 11/24 as a 1 loss. Possible contender #2.
2013- Miami lost 3x in November but technically counts as a weaker contender as they made it to #7 in the BCS. 3 blowout losses make this one more iffy IMO. That said then-AAC member UL went 11-1 so technically might count although they never got higher than 18th in the BCS.
2014- Nobody in the top 12 or with fewer than 3 losses.
2015- Nobody other than the Big 2 was ranked in the CFP rankings at the end.
2016 UL was one potential contender that made it to mid November.
2017- Miami was a late year contender before Pitt & Clemson ended it.
2018- 9-3 Syracuse was the next best ranking at 20th.
2019- UVA at 24th was the next highest ranked. None of the remaining ACC schools cracked the top ten of any CFP poll.
2020- Miami was 10th into November but finished 18th. UNC never got higher than 13th.

That is 5 potential contenders and multiple years with nobody even in striking distance. Also three of the worst years for the remaining 8 had them ahead of any ACC threat not named FSU or Clemson. Also you have 3 years where they aren't even close while the Big 12 has teams in contention.

The ACC has better depth than given credit for but the Big 12's remaining 8 literally had most of the decade where one game seperated teams from BCS title or playoff berths and in multiple years had multiple contenders.

The OT didn’t state football. I assumed it was the whole slate of sports.

(08-12-2021 05:55 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  For football, ACC has the stronger history. Miami (5X), Georgia Tech, Pitt, and Syracuse have all won national championships. Va. Tech had a NCG appearance. BC and Louisville, Heisman Trophy winners.

In the remaining Big 12, only TCU has won a national title. WVU has a NCG appearance. K-State, TCU, Baylor, and Oklahoma State have been late season national title contenders in the past decadeish. I guess Iowa State has, too.

Heisman winners at Baylor and OkState as well. So really the big difference is Miami.

Quote:In basketball, I give the nod to the ACC easily. 6X champion UNC, 5X champion Duke, 3X champion Louisville, 2X champion NC State, 1X Virginia and Syracuse, NCG appearance by Ga. Tech.

ACC certainly has more hoops brands. That said the Big 12 has spent the vast majority of the decade as the top RPI conference. It's no slouch competitively and arguably better recently.

Quote:The Big East of Miami, Va. Tech, BC, Cuse, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, and Temple were never disputed as a power conference at the time. That league, minus WVU, dumpster fire Rutgers, and then-doormat Temple (who's still not lighting the world on fire) is now the ACC, with some some strong members still in it.

Not that the ACC can afford to lose FSU or Clemson, but it wouldn't be quite as devastating as the Big12 losing Texas and OU.

Add Miami to that departure leaving you with 79% of your league (vs 80% of the Big 12) and it's a more even comparison.

(08-12-2021 05:58 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 05:53 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

National title picture is a landslide for the Big 12 schools. Notre Dame isn't a football member and does not count at all IMO for the ACC.

2011- OkState missed kick from the title game in 2011
2012- KSU went to late november as #1 in 2012. Only lost once.
2013- Baylor went to late november as a title threat in 2013.
2014- Baylor and TCU both had a playoff argument in 2014.
2015- Baylor, TCU, and OSU were unbeaten in early November 2015. Baylor likely makes the playoff if not for injuries to QB1.
2016 - Nobody as everyone lost 2+ times early on. That said OkSt finished ranked a spot above the ACC's contender UL.
2017- TCU made it to November ranked 6th before losing to OU. Had they won out they make the playoff.
2018- WVU was 9th prior to 11/17 loss to OkSt. Finished 16th.
2019 Baylor was one play away from making the playoff.
2020- Closest one was ISU who lost twice early. It's another year like 2016 where you don't have a clear contender but who you happen to have is still outpacing the ACC's non-FSU/Clemson highest ranked threat.

That is 7 of the past 10 years with at least 1 potential contender.

ACC minus their big 2? Not as strong despite divisional play boosting records and four more schools.

2011- Virginia Tech made it to the ACC title game as #5. Likely first one out in playoff era. First ACC12 contender
2012- UL made it to 11/10 as an unbeaten and 11/24 as a 1 loss. Possible contender #2.
2013- Miami lost 3x in November but technically counts as a weaker contender as they made it to #7 in the BCS. 3 blowout losses make this one more iffy IMO. That said then-AAC member UL went 11-1 so technically might count although they never got higher than 18th in the BCS.
2014- Nobody in the top 12 or with fewer than 3 losses.
2015- Nobody other than the Big 2 was ranked in the CFP rankings at the end.
2016 UL was one potential contender that made it to mid November.
2017- Miami was a late year contender before Pitt & Clemson ended it.
2018- 9-3 Syracuse was the next best ranking at 20th.
2019- UVA at 24th was the next highest ranked. None of the remaining ACC schools cracked the top ten of any CFP poll.
2020- Miami was 10th into November but finished 18th. UNC never got higher than 13th.

That is 5 potential contenders and multiple years with nobody even in striking distance. Also three of the worst years for the remaining 8 had them ahead of any ACC threat not named FSU or Clemson. Also you have 3 years where they aren't even close while the Big 12 has teams in contention.

The ACC has better depth than given credit for but the Big 12's remaining 8 literally had most of the decade where one game seperated teams from BCS title or playoff berths and in multiple years had multiple contenders.

The OT didn’t state football. I assumed it was the whole slate of sports.

1- Football drives realignment
2- The Big 12 has been better in RPI over the last decade in hoops. Baylor won a title, Tech almost did, and KU has been a constant threat for one.

Academics: ACC

Markets/brands: ACC

Football: Equal

Hoops: ACC — considerably

Baseball: ACC

Overall: ACC

(08-12-2021 05:53 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

National title picture is a landslide for the Big 12 schools. Notre Dame isn't a football member and does not count at all IMO for the ACC.

2011- OkState missed kick from the title game in 2011
2012- KSU went to late november as #1 in 2012. Only lost once.
2013- Baylor went to late november as a title threat in 2013.
2014- Baylor and TCU both had a playoff argument in 2014.
2015- Baylor, TCU, and OSU were unbeaten in early November 2015. Baylor likely makes the playoff if not for injuries to QB1.
2016 - Nobody as everyone lost 2+ times early on. That said OkSt finished ranked a spot above the ACC's contender UL.
2017- TCU made it to November ranked 6th before losing to OU. Had they won out they make the playoff.
2018- WVU was 9th prior to 11/17 loss to OkSt. Finished 16th.
2019 Baylor was one play away from making the playoff.
2020- Closest one was ISU who lost twice early. It's another year like 2016 where you don't have a clear contender but who you happen to have is still outpacing the ACC's non-FSU/Clemson highest ranked threat.

That is 7 of the past 10 years with at least 1 potential contender.

ACC minus their big 2? Not as strong despite divisional play boosting records and four more schools.

2011- Virginia Tech made it to the ACC title game as #5. Likely first one out in playoff era. First ACC12 contender
2012- UL made it to 11/10 as an unbeaten and 11/24 as a 1 loss. Possible contender #2.
2013- Miami lost 3x in November but technically counts as a weaker contender as they made it to #7 in the BCS. 3 blowout losses make this one more iffy IMO. That said then-AAC member UL went 11-1 so technically might count although they never got higher than 18th in the BCS.
2014- Nobody in the top 12 or with fewer than 3 losses.
2015- Nobody other than the Big 2 was ranked in the CFP rankings at the end.
2016 UL was one potential contender that made it to mid November.
2017- Miami was a late year contender before Pitt & Clemson ended it.
2018- 9-3 Syracuse was the next best ranking at 20th.
2019- UVA at 24th was the next highest ranked. None of the remaining ACC schools cracked the top ten of any CFP poll.
2020- Miami was 10th into November but finished 18th. UNC never got higher than 13th.

That is 5 potential contenders and multiple years with nobody even in striking distance. Also three of the worst years for the remaining 8 had them ahead of any ACC threat not named FSU or Clemson. Also you have 3 years where they aren't even close while the Big 12 has teams in contention.

The ACC has better depth than given credit for but the Big 12's remaining 8 literally had most of the decade where one game seperated teams from BCS title or playoff berths and in multiple years had multiple contenders.

Tech was sitting at #2 in 2008 before falling apart vs. OU on November 22 in their next to last game. Was #7 in final regular season poll.
Kansas was #2 before losing to Missouri in the last game of the season on November 24 in 2007. Finished #7.
WVU took their place at #2 but lost to Pitt on December 1 in 2007. Finished #6.

The ACC has an almost blueblood in Miami and still have strong programs like UNC and ND affiliation. Plus Pitt has a good history, along with a strong VT program.

(08-12-2021 06:02 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 05:58 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 05:53 PM)1845 Bear Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:51 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-12-2021 04:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  Better in what way?

More competitive in the national title picture and greater tv value.

National title picture is a landslide for the Big 12 schools. Notre Dame isn't a football member and does not count at all IMO for the ACC.

2011- OkState missed kick from the title game in 2011
2012- KSU went to late november as #1 in 2012. Only lost once.
2013- Baylor went to late november as a title threat in 2013.
2014- Baylor and TCU both had a playoff argument in 2014.
2015- Baylor, TCU, and OSU were unbeaten in early November 2015. Baylor likely makes the playoff if not for injuries to QB1.
2016 - Nobody as everyone lost 2+ times early on. That said OkSt finished ranked a spot above the ACC's contender UL.
2017- TCU made it to November ranked 6th before losing to OU. Had they won out they make the playoff.
2018- WVU was 9th prior to 11/17 loss to OkSt. Finished 16th.
2019 Baylor was one play away from making the playoff.
2020- Closest one was ISU who lost twice early. It's another year like 2016 where you don't have a clear contender but who you happen to have is still outpacing the ACC's non-FSU/Clemson highest ranked threat.

That is 7 of the past 10 years with at least 1 potential contender.

ACC minus their big 2? Not as strong despite divisional play boosting records and four more schools.

2011- Virginia Tech made it to the ACC title game as #5. Likely first one out in playoff era. First ACC12 contender
2012- UL made it to 11/10 as an unbeaten and 11/24 as a 1 loss. Possible contender #2.
2013- Miami lost 3x in November but technically counts as a weaker contender as they made it to #7 in the BCS. 3 blowout losses make this one more iffy IMO. That said then-AAC member UL went 11-1 so technically might count although they never got higher than 18th in the BCS.
2014- Nobody in the top 12 or with fewer than 3 losses.
2015- Nobody other than the Big 2 was ranked in the CFP rankings at the end.
2016 UL was one potential contender that made it to mid November.
2017- Miami was a late year contender before Pitt & Clemson ended it.
2018- 9-3 Syracuse was the next best ranking at 20th.
2019- UVA at 24th was the next highest ranked. None of the remaining ACC schools cracked the top ten of any CFP poll.
2020- Miami was 10th into November but finished 18th. UNC never got higher than 13th.

That is 5 potential contenders and multiple years with nobody even in striking distance. Also three of the worst years for the remaining 8 had them ahead of any ACC threat not named FSU or Clemson. Also you have 3 years where they aren't even close while the Big 12 has teams in contention.

The ACC has better depth than given credit for but the Big 12's remaining 8 literally had most of the decade where one game seperated teams from BCS title or playoff berths and in multiple years had multiple contenders.

The OT didn’t state football. I assumed it was the whole slate of sports.

1- Football drives realignment
2- The Big 12 has been better in RPI over the last decade in hoops. Baylor won a title, Tech almost did, and KU has been a constant threat for one.

I’m not sure I’d compare basketball success between the two as even close. Since the CFP era began, the ACC has 3 national titles (Duke, North Carolina, Virginia) compared to XII’s single title (Baylor).

Regardless, both will be in deep doodoo in football if Clemson and Florida St leave the ACC.