The unofficial online home for fans of the University of Cincinnati Bearcats. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(06-27-2021 07:33 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Penny Hardaway rumored to be the favorite for the Orlando Magic vacancy.

I don't get this.

Has Penny ever performed ABOVE, or even TO expectations?

It seems like he amasses a lot of exceptional talent, but never quite gets to where you would expect with the talent on the roster.

How does that set you up for a promotion?

(06-30-2021 08:26 AM)namrag Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 07:33 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Penny Hardaway rumored to be the favorite for the Orlando Magic vacancy.

I don't get this.

Has Penny ever performed ABOVE, or even TO expectations?

It seems like he amasses a lot of exceptional talent, but never quite gets to where you would expect with the talent on the roster.

How does that set you up for a promotion?

Well, he ended up announcing that he was staying at Memphis (in other words, Orlando wanted someone else)...so it sounds like your sentiment was shared with those in Central Florida. Truthfully, I don't see a whole lot of coaching acumen from Penny or his teams, it mostly looks like a lot of rolling the ball out and relying on 6'6 guys all around to court to cause havoc in straight man on defense, and offensively it is just plain street ball (as evidenced by their absolutely abysmal TO numbers and offensive efficiency numbers).

(06-30-2021 09:06 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 08:26 AM)namrag Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 07:33 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Penny Hardaway rumored to be the favorite for the Orlando Magic vacancy.

I don't get this.

Has Penny ever performed ABOVE, or even TO expectations?

It seems like he amasses a lot of exceptional talent, but never quite gets to where you would expect with the talent on the roster.

How does that set you up for a promotion?

Well, he ended up announcing that he was staying at Memphis (in other words, Orlando wanted someone else)...so it sounds like your sentiment was shared with those in Central Florida. Truthfully, I don't see a whole lot of coaching acumen from Penny or his teams, it mostly looks like a lot of rolling the ball out and relying on 6'6 guys all around to court to cause havoc in straight man on defense, and offensively it is just plain street ball (as evidenced by their absolutely abysmal TO numbers and offensive efficiency numbers).

I could not disagree with this more as to the defense. I think people really are underestimating how much good coaching goes into elite defense even when you have great athletes. Plenty of supremely talented teams struggle on that end. Penny gets great buy in on defense. They are aggressive, but don't play themselves out of position. They are quick to recover and understand their rotations in doing so. I've been incredible impressed with their defense the last couple years.

Offense has absolutely been a struggle. I think part of it is he tries to have them play too quickly with average ball handlers. It's also an area I think Memphis will benefit from a little more roster continuity.

(06-30-2021 10:12 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 09:06 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 08:26 AM)namrag Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 07:33 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Penny Hardaway rumored to be the favorite for the Orlando Magic vacancy.

I don't get this.

Has Penny ever performed ABOVE, or even TO expectations?

It seems like he amasses a lot of exceptional talent, but never quite gets to where you would expect with the talent on the roster.

How does that set you up for a promotion?

Well, he ended up announcing that he was staying at Memphis (in other words, Orlando wanted someone else)...so it sounds like your sentiment was shared with those in Central Florida. Truthfully, I don't see a whole lot of coaching acumen from Penny or his teams, it mostly looks like a lot of rolling the ball out and relying on 6'6 guys all around to court to cause havoc in straight man on defense, and offensively it is just plain street ball (as evidenced by their absolutely abysmal TO numbers and offensive efficiency numbers).

I could not disagree with this more as to the defense. I think people really are underestimating how much good coaching goes into elite defense even when you have great athletes. Plenty of supremely talented teams struggle on that end. Penny gets great buy in on defense. They are aggressive, but don't play themselves out of position. They are quick to recover and understand their rotations in doing so. I've been incredible impressed with their defense the last couple years.

Offense has absolutely been a struggle. I think part of it is he tries to have them play too quickly with average ball handlers. It's also an area I think Memphis will benefit from a little more roster continuity.

That makes sense at the college level. But does it hold true in the NBA?

I'm not an expert on this, but I get the idea that NBA coaches primarily teach offensive schemes. College coaches also teach offensive schemes, but they also teach defensive schemes (because college rules grant them more options for defensive schemes) and skills on both sides of the ball (whereas NBA players are more finished products who don't need to learn as many skills).

Somehow I just don’t think bringing in a guy who is in his 80’s who got caught cheating at about every college stop he’s made is going to get Memphis over the hump.

(06-30-2021 10:20 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I'm not an expert on this, but I get the idea that NBA coaches primarily teach offensive schemes. College coaches also teach offensive schemes, but they also teach defensive schemes (because college rules grant them more options for defensive schemes) and skills on both sides of the ball (whereas NBA players are more finished products who don't need to learn as many skills).

I don't know that this is true. NBA has gotten more flexible with the defenses they allow and the best NBA coaches do a really good job with scheme and shifting what they do depending on matchups. Watch some of the stuff Nick Nurse was doing with Toronto the prior couple years as a great example. Also those Golden State teams while known for their offense were elite defensive teams and some that was they were really smart with how they defended you (having someone like Draymond helped with that, as did an elite wing defender like Klay).

(06-30-2021 10:49 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I don't know that this is true. NBA has gotten more flexible with the defenses they allow and the best NBA coaches do a really good job with scheme and shifting what they do depending on matchups. Watch some of the stuff Nick Nurse was doing with Toronto the prior couple years as a great example. Also those Golden State teams while known for their offense were elite defensive teams and some that was they were really smart with how they defended you (having someone like Draymond helped with that, as did an elite wing defender like Klay).

Yes, arguably the key to the Golden State transition from great to legendary was how flexible Draymond was on defense and how that opened things up for everyone else. Before KD made them a super power they were already the best offensive team in the NBA with an elite defense to match. This year the Bucks have thrive primarily off of defense despite their offense looking abysmal at times.

C.B. McGrath

UC adds a special assitant? Seems to have a lot of experience and is another Roy Williams’ guy. What will be his role?

(06-30-2021 11:32 AM)Bearcatbdub Wrote:  C.B. McGrath

UC adds a special assitant? Seems to have a lot of experience and is another Roy Williams’ guy. What will be his role?

Glad this ended up coming to pass...I'm guessing that this will be more of a Dan Enos type situation where you get a year or two of cooling off before moving on, but he has a wealth of knowledge and connections from his time at UNC that is worth its weight in gold.

(06-30-2021 09:06 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 08:26 AM)namrag Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 07:33 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Penny Hardaway rumored to be the favorite for the Orlando Magic vacancy.

I don't get this.

Has Penny ever performed ABOVE, or even TO expectations?

It seems like he amasses a lot of exceptional talent, but never quite gets to where you would expect with the talent on the roster.

How does that set you up for a promotion?

Well, he ended up announcing that he was staying at Memphis (in other words, Orlando wanted someone else)...so it sounds like your sentiment was shared with those in Central Florida. Truthfully, I don't see a whole lot of coaching acumen from Penny or his teams, it mostly looks like a lot of rolling the ball out and relying on 6'6 guys all around to court to cause havoc in straight man on defense, and offensively it is just plain street ball (as evidenced by their absolutely abysmal TO numbers and offensive efficiency numbers).

Coach K could take the Memphis Job and people would just vomit up that same mindless drivel word for word. They used to say the same crap about Calipari at Memphis.

The facts are that Penny is already one of the better defensive coaches in the NCAA, the tigers have been top 5 in defensive FG % the last few years. Every coach that faces Memphis openly says Penny is already a spectacular defensive coach.

Its also a fact that Memphis has been BY FAR one of the youngest teams in the nation the last 2 years, and still won the NIT this year in impressive fashion. Its also a fact that Penny's teams play their best BB in late Feb and March which is always a good sign of strong coaching.

As far as 3rd year NCAA coaches go, there are a lot of very promising signs here.

I don't know how good he ultimately turns out to be, but anyone saying there is no sign he is a good coach is either biased, lying or just ignorant of the facts.

(06-30-2021 10:12 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 09:06 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(06-30-2021 08:26 AM)namrag Wrote:  

(06-27-2021 07:33 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  Penny Hardaway rumored to be the favorite for the Orlando Magic vacancy.

I don't get this.

Has Penny ever performed ABOVE, or even TO expectations?

It seems like he amasses a lot of exceptional talent, but never quite gets to where you would expect with the talent on the roster.

How does that set you up for a promotion?

Well, he ended up announcing that he was staying at Memphis (in other words, Orlando wanted someone else)...so it sounds like your sentiment was shared with those in Central Florida. Truthfully, I don't see a whole lot of coaching acumen from Penny or his teams, it mostly looks like a lot of rolling the ball out and relying on 6'6 guys all around to court to cause havoc in straight man on defense, and offensively it is just plain street ball (as evidenced by their absolutely abysmal TO numbers and offensive efficiency numbers).

I could not disagree with this more as to the defense. I think people really are underestimating how much good coaching goes into elite defense even when you have great athletes. Plenty of supremely talented teams struggle on that end. Penny gets great buy in on defense. They are aggressive, but don't play themselves out of position. They are quick to recover and understand their rotations in doing so. I've been incredible impressed with their defense the last couple years.

Offense has absolutely been a struggle. I think part of it is he tries to have them play too quickly with average ball handlers. It's also an area I think Memphis will benefit from a little more roster continuity.

Agreed.

I have seen a lot of coaches come through Memphis going all the way back to Dana Kirk in the early 80's and Penny is the 2nd best defensive coach I have seen, only trailing Calipari.

And Cal had 15 years experience already, Penny is a 3rd year guy.

His teams are very impressive on defense and clearly very well coached in that area. He has still not found his thing fully offensively, but they did make major changes late last year on offense that really got them going in the post season. They won the NIT in dominate fashion.

He's a young coach learning and molding his craft.

L^^^^ I think if you ask anyone on this board they'll probably remark i tend to be one of the more objective and non-partial observers here. I just don't see a whole lot of organization on either side of the floor from Memphis, and maybe that could just be a random occurence in the UC games since, much like my sentiments towards ECU, Temple, Tulsa, etc., I genuinely don't care much one way or the other about Memphis athletics outside of when they play UC. To be fair, we looked even more unorganized in our game at UC this past year, but that whole 40 minutes just seemed to be a big ugly mess on the court. Having Cisse on the back end really helps with visualizing "rotations" as having any elite rim protector would...hell, it made our defense look far better when we had a guy like Tre Scott on the back end a year ago too. Creating havoc on the court, as I stated in my initial post, is a coaching strategy...hell, it is one that Shaka Smart used to literally make himself millions of dollars and a career...I just don't tend to think that makes a great coach, especially when the other end of the ball is so glaringly atrocious. He is an incredible recruiter, which will afford him many years to develop his coaching abilities, but you can definitely see his background is in AAU ball...that's all I'm saying.

Penny could be good, I'm sure having Brown on the bench this year (just like having Sam Mitchell helped him adjust in year one) will make this team much better in short order. For the record...Cal was an incredible coach at every stop, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't get the sport or is about as biased as possible.

(06-30-2021 09:36 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  L^^^^ I think if you ask anyone on this board they'll probably remark i tend to be one of the more objective and non-partial observers here. I just don't see a whole lot of organization on either side of the floor from Memphis, and maybe that could just be a random occurence in the UC games since, much like my sentiments towards ECU, Temple, Tulsa, etc., I genuinely don't care much one way or the other about Memphis athletics outside of when they play UC. To be fair, we looked even more unorganized in our game at UC this past year, but that whole 40 minutes just seemed to be a big ugly mess on the court. Having Cisse on the back end really helps with visualizing "rotations" as having any elite rim protector would...hell, it made our defense look far better when we had a guy like Tre Scott on the back end a year ago too. Creating havoc on the court, as I stated in my initial post, is a coaching strategy...hell, it is one that Shaka Smart used to literally make himself millions of dollars and a career...I just don't tend to think that makes a great coach, especially when the other end of the ball is so glaringly atrocious. He is an incredible recruiter, which will afford him many years to develop his coaching abilities, but you can definitely see his background is in AAU ball...that's all I'm saying.

Penny could be good, I'm sure having Brown on the bench this year (just like having Sam Mitchell helped him adjust in year one) will make this team much better in short order. For the record...Cal was an incredible coach at every stop, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't get the sport or is about as biased as possible.

I doubt you could find a single coach that played Memphis last year that said they were not incredibly organized on defense. That is one of the first things the opposing coaches always say, they are a superior defensive team and don't make many mistakes on that end. The Houston players and coaches said we had the 2nd best defense they faced all year until Baylor in the F4. Kelvin Sampson in particular raved about how impressed he was with Penny's defensive strategy and coaching.

However when you are of the the 10 youngest teams in the country its going to be up and down a lot in some areas. Offensively his teams have been a mess, he has not had a true PG and no SR leaders on the floor at all to calm the young players down.

He got a lot of heat in Memphis for the sloppy offense, but he also got high praise for suffocating defense.

Something happened late last year where Penny made major offense changes, the team really responded on the floor. It was a stretch of the most organized and efficient offensive of Hardaways college coaching career.

Good coaches make good adjustments and he sure seemed to make the right adjustments last year. Fans in Memphis are curious to see if it carries over on offense. He had a pretty big roster turnover after the season.

I don't think much of lil' Penny as a coach.

I think he's connected with a bunch of shady characters recruiting-wise and they get him good players.

... and yet he still hasn't made the the tournament.

(07-01-2021 06:55 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I don't think much of lil' Penny as a coach.

I think he's connected with a bunch of shady characters recruiting-wise and they get him good players.

... and yet he still hasn't made the the tournament.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a bearcat fan on a bearcat board.

It won't be this year but Penny will be an NBA head coach in a few years.

(07-01-2021 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 06:55 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I don't think much of lil' Penny as a coach.

I think he's connected with a bunch of shady characters recruiting-wise and they get him good players.

... and yet he still hasn't made the the tournament.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a bearcat fan on a bearcat board.

It won't be this year but Penny will be an NBA head coach in a few years.

But will he ever get Memphis to the Big Dance?

Shouldn’t that be more important to Memphis fans than Penny moving to the NBA at some point?

(07-01-2021 09:21 PM)namrag Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 06:55 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I don't think much of lil' Penny as a coach.

I think he's connected with a bunch of shady characters recruiting-wise and they get him good players.

... and yet he still hasn't made the the tournament.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a bearcat fan on a bearcat board.

It won't be this year but Penny will be an NBA head coach in a few years.

But will he ever get Memphis to the Big Dance?

Shouldn’t that be more important to Memphis fans than Penny moving to the NBA at some point?

Literally NO ONE said that but you.

(07-01-2021 09:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 09:21 PM)namrag Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 06:55 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I don't think much of lil' Penny as a coach.

I think he's connected with a bunch of shady characters recruiting-wise and they get him good players.

... and yet he still hasn't made the the tournament.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a bearcat fan on a bearcat board.

It won't be this year but Penny will be an NBA head coach in a few years.

But will he ever get Memphis to the Big Dance?

Shouldn’t that be more important to Memphis fans than Penny moving to the NBA at some point?

Literally NO ONE said that but you.

Your reply to Bear Catlett who said he didn’t think much of Penny as a coach, and that he still hasn’t made it to the tournament, was to say that Penny will be an NBA coach in a few years.

Since you made no mention of making the tourney, and only mentioned him moving on to the NBA, it seems like that is your measuring stick.

I really don’t care either way.

I did appreciate the Memphis hospitality when my father and I were at the Pyramid for the GMWC tourney, and watched the Bearcats take the win and the title over penny and Memphis State.

Did Penny ever beat the Bearcats as a player?

(07-01-2021 09:37 PM)namrag Wrote:  Your reply to Bear Catlett who said he didn’t think much of Penny as a coach, and that he still hasn’t made it to the tournament, was to say that Penny will be an NBA coach in a few years.

Since you made no mention of making the tourney, and only mentioned him moving on to the NBA, it seems like that is your measuring stick.

I really don’t care either way.

I did appreciate the Memphis hospitality when my father and I were at the Pyramid for the GMWC tourney, and watched the Bearcats take the win and the title over penny and Memphis State.

Did Penny ever beat the Bearcats as a player?

That was great. The only conference tournament I have ever been to. Had great times bumming beers off old alumni in the hotel, and watching the young rich alumni lure Memphis women into their bar with free food and drink.

(07-01-2021 09:37 PM)namrag Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 09:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 09:21 PM)namrag Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 03:47 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(07-01-2021 06:55 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  I don't think much of lil' Penny as a coach.

I think he's connected with a bunch of shady characters recruiting-wise and they get him good players.

... and yet he still hasn't made the the tournament.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a bearcat fan on a bearcat board.

It won't be this year but Penny will be an NBA head coach in a few years.

But will he ever get Memphis to the Big Dance?

Shouldn’t that be more important to Memphis fans than Penny moving to the NBA at some point?

Literally NO ONE said that but you.

Your reply to Bear Catlett who said he didn’t think much of Penny as a coach, and that he still hasn’t made it to the tournament, was to say that Penny will be an NBA coach in a few years.

Since you made no mention of making the tourney, and only mentioned him moving on to the NBA, it seems like that is your measuring stick.

Oh please you CLEARLY do care, you are blatantly putting words in my mouth and bringing up total irrelevant games from 30 years ago. lol

I never said it was a measuring stick, nor did I say that was more important than him making the tournament. You are literally the only one who said those things.

I made the statement that he will be an NBA head coach in the future. As of today most unbiased opinions would agree. That could change, time will tell. What I did say (as opposed to what I didn't) was there are some really positive signs he is a good coach for just a 3rd year guy and that he is a young coach learning his craft, but I don't know how good he will become as a college coach. Memphis was one of the last teams out the last 2 years and won the NIT in dominate fashion this year, so it would seem unlikely he will not have them in the tourney sooner than later.