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emu steve Online
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Post: #21
RE: Cheating in CFB
Jerry you make a lot of very good points. There are a lot of very good points across the board here.

One here which I think really needs to be looked at is if a player sustains a really bad injury (e.g., spinal) would is going to provide for him for his life time. In the NFL Daryl Stingley had access to NFL resources.

The player doesn't qualify for Social Security disability, workmen's comp, etc. Our friend DP is right. Like they say, "By the grace of God" we haven't had a catastrophic injury which left a player unable to make a living.
05-25-2021 07:17 PM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-25-2021 06:21 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  I don't think that there is an unintelligent post on this thread other than the usual brainless contribution from our resident "board idiot".

The NCAA is in a huge transformational period, I am in fact fascinated to see what it looks like five years from now. Will the expense of compensating players force many D1 programs to simply become D2 and thus limit the amount of scholarships available to prospective high school athletes? Will the new mobility rules actually rejuvenate the opportunities that young athletes have to find their "correct level" where they can flourish in sport while obtaining a college degree?

One thing I know for sure. The quality of NCAA basketball certainly declined when compared to the NBA in the past 20 years or so, thanks to the NBA's acceptance of non-graduate players. The number one overall NBA pick is no longer a senior as it was in the past. That decline in quality, however, has not diminished the interest in NCAA basketball. Have no fear, if Emoni Bates never plays a minute in college like Lebron James, the NCAA will be just fine. College basketball nerd fans like us will accept rosters like we have now, no Boykins, Long, Neely, Tolbert, etc... as long as the competition is equally deficient. We nerds just plain root for our University, thus the continued feverous interest despite a stripped down product.

Here is what distresses me. The NBA vs the NFL. The NBA allows a far great movement of players, Championship teams are being assembled by players, they presented a compelling product during the pandemic and yet their ratings are absolutely tanking. The NFL, by contrast, is minting money while being far more restrictive of player movement. If you are not in a warm weather coast state amenable to players in the NBA you have little hope of competing, but the NFL has serious teams in less than glamorous spots like Green Bay, Kansas City, Indianapolis and Buffalo. Will the NCAA's allowance of increased transfers mirror the failure of the NBA?

I will use Steve's reference to auto workers, the UAW did truly great things for auto workers. At some point, however, those demands became too great, spawned offshore competition and now those competitors laugh at the prospect of locating a manufacturing plant anywhere near their sphere of influence. Beware college athletes, sometimes too much is indeed "too much" and you kill the golden goose.

So I think the major difference between the NBA and NFL in terms of player rights is that the NBA has a union that can actually affect positive change for its members and the NFL union is the weakest of the big 4 in sports. demaurice smith is awful.

as for ratings - regular season ratings are down in the NBA (a little) but playoff ratings are up (a little). the player movement / consolidation of talent seems to help in that way. basketball is different because there are a few dozen players in the NBA that are 'worth the price of admission' compared to the NFL where there might be a couple?

as for market concerns - you mentioned to cities that have both NBA and NFL teams (indianapolis and green bay / milwaukee). parity in the NFL is driven by the hard cap - something the NBA doesnt have. also the pats' and now the bucs' success is directly connected to their ability to sign ring chasing vets for below market value - so the NFL isnt the paragon of player stability that you make it out to be.

we're in for a weird few years - but every time college sports has changed it didnt ruin anything. integration didnt ruin anything. title IX didnt ruin anything. letting freshman play didnt ruin anything. giving players more rights wont ruin anything.
05-26-2021 06:42 AM
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emu steve Online
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Post: #23
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-25-2021 07:17 PM)emu steve Wrote:  Jerry you make a lot of very good points. There are a lot of very good points across the board here.

One here which I think really needs to be looked at is if a player sustains a really bad injury (e.g., spinal) would is going to provide for him for his life time. In the NFL Daryl Stingley had access to NFL resources.

The player doesn't qualify for Social Security disability, workmen's comp, etc. Our friend DP is right. Like they say, "By the grace of God" we haven't had a catastrophic injury which left a player unable to make a living.

I'm replying to myself. 04-chairshot 04-chairshot

One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

We can talk about zone vs. man to man defenses, etc. etc. fine. we can watch a game and know what we saw. Fine. There are posters here who are very knowledgeable.

The commercial side of athletics is less well known... (kind of the 'back office' function of any business.

IF anyone is seriously interested in these questions, I know a parent of a recent ACC player. I can ask, "What was his insurance like?" "Did he have other health or long term disability insurance?"
05-26-2021 06:49 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 06:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 07:17 PM)emu steve Wrote:  Jerry you make a lot of very good points. There are a lot of very good points across the board here.

One here which I think really needs to be looked at is if a player sustains a really bad injury (e.g., spinal) would is going to provide for him for his life time. In the NFL Daryl Stingley had access to NFL resources.

The player doesn't qualify for Social Security disability, workmen's comp, etc. Our friend DP is right. Like they say, "By the grace of God" we haven't had a catastrophic injury which left a player unable to make a living.

I'm replying to myself. 04-chairshot 04-chairshot

One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

We can talk about zone vs. man to man defenses, etc. etc. fine. we can watch a game and know what we saw. Fine. There are posters here who are very knowledgeable.

The commercial side of athletics is less well known... (kind of the 'back office' function of any business.

IF anyone is seriously interested in these questions, I know a parent of a recent ACC player. I can ask, "What was his insurance like?" "Did he have other health or long term disability insurance?"

i would be curious to know more about that information - including long term medical effects of playing college football.

to circle back to the article that initiated the thread - i think one of the big changes youre going to see is that coaches are going to have to work harder to retain players by creating environments that make them want to stay. think about how in corporate america retention is one of the most important measures of a manager.
05-26-2021 08:20 AM
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emu steve Online
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Post: #25
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 08:20 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 06:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 07:17 PM)emu steve Wrote:  Jerry you make a lot of very good points. There are a lot of very good points across the board here.

One here which I think really needs to be looked at is if a player sustains a really bad injury (e.g., spinal) would is going to provide for him for his life time. In the NFL Daryl Stingley had access to NFL resources.

The player doesn't qualify for Social Security disability, workmen's comp, etc. Our friend DP is right. Like they say, "By the grace of God" we haven't had a catastrophic injury which left a player unable to make a living.

I'm replying to myself. 04-chairshot 04-chairshot

One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

We can talk about zone vs. man to man defenses, etc. etc. fine. we can watch a game and know what we saw. Fine. There are posters here who are very knowledgeable.

The commercial side of athletics is less well known... (kind of the 'back office' function of any business.

IF anyone is seriously interested in these questions, I know a parent of a recent ACC player. I can ask, "What was his insurance like?" "Did he have other health or long term disability insurance?"

i would be curious to know more about that information - including long term medical effects of playing college football.

to circle back to the article that initiated the thread - i think one of the big changes youre going to see is that coaches are going to have to work harder to retain players by creating environments that make them want to stay. think about how in corporate america retention is one of the most important measures of a manager.

To circle back to one of your points: Bonus 03-lmfao Give college players bonuses ala pros???? 05-nono

Let them work(out) from home. 05-nono
05-26-2021 08:49 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 08:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 08:20 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 06:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 07:17 PM)emu steve Wrote:  Jerry you make a lot of very good points. There are a lot of very good points across the board here.

One here which I think really needs to be looked at is if a player sustains a really bad injury (e.g., spinal) would is going to provide for him for his life time. In the NFL Daryl Stingley had access to NFL resources.

The player doesn't qualify for Social Security disability, workmen's comp, etc. Our friend DP is right. Like they say, "By the grace of God" we haven't had a catastrophic injury which left a player unable to make a living.

I'm replying to myself. 04-chairshot 04-chairshot

One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

We can talk about zone vs. man to man defenses, etc. etc. fine. we can watch a game and know what we saw. Fine. There are posters here who are very knowledgeable.

The commercial side of athletics is less well known... (kind of the 'back office' function of any business.

IF anyone is seriously interested in these questions, I know a parent of a recent ACC player. I can ask, "What was his insurance like?" "Did he have other health or long term disability insurance?"

i would be curious to know more about that information - including long term medical effects of playing college football.

to circle back to the article that initiated the thread - i think one of the big changes youre going to see is that coaches are going to have to work harder to retain players by creating environments that make them want to stay. think about how in corporate america retention is one of the most important measures of a manager.

To circle back to one of your points: Bonus 03-lmfao Give college players bonuses ala pros???? 05-nono

Let them work(out) from home. 05-nono

so lets say players get NIL rights. if i was a coach i would want to work with the university to help my players maximize the amount they could get from those rights. assistance with marketing or networking or whatever. i think coaches will actually have to follow through with promises of early playing time instead of welching on it. i think more abstractly coaches will have to create cultures that players what to be part of (something CC seems to be good at according to all reports)
05-26-2021 09:04 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 06:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

I am not sure what, if anything, the NCAA has in place for catastrophic injuries. And I don't know if standard health coverage depends on the school and what it sets up independently. I do know that I have to provide the football program with the insurance information I have that covers Alex. If something significant happens, it's my understanding that my insurance would be the primary, with EMU's coverage as secondary. If I didn't have coverage for Alex, EMU's policy would cover him, but that might just be for football-related injuries.

I do know I have never received a bill for any of the direct services the athletic trainers provide, nor any of the imaging services or other services Alex has needed while at EMU.
05-26-2021 10:34 AM
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emu steve Online
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Post: #28
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 10:34 AM)cidbearit Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 06:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

I am not sure what, if anything, the NCAA has in place for catastrophic injuries. And I don't know if standard health coverage depends on the school and what it sets up independently. I do know that I have to provide the football program with the insurance information I have that covers Alex. If something significant happens, it's my understanding that my insurance would be the primary, with EMU's coverage as secondary. If I didn't have coverage for Alex, EMU's policy would cover him, but that might just be for football-related injuries.

I do know I have never received a bill for any of the direct services the athletic trainers provide, nor any of the imaging services or other services Alex has needed while at EMU.

Thanks. That is what I would expect, namely, that EMU maintains a 'blanket' policy for athletes which coordinates with any private insurance the athlete's family may have.

When we speak of the costs of running an athletic department that has to be significant.

Would a health insurer cover a football player for say a 5K annual premium? Heck no.
05-26-2021 10:53 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 10:53 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 10:34 AM)cidbearit Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 06:49 AM)emu steve Wrote:  One of the things about topics such as these, unless one is a parent or player or have experience with inter-collegiate sports, we probably don't have good info on what kind of health insurance and say other catastrophic insurance policies schools/NCAA may have.

I am not sure what, if anything, the NCAA has in place for catastrophic injuries. And I don't know if standard health coverage depends on the school and what it sets up independently. I do know that I have to provide the football program with the insurance information I have that covers Alex. If something significant happens, it's my understanding that my insurance would be the primary, with EMU's coverage as secondary. If I didn't have coverage for Alex, EMU's policy would cover him, but that might just be for football-related injuries.

I do know I have never received a bill for any of the direct services the athletic trainers provide, nor any of the imaging services or other services Alex has needed while at EMU.

Thanks. That is what I would expect, namely, that EMU maintains a 'blanket' policy for athletes which coordinates with any private insurance the athlete's family may have.

When we speak of the costs of running an athletic department that has to be significant.

Would a health insurer cover a football player for say a 5K annual premium? Heck no.

thank you cid

So there are 9500ish div 1 A players. under my plan the NCAA and not the schools would cover the insurance for those players. thats some good buying power. also think about how many geico ads we see during any college football game. maybe the ncaa could work out a sponsorship deal or something i dont know they could be creative. that sort of thing would help the schools though for sure.
05-26-2021 11:16 AM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 06:42 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 06:21 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  I don't think that there is an unintelligent post on this thread other than the usual brainless contribution from our resident "board idiot".

The NCAA is in a huge transformational period, I am in fact fascinated to see what it looks like five years from now. Will the expense of compensating players force many D1 programs to simply become D2 and thus limit the amount of scholarships available to prospective high school athletes? Will the new mobility rules actually rejuvenate the opportunities that young athletes have to find their "correct level" where they can flourish in sport while obtaining a college degree?

One thing I know for sure. The quality of NCAA basketball certainly declined when compared to the NBA in the past 20 years or so, thanks to the NBA's acceptance of non-graduate players. The number one overall NBA pick is no longer a senior as it was in the past. That decline in quality, however, has not diminished the interest in NCAA basketball. Have no fear, if Emoni Bates never plays a minute in college like Lebron James, the NCAA will be just fine. College basketball nerd fans like us will accept rosters like we have now, no Boykins, Long, Neely, Tolbert, etc... as long as the competition is equally deficient. We nerds just plain root for our University, thus the continued feverous interest despite a stripped down product.

Here is what distresses me. The NBA vs the NFL. The NBA allows a far great movement of players, Championship teams are being assembled by players, they presented a compelling product during the pandemic and yet their ratings are absolutely tanking. The NFL, by contrast, is minting money while being far more restrictive of player movement. If you are not in a warm weather coast state amenable to players in the NBA you have little hope of competing, but the NFL has serious teams in less than glamorous spots like Green Bay, Kansas City, Indianapolis and Buffalo. Will the NCAA's allowance of increased transfers mirror the failure of the NBA?

I will use Steve's reference to auto workers, the UAW did truly great things for auto workers. At some point, however, those demands became too great, spawned offshore competition and now those competitors laugh at the prospect of locating a manufacturing plant anywhere near their sphere of influence. Beware college athletes, sometimes too much is indeed "too much" and you kill the golden goose.

So I think the major difference between the NBA and NFL in terms of player rights is that the NBA has a union that can actually affect positive change for its members and the NFL union is the weakest of the big 4 in sports. demaurice smith is awful.

as for ratings - regular season ratings are down in the NBA (a little) but playoff ratings are up (a little). the player movement / consolidation of talent seems to help in that way. basketball is different because there are a few dozen players in the NBA that are 'worth the price of admission' compared to the NFL where there might be a couple?

as for market concerns - you mentioned to cities that have both NBA and NFL teams (indianapolis and green bay / milwaukee). parity in the NFL is driven by the hard cap - something the NBA doesnt have. also the pats' and now the bucs' success is directly connected to their ability to sign ring chasing vets for below market value - so the NFL isnt the paragon of player stability that you make it out to be.

we're in for a weird few years - but every time college sports has changed it didnt ruin anything. integration didnt ruin anything. title IX didnt ruin anything. letting freshman play didnt ruin anything. giving players more rights wont ruin anything.

Dan you make excellent points! Your historical reference to effects of NCAA changes is indeed spot on. For that matter perhaps the transfer portal will engage sports fans year round much like the NFL draft and schedule announcements have done for their sport. You may indeed be right about this and I hope you are.

Perhaps I'm just an old guy stuck in the past that loves Senior nights that honor four year players, pros that spend their careers in less glamorous cities and think that competitive imbalance will kill a sport. I know that since the NBA has allowed players to assemble "star" teams in Oakland, Los Angeles and now Brooklyn, my interest in the association has gone at best, tepid.

Then again, as pious as I may sound to player loyalty and roster stability. I sure as hell rooted hard for Marcus Kennedy and EMU in 1991!
05-26-2021 05:12 PM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-26-2021 05:12 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 06:42 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 06:21 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  I don't think that there is an unintelligent post on this thread other than the usual brainless contribution from our resident "board idiot".

The NCAA is in a huge transformational period, I am in fact fascinated to see what it looks like five years from now. Will the expense of compensating players force many D1 programs to simply become D2 and thus limit the amount of scholarships available to prospective high school athletes? Will the new mobility rules actually rejuvenate the opportunities that young athletes have to find their "correct level" where they can flourish in sport while obtaining a college degree?

One thing I know for sure. The quality of NCAA basketball certainly declined when compared to the NBA in the past 20 years or so, thanks to the NBA's acceptance of non-graduate players. The number one overall NBA pick is no longer a senior as it was in the past. That decline in quality, however, has not diminished the interest in NCAA basketball. Have no fear, if Emoni Bates never plays a minute in college like Lebron James, the NCAA will be just fine. College basketball nerd fans like us will accept rosters like we have now, no Boykins, Long, Neely, Tolbert, etc... as long as the competition is equally deficient. We nerds just plain root for our University, thus the continued feverous interest despite a stripped down product.

Here is what distresses me. The NBA vs the NFL. The NBA allows a far great movement of players, Championship teams are being assembled by players, they presented a compelling product during the pandemic and yet their ratings are absolutely tanking. The NFL, by contrast, is minting money while being far more restrictive of player movement. If you are not in a warm weather coast state amenable to players in the NBA you have little hope of competing, but the NFL has serious teams in less than glamorous spots like Green Bay, Kansas City, Indianapolis and Buffalo. Will the NCAA's allowance of increased transfers mirror the failure of the NBA?

I will use Steve's reference to auto workers, the UAW did truly great things for auto workers. At some point, however, those demands became too great, spawned offshore competition and now those competitors laugh at the prospect of locating a manufacturing plant anywhere near their sphere of influence. Beware college athletes, sometimes too much is indeed "too much" and you kill the golden goose.

So I think the major difference between the NBA and NFL in terms of player rights is that the NBA has a union that can actually affect positive change for its members and the NFL union is the weakest of the big 4 in sports. demaurice smith is awful.

as for ratings - regular season ratings are down in the NBA (a little) but playoff ratings are up (a little). the player movement / consolidation of talent seems to help in that way. basketball is different because there are a few dozen players in the NBA that are 'worth the price of admission' compared to the NFL where there might be a couple?

as for market concerns - you mentioned to cities that have both NBA and NFL teams (indianapolis and green bay / milwaukee). parity in the NFL is driven by the hard cap - something the NBA doesnt have. also the pats' and now the bucs' success is directly connected to their ability to sign ring chasing vets for below market value - so the NFL isnt the paragon of player stability that you make it out to be.

we're in for a weird few years - but every time college sports has changed it didnt ruin anything. integration didnt ruin anything. title IX didnt ruin anything. letting freshman play didnt ruin anything. giving players more rights wont ruin anything.

Dan you make excellent points! Your historical reference to effects of NCAA changes is indeed spot on. For that matter perhaps the transfer portal will engage sports fans year round much like the NFL draft and schedule announcements have done for their sport. You may indeed be right about this and I hope you are.

Perhaps I'm just an old guy stuck in the past that loves Senior nights that honor four year players, pros that spend their careers in less glamorous cities and think that competitive imbalance will kill a sport. I know that since the NBA has allowed players to assemble "star" teams in Oakland, Los Angeles and now Brooklyn, my interest in the association has gone at best, tepid.

Then again, as pious as I may sound to player loyalty and roster stability. I sure as hell rooted hard for Marcus Kennedy and EMU in 1991!

yeah i mean college players have been forming 'super teams' for years too. look at the fab 5 at michigan. those guys knew each other and convinced each other to play in ann arbor. look how many players come from the same high schools to play for the same college teams. shoot EMU has had a few sets of brothers over the past few years (evans, buschman).

i promise you that if jawon hamilton rips off a big run for a touch down not one person on this board will care that we're his third school in 5 years. ditto goes for any of the transfers heath is bringing into the basketball program.
05-27-2021 06:14 AM
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Post: #32
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-27-2021 06:14 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 05:12 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  
(05-26-2021 06:42 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 06:21 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  I don't think that there is an unintelligent post on this thread other than the usual brainless contribution from our resident "board idiot".

The NCAA is in a huge transformational period, I am in fact fascinated to see what it looks like five years from now. Will the expense of compensating players force many D1 programs to simply become D2 and thus limit the amount of scholarships available to prospective high school athletes? Will the new mobility rules actually rejuvenate the opportunities that young athletes have to find their "correct level" where they can flourish in sport while obtaining a college degree?

One thing I know for sure. The quality of NCAA basketball certainly declined when compared to the NBA in the past 20 years or so, thanks to the NBA's acceptance of non-graduate players. The number one overall NBA pick is no longer a senior as it was in the past. That decline in quality, however, has not diminished the interest in NCAA basketball. Have no fear, if Emoni Bates never plays a minute in college like Lebron James, the NCAA will be just fine. College basketball nerd fans like us will accept rosters like we have now, no Boykins, Long, Neely, Tolbert, etc... as long as the competition is equally deficient. We nerds just plain root for our University, thus the continued feverous interest despite a stripped down product.

Here is what distresses me. The NBA vs the NFL. The NBA allows a far great movement of players, Championship teams are being assembled by players, they presented a compelling product during the pandemic and yet their ratings are absolutely tanking. The NFL, by contrast, is minting money while being far more restrictive of player movement. If you are not in a warm weather coast state amenable to players in the NBA you have little hope of competing, but the NFL has serious teams in less than glamorous spots like Green Bay, Kansas City, Indianapolis and Buffalo. Will the NCAA's allowance of increased transfers mirror the failure of the NBA?

I will use Steve's reference to auto workers, the UAW did truly great things for auto workers. At some point, however, those demands became too great, spawned offshore competition and now those competitors laugh at the prospect of locating a manufacturing plant anywhere near their sphere of influence. Beware college athletes, sometimes too much is indeed "too much" and you kill the golden goose.

So I think the major difference between the NBA and NFL in terms of player rights is that the NBA has a union that can actually affect positive change for its members and the NFL union is the weakest of the big 4 in sports. demaurice smith is awful.

as for ratings - regular season ratings are down in the NBA (a little) but playoff ratings are up (a little). the player movement / consolidation of talent seems to help in that way. basketball is different because there are a few dozen players in the NBA that are 'worth the price of admission' compared to the NFL where there might be a couple?

as for market concerns - you mentioned to cities that have both NBA and NFL teams (indianapolis and green bay / milwaukee). parity in the NFL is driven by the hard cap - something the NBA doesnt have. also the pats' and now the bucs' success is directly connected to their ability to sign ring chasing vets for below market value - so the NFL isnt the paragon of player stability that you make it out to be.

we're in for a weird few years - but every time college sports has changed it didnt ruin anything. integration didnt ruin anything. title IX didnt ruin anything. letting freshman play didnt ruin anything. giving players more rights wont ruin anything.

Dan you make excellent points! Your historical reference to effects of NCAA changes is indeed spot on. For that matter perhaps the transfer portal will engage sports fans year round much like the NFL draft and schedule announcements have done for their sport. You may indeed be right about this and I hope you are.

Perhaps I'm just an old guy stuck in the past that loves Senior nights that honor four year players, pros that spend their careers in less glamorous cities and think that competitive imbalance will kill a sport. I know that since the NBA has allowed players to assemble "star" teams in Oakland, Los Angeles and now Brooklyn, my interest in the association has gone at best, tepid.

Then again, as pious as I may sound to player loyalty and roster stability. I sure as hell rooted hard for Marcus Kennedy and EMU in 1991!

yeah i mean college players have been forming 'super teams' for years too. look at the fab 5 at michigan. those guys knew each other and convinced each other to play in ann arbor. look how many players come from the same high schools to play for the same college teams. shoot EMU has had a few sets of brothers over the past few years (evans, buschman).

i promise you that if jawon hamilton rips off a big run for a touch down not one person on this board will care that we're his third school in 5 years. ditto goes for any of the transfers heath is bringing into the basketball program.

I think the Fab 5 are more the exception than the rule. "Recruit the school" is more legend than reality.

Now brothers are different. Highly recommend that schools recruit brothers if they fit the team.
05-27-2021 06:49 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Cheating in CFB
'Congressional bill introduced would allow college athletes to form unions, become employees'

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...-employees

I love everything about this law besides classifying conferences as separate bargaining units.
05-28-2021 06:07 AM
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Bob Wickersham Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-25-2021 02:37 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:20 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:02 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 10:17 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 09:56 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  Right but the main difference between coach's buy outs and worker's non-compete clauses is that coaches have the right to negotiate those buys outs (and have guaranteed contracts if they get fired) and employees in other industries don't work in monopolies (college football is the very definition of a functional monopoly).

Players don't have guaranteed contracts (if they get cut they don't get the rest of their education paid for) or the ability to take a job in the same industry at a different employer (there are no other developmental gridiron football leagues). This creates a restrictive environment unique in the American economy.

I'm not sure about your last paragraph.

In the state of Michigan, a top player can chose UofM and if he can't make it there he can transfer to one of our MAC schools. If he can't make it there, he can transfer to the GLIAC.

A student-athlete at UofM and EMU get functionally the same package. Full ride scholarship, COA, and all the food that 300 lb. linemen can eat at the training table... 02-13-banana

I would argue that this should make a labor leader HAPPY. It is like working at a Ford Rouge plant. Everyone doing the same job gets the same pay (used to be that way. After 90 days an employee 'was in the union' and got the same pay as others.). I worked a bit out of h.s. to pay my way through college without $ from parents).

One point from our PREVIOUS discussion.

A FB player is a student-athlete. He does not teach which is the mission of a college.

A Ph.D. student at UofM teaching undergrad X is an employee (teaching is an occupation normally found in colleges and universities). The grad student TA is kind of a junior teacher. Should have a master's degree and working on a PhD.

I believe teaching assistants must pay taxes on their TA stipends. It is considered employment. A FB studying PE is not considered an employee of the school. He doesn't teach football theory and practice to h.s. or jr. h.s. coaches. Matter of fact, I believe a master's degree is required to teach at most universities.

I thought of this recently. A few weeks ago I had a local U. professor over for lunch and he was talking about his TAs and what it involved during the pandemic (this school was almost entirely remote, except for those involving labs, practicums. etc.). He has 16 TAs and they teach an intro, required course at the U.

This is an interesting approach to the issue at hand - but i dont think that everyone doing the same job is getting the same pay. for example - a scholarship to Northwestern has more value (dollars wise) than a scholarship to EMU. strictly speaking - the punters for both of these schools are doing the same job for different pay.

If i was representing the players in a collective bargaining sessions i would argue for the following package for players:
2 transfers during their eligibility
all players in NCAA get equal pay ON TOP of scholarships (based on previous seasons revenues)
players are eligible for bonuses for post season accomplishment
players get unlimited earning for NIL rights
scholarships / contracts are guaranteed and in 2 or 3 year increments (to be decided between coach and player)

as for players not being teachers - neither is the guy who runs the bookstore. athletes still represent and generate income for the member institutions of the NCAA.

The value of an education is a complete can of worms.

Is an Alabama education equal to Cal Tech? Harvard? UofM? If I were a STEM athlete, I'd say Cal Tech, Harvard and UofM over AL. If I wanted to be a NFL player, I'd take AL.

P.S. what you are proposing is professionalizing college sports by giving them bonuses. Bonuses are paid for exemplary work.

P.S. II: The guy who runs the book store is an employee and has to pay taxes on income. We don't want student-athletes being classified as employees and end up paying taxes (which they can't afford as they aren't paid cash wages).

I maintain that you would create the biggest can of worms which would harm collegiate athletics.

P.S. III: (bonus) I believe the reason teaching assistants can try to organize is that they are considered employees. Employees have an inherent right to organize.

1.) Yup. I think college players should be paid. Welcome to the board.

2.) Yes - under my system players income would be taxable and would be paid cash wages. They would also be given full medical benefits and even a 401k. They would also be eligible for workman's comp and disability.

3.) Players should be classified as employees so they have the right to organize.
Please stop with this pseudo hippie nonsense. Universities are already losing their asses, mid majors would just shut down their programs. You'd have club flag football. Give players the choice of free education or cash wages. Debate over. It never was a debate, Bernie Sanders. Buh-bye.
05-28-2021 06:17 AM
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Bob Wickersham Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Cheating in CFB
P.S can you imagine the tuition hike for the "real students?" Think enrollment might take a slight dip? Just RIDICULOUS.
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2021 06:21 AM by Bob Wickersham.)
05-28-2021 06:20 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-28-2021 06:17 AM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 02:37 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:20 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:02 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 10:17 AM)emu steve Wrote:  I'm not sure about your last paragraph.

In the state of Michigan, a top player can chose UofM and if he can't make it there he can transfer to one of our MAC schools. If he can't make it there, he can transfer to the GLIAC.

A student-athlete at UofM and EMU get functionally the same package. Full ride scholarship, COA, and all the food that 300 lb. linemen can eat at the training table... 02-13-banana

I would argue that this should make a labor leader HAPPY. It is like working at a Ford Rouge plant. Everyone doing the same job gets the same pay (used to be that way. After 90 days an employee 'was in the union' and got the same pay as others.). I worked a bit out of h.s. to pay my way through college without $ from parents).

One point from our PREVIOUS discussion.

A FB player is a student-athlete. He does not teach which is the mission of a college.

A Ph.D. student at UofM teaching undergrad X is an employee (teaching is an occupation normally found in colleges and universities). The grad student TA is kind of a junior teacher. Should have a master's degree and working on a PhD.

I believe teaching assistants must pay taxes on their TA stipends. It is considered employment. A FB studying PE is not considered an employee of the school. He doesn't teach football theory and practice to h.s. or jr. h.s. coaches. Matter of fact, I believe a master's degree is required to teach at most universities.

I thought of this recently. A few weeks ago I had a local U. professor over for lunch and he was talking about his TAs and what it involved during the pandemic (this school was almost entirely remote, except for those involving labs, practicums. etc.). He has 16 TAs and they teach an intro, required course at the U.

This is an interesting approach to the issue at hand - but i dont think that everyone doing the same job is getting the same pay. for example - a scholarship to Northwestern has more value (dollars wise) than a scholarship to EMU. strictly speaking - the punters for both of these schools are doing the same job for different pay.

If i was representing the players in a collective bargaining sessions i would argue for the following package for players:
2 transfers during their eligibility
all players in NCAA get equal pay ON TOP of scholarships (based on previous seasons revenues)
players are eligible for bonuses for post season accomplishment
players get unlimited earning for NIL rights
scholarships / contracts are guaranteed and in 2 or 3 year increments (to be decided between coach and player)

as for players not being teachers - neither is the guy who runs the bookstore. athletes still represent and generate income for the member institutions of the NCAA.

The value of an education is a complete can of worms.

Is an Alabama education equal to Cal Tech? Harvard? UofM? If I were a STEM athlete, I'd say Cal Tech, Harvard and UofM over AL. If I wanted to be a NFL player, I'd take AL.

P.S. what you are proposing is professionalizing college sports by giving them bonuses. Bonuses are paid for exemplary work.

P.S. II: The guy who runs the book store is an employee and has to pay taxes on income. We don't want student-athletes being classified as employees and end up paying taxes (which they can't afford as they aren't paid cash wages).

I maintain that you would create the biggest can of worms which would harm collegiate athletics.

P.S. III: (bonus) I believe the reason teaching assistants can try to organize is that they are considered employees. Employees have an inherent right to organize.

1.) Yup. I think college players should be paid. Welcome to the board.

2.) Yes - under my system players income would be taxable and would be paid cash wages. They would also be given full medical benefits and even a 401k. They would also be eligible for workman's comp and disability.

3.) Players should be classified as employees so they have the right to organize.
Please stop with this pseudo hippie nonsense. Universities are already losing their asses, mid majors would just shut down their programs. You'd have club flag football. Give players the choice of free education or cash wages. Debate over. It never was a debate, Bernie Sanders. Buh-bye.

"we should pay people for working" = "psuedo Hippie nonsense"

You never cease to amaze me.

You can pay 75 guys 40k a year for 3 million dollars. in 2020 every big ten team got a pay out of 55 million dollars from the Big Ten Network alone. The Big 12 paid out 40 million. ACC paid 30 Million. Pac 12 paid 32 Million. I'm sure in the whole NCAA you can find the cash to kick 3 mill to every school (granted im assuming the big schools would subsidize the smaller ones - something they already do in a lot of ways).

EMU - a school that isnt in the best financial shape in the world - had an operating budget of 288 million for the 2019-2020 fiscal year. a 3 million bump would be less than 1 percent of the total budget. And honestly if I was the governor of michigan and i wanted an easy win - id have the state budget give all 5 Div 1 schools the money to pay the players right out of the state budget. make recruiting even easier.
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2021 06:28 AM by dansplaining.)
05-28-2021 06:26 AM
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emu steve Online
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Post: #37
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-28-2021 06:26 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:17 AM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 02:37 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:20 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:02 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  This is an interesting approach to the issue at hand - but i dont think that everyone doing the same job is getting the same pay. for example - a scholarship to Northwestern has more value (dollars wise) than a scholarship to EMU. strictly speaking - the punters for both of these schools are doing the same job for different pay.

If i was representing the players in a collective bargaining sessions i would argue for the following package for players:
2 transfers during their eligibility
all players in NCAA get equal pay ON TOP of scholarships (based on previous seasons revenues)
players are eligible for bonuses for post season accomplishment
players get unlimited earning for NIL rights
scholarships / contracts are guaranteed and in 2 or 3 year increments (to be decided between coach and player)

as for players not being teachers - neither is the guy who runs the bookstore. athletes still represent and generate income for the member institutions of the NCAA.

The value of an education is a complete can of worms.

Is an Alabama education equal to Cal Tech? Harvard? UofM? If I were a STEM athlete, I'd say Cal Tech, Harvard and UofM over AL. If I wanted to be a NFL player, I'd take AL.

P.S. what you are proposing is professionalizing college sports by giving them bonuses. Bonuses are paid for exemplary work.

P.S. II: The guy who runs the book store is an employee and has to pay taxes on income. We don't want student-athletes being classified as employees and end up paying taxes (which they can't afford as they aren't paid cash wages).

I maintain that you would create the biggest can of worms which would harm collegiate athletics.

P.S. III: (bonus) I believe the reason teaching assistants can try to organize is that they are considered employees. Employees have an inherent right to organize.

1.) Yup. I think college players should be paid. Welcome to the board.

2.) Yes - under my system players income would be taxable and would be paid cash wages. They would also be given full medical benefits and even a 401k. They would also be eligible for workman's comp and disability.

3.) Players should be classified as employees so they have the right to organize.
Please stop with this pseudo hippie nonsense. Universities are already losing their asses, mid majors would just shut down their programs. You'd have club flag football. Give players the choice of free education or cash wages. Debate over. It never was a debate, Bernie Sanders. Buh-bye.

"we should pay people for working" = "psuedo Hippie nonsense"

You never cease to amaze me.

You can pay 75 guys 40k a year for 3 million dollars. in 2020 every big ten team got a pay out of 55 million dollars from the Big Ten Network alone. The Big 12 paid out 40 million. ACC paid 30 Million. Pac 12 paid 32 Million. I'm sure in the whole NCAA you can find the cash to kick 3 mill to every school (granted im assuming the big schools would subsidize the smaller ones - something they already do in a lot of ways).

Despite your last sentence (big schools subsidize small schools in token ways, and NOT voluntarily, either), a true pro model would drive the MAC to say D-II status.

We're hemorrhaging red ink, as a university and athletic dept. and you want to bust our athletic budget???? 04-chairshot
05-28-2021 06:32 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-28-2021 06:32 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:26 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:17 AM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 02:37 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 12:20 PM)emu steve Wrote:  The value of an education is a complete can of worms.

Is an Alabama education equal to Cal Tech? Harvard? UofM? If I were a STEM athlete, I'd say Cal Tech, Harvard and UofM over AL. If I wanted to be a NFL player, I'd take AL.

P.S. what you are proposing is professionalizing college sports by giving them bonuses. Bonuses are paid for exemplary work.

P.S. II: The guy who runs the book store is an employee and has to pay taxes on income. We don't want student-athletes being classified as employees and end up paying taxes (which they can't afford as they aren't paid cash wages).

I maintain that you would create the biggest can of worms which would harm collegiate athletics.

P.S. III: (bonus) I believe the reason teaching assistants can try to organize is that they are considered employees. Employees have an inherent right to organize.

1.) Yup. I think college players should be paid. Welcome to the board.

2.) Yes - under my system players income would be taxable and would be paid cash wages. They would also be given full medical benefits and even a 401k. They would also be eligible for workman's comp and disability.

3.) Players should be classified as employees so they have the right to organize.
Please stop with this pseudo hippie nonsense. Universities are already losing their asses, mid majors would just shut down their programs. You'd have club flag football. Give players the choice of free education or cash wages. Debate over. It never was a debate, Bernie Sanders. Buh-bye.

"we should pay people for working" = "psuedo Hippie nonsense"

You never cease to amaze me.

You can pay 75 guys 40k a year for 3 million dollars. in 2020 every big ten team got a pay out of 55 million dollars from the Big Ten Network alone. The Big 12 paid out 40 million. ACC paid 30 Million. Pac 12 paid 32 Million. I'm sure in the whole NCAA you can find the cash to kick 3 mill to every school (granted im assuming the big schools would subsidize the smaller ones - something they already do in a lot of ways).

Despite your last sentence (big schools subsidize small schools in token ways, and NOT voluntarily, either), a true pro model would drive the MAC to say D-II status.

We're hemorrhaging red ink, as a university and athletic dept. and you want to bust our athletic budget???? 04-chairshot

i actually edited in another line after i posted:

EMU - a school that isnt in the best financial shape in the world - had an operating budget of 288 million for the 2019-2020 fiscal year. a 3 million bump would be less than 1 percent of the total budget. And honestly if I was the governor of Michigan and i wanted an easy win - id have the state budget give all 5 Div 1 schools the money to pay the players right out of the state budget. make recruiting even easier.
05-28-2021 06:34 AM
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emu steve Online
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Post: #39
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-28-2021 06:34 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:32 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:26 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:17 AM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  
(05-25-2021 02:37 PM)dansplaining Wrote:  1.) Yup. I think college players should be paid. Welcome to the board.

2.) Yes - under my system players income would be taxable and would be paid cash wages. They would also be given full medical benefits and even a 401k. They would also be eligible for workman's comp and disability.

3.) Players should be classified as employees so they have the right to organize.
Please stop with this pseudo hippie nonsense. Universities are already losing their asses, mid majors would just shut down their programs. You'd have club flag football. Give players the choice of free education or cash wages. Debate over. It never was a debate, Bernie Sanders. Buh-bye.

"we should pay people for working" = "psuedo Hippie nonsense"

You never cease to amaze me.

You can pay 75 guys 40k a year for 3 million dollars. in 2020 every big ten team got a pay out of 55 million dollars from the Big Ten Network alone. The Big 12 paid out 40 million. ACC paid 30 Million. Pac 12 paid 32 Million. I'm sure in the whole NCAA you can find the cash to kick 3 mill to every school (granted im assuming the big schools would subsidize the smaller ones - something they already do in a lot of ways).

Despite your last sentence (big schools subsidize small schools in token ways, and NOT voluntarily, either), a true pro model would drive the MAC to say D-II status.

We're hemorrhaging red ink, as a university and athletic dept. and you want to bust our athletic budget???? 04-chairshot

i actually edited in another line after i posted:

EMU - a school that isnt in the best financial shape in the world - had an operating budget of 288 million for the 2019-2020 fiscal year. a 3 million bump would be less than 1 percent of the total budget. And honestly if I was the governor of Michigan and i wanted an easy win - id have the state budget give all 5 Div 1 schools the money to pay the players right out of the state budget. make recruiting even easier.

Man, you come on campus near academic buildings and they would throw spit balls (okay, pop corn ala Russell Westbrook) at you.

EMU has been cutting and cutting and cutting for years and you want to spend more for athletics????

Reducing staff, hiring more adjunct, etc.

I think the ONE point you and I agree: IF I were the MI gov. I would use some Covid money and find a way to add 1M per FT student at MI public universities.

Schools would get ONE TIME 15, 20, 25, or even 50M depending on enrollment.

Need to put universities back on better financial footing.
05-28-2021 07:01 AM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Cheating in CFB
(05-28-2021 07:01 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:34 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:32 AM)emu steve Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:26 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-28-2021 06:17 AM)Bob Wickersham Wrote:  Please stop with this pseudo hippie nonsense. Universities are already losing their asses, mid majors would just shut down their programs. You'd have club flag football. Give players the choice of free education or cash wages. Debate over. It never was a debate, Bernie Sanders. Buh-bye.

"we should pay people for working" = "psuedo Hippie nonsense"

You never cease to amaze me.

You can pay 75 guys 40k a year for 3 million dollars. in 2020 every big ten team got a pay out of 55 million dollars from the Big Ten Network alone. The Big 12 paid out 40 million. ACC paid 30 Million. Pac 12 paid 32 Million. I'm sure in the whole NCAA you can find the cash to kick 3 mill to every school (granted im assuming the big schools would subsidize the smaller ones - something they already do in a lot of ways).

Despite your last sentence (big schools subsidize small schools in token ways, and NOT voluntarily, either), a true pro model would drive the MAC to say D-II status.

We're hemorrhaging red ink, as a university and athletic dept. and you want to bust our athletic budget???? 04-chairshot

i actually edited in another line after i posted:

EMU - a school that isnt in the best financial shape in the world - had an operating budget of 288 million for the 2019-2020 fiscal year. a 3 million bump would be less than 1 percent of the total budget. And honestly if I was the governor of Michigan and i wanted an easy win - id have the state budget give all 5 Div 1 schools the money to pay the players right out of the state budget. make recruiting even easier.

Man, you come on campus near academic buildings and they would throw spit balls (okay, pop corn ala Russell Westbrook) at you.

EMU has been cutting and cutting and cutting for years and you want to spend more for athletics????

Reducing staff, hiring more adjunct, etc.

I think the ONE point you and I agree: IF I were the MI gov. I would use some Covid money and find a way to add 1M per FT student at MI public universities.

Schools would get ONE TIME 15, 20, 25, or even 50M depending on enrollment.

Need to put universities back on better financial footing.

This isn't just an EMU problem. there are 125 NCAA Div I-A programs that need to reckon with the fact that sooner or later the economics of college sports are going to change A LOT. It's pretty obvious that the times - they are a changing. The best bet most G5 schools have to survive is if the NCAA institutes revenue sharing like the NFL and other pro leagues. That way the rising tide lifts all ships. Resisting it outright will only get schools and fans left behind. get busy living or get busy dying right?
05-28-2021 07:15 AM
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