The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(04-01-2021 03:10 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 01:32 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I'd like you to prove it.

Prove what? That confidence matters when you are shooting the ball? Is there even a debate about that?

I doubt that you can prove it. (certainly cannot prove that Jones decreases confidence of players causing them to shoot worse than they would originally shoot)

(04-01-2021 03:59 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 03:10 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 01:32 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I'd like you to prove it.

Prove what? That confidence matters when you are shooting the ball? Is there even a debate about that?

I doubt that you can prove it. (certainly cannot prove that Jones decreases confidence of players causing them to shoot worse than they would originally shoot)

You can't prove that confidence matter because there is no way to look into a players head to know how much confidence he has. It's one of those things that you know it when you see it. When I was in high school I was taught basketball cybernetics from Stan Kellner. He taught focus and confidence over mechanics. To see the ball go through the hoop in your head before you take the shot. There is a 52 minute video on YouTube where he goes through some of his techniques.

https://youtu.be/hGYQMSeOcJ4

I'm a believer. It made me a better shooter. I shot 80% from the line by visualizing the shot before I took it. I've seen many other players through the years using the technique. Shooting is most certainly mental.

I’ll never forget Aaron Carver at the NCAAT game in Hartford would get the ball inside the foul line, wide open but would never shoot. Other teams fans all over the arena yelled out “shoot!”, but Carver would only look to pass. Purdue did not guard him. It was 4 on 5 basketball. But as we all know Carver played most of the game because JJ is absolutely fine with players with little to no offensive basketball skills.

(04-01-2021 03:59 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 03:10 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-01-2021 01:32 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  I'd like you to prove it.

Prove what? That confidence matters when you are shooting the ball? Is there even a debate about that?

I doubt that you can prove it.

This is where you start wading into the absurd. To imply that confidence has no effect on performance is just completely irrational. If confidence is not an issue why are there guys with perfect technique who shoot a better percentage from 3 pt range than they do from the foul line? Why are there golfers who get the yips? Why are there baseball players who all of a sudden can't make a simple throw like a catcher that can't throw the ball back to the pitcher or a second baseman who can't make the throw to first. These are extreme cases, just to make the point, but people choke all the time when the pressure is on.

I would say the onus is on you to prove that confidence does not play a role in execution since my position is the one that is widely accepted.

Your assumptions are:

A) Confidence matters
B) Jones lessens the confidence of players because he yells at them when they take low percentage shots.

(04-02-2021 09:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Your assumptions are:

A) Confidence matters
B) Jones lessens the confidence of players because he yells at them when they take low percentage shots.

Go ahead. Explain your theory on why JJ's teams haven't been able to shoot for 30 years, and don't give me the defense first garbage. There a plenty of coaches who build better defensive teams than JJ, but still shoot the ball at a reasonable rate.

(04-02-2021 09:33 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Your assumptions are:

A) Confidence matters
B) Jones lessens the confidence of players because he yells at them when they take low percentage shots.

Go ahead. Explain your theory on why JJ's teams haven't been able to shoot for 30 years, and don't give me the defense first garbage. There a plenty of coaches who build better defensive teams than JJ, but still shoot the ball at a reasonable rate.

Good grief, people have explained it on here 100 times. Do you think all players can shoot with the right coaching?

(04-02-2021 09:39 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:33 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Your assumptions are:

A) Confidence matters
B) Jones lessens the confidence of players because he yells at them when they take low percentage shots.

Go ahead. Explain your theory on why JJ's teams haven't been able to shoot for 30 years, and don't give me the defense first garbage. There a plenty of coaches who build better defensive teams than JJ, but still shoot the ball at a reasonable rate.

Good grief, people have explained it on here 100 times. Do you think all players can shoot with the right coaching?

I think most players can shoot better with good coaching.

Andy Enfield is supposed to be one of the best shooting coaches in the country. His Elite 8 team this year shot 64.89% from the line this year. Our team of poor shooters with destroyed confidence shot 69.25%. Sometimes, it's not the coaching.

(04-02-2021 09:39 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:33 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Your assumptions are:

A) Confidence matters
B) Jones lessens the confidence of players because he yells at them when they take low percentage shots.

Go ahead. Explain your theory on why JJ's teams haven't been able to shoot for 30 years, and don't give me the defense first garbage. There a plenty of coaches who build better defensive teams than JJ, but still shoot the ball at a reasonable rate.

Good grief, people have explained it on here 100 times. Do you think all players can shoot with the right coaching?

I think that 30 years worth of players would not produce nearly 100% bad shooting teams if it were just that the players can't shoot. Wouldn't you think at some point you would decide that you need a couple shooters? Wouldn't you think dumb luck would land you a team that is decent at shooting the ball at some point? Do you think the coach has anything to do with anything in terms of player development? If so, then why doesn't shooting fall into that category, and if not, then what the hell do you think coaches do?

(04-02-2021 09:54 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Andy Enfield is supposed to be one of the best shooting coaches in the country. His Elite 8 team this year shot 64.89% from the line this year. Our team of poor shooters with destroyed confidence shot 69.25%. Sometimes, it's not the coaching.

Sometimes it is, and when you have a 30 year history, we aren't talking about a down year where things just didn't fall into place for you.

(04-02-2021 09:54 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Andy Enfield is supposed to be one of the best shooting coaches in the country. His Elite 8 team this year shot 64.89% from the line this year. Our team of poor shooters with destroyed confidence shot 69.25%. Sometimes, it's not the coaching.

Makes you wonder how poorly they shot before he coached them up.

I think two things can be true: 1) Jeff Jones hasn't adapted to new era basketball and doesn't value shooting ability enough. 2) It's not necessarily the coach's fault when a player misses a shot.

Frankly, I've always argued that college coaches should not have to spend any time at practice having the team shoot free throws. (Let me be clear, I think coach's should spend individual time with players on shooting). Division 1 athletes should spend their own time on foul shooting. It's all about muscle memory. It should be up to the player to spend that time working on developing the muscle memory to be able to shoot a decent percentage. And, for heaven's sake, if you hover around 50% and can't improve, shoot underhanded. It's more embarrassing to miss half of your free throws than it is to shoot underhanded.

(04-02-2021 09:57 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:39 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:33 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(04-02-2021 09:27 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Your assumptions are:

A) Confidence matters
B) Jones lessens the confidence of players because he yells at them when they take low percentage shots.

Go ahead. Explain your theory on why JJ's teams haven't been able to shoot for 30 years, and don't give me the defense first garbage. There a plenty of coaches who build better defensive teams than JJ, but still shoot the ball at a reasonable rate.

Good grief, people have explained it on here 100 times. Do you think all players can shoot with the right coaching?

I think that 30 years worth of players would not produce nearly 100% bad shooting teams if it were just that the players can't shoot. Wouldn't you think at some point you would decide that you need a couple shooters? Wouldn't you think dumb luck would land you a team that is decent at shooting the ball at some point? Do you think the coach has anything to do with anything in terms of player development? If so, then why doesn't shooting fall into that category, and if not, then what the hell do you think coaches do?

They have had a few teams that were good shooting teams. 2018 and 2019 were good shooting teams. In fact, both were better than any team that Blaine Taylor had.

At American, Jones had some really good shooting teams.

2013- 68th
2012- 14th
2009- 47th
2008- 3rd
2005- 70th
2004- 60th
2003- 37th

At UVA, he had the 37th best shooting team in 1997 (kenpom doesn't go before 1997)

Unless the kids he recruited are tougher at American to handle his "yelling," then it probably has a lot to do with what type of players you recruit to your program.

Unless you believe Jones forgot how to teach shooting or the players at ODU cannot handle getting yelled at.

P.S. the italic was completely wrong as I showed. Do some research.

My son's soccer team scrimmaged an elite team last year and lost 12-1. Though we were outmatched from the start, we hung with them for a half and only trailed 1-0. They scored again at the beginning of the 2nd half and the wheels fell off. You could see it in their body language... slumped shoulders, etc. Teamwork halted and it became one desperate player after another trying to take on the whole team individually. We played them a month later, held it together, and won 3-2, playing probably the best game I have seen them play collectively ever (still haven't matched that). Call it confidence, focus, or whatever... but there are certainly intangibles that go into the results. How much control over that JJ has is certainly questionable... could be other things like cheating girlfriends, breakups, alcohol/drug abuse, sleep, nutrition, academic stress, adversity within the team dynamic, etc. However, you cannot pretend performance can be solely evaluated tangibly. There is a reason some coaches rise above the rest. Yes, by the time they become great, they are getting better players... but greats like Mark Few, Brad Stevens, Gregg Marshall, even Pitino and Coach K did not start building their programs with the best players. Not arguing against analytics as having a role as a tool or claiming it is all JJ's fault, just pointing out there is a lot more to it.

Fire Mark Few!!!!

LOL

If Baylor wins, it shouldn’t count because 4 out of the 8 players they have played tonight were transfers.

Baylor’s defenses is absolutely suffocating. Impregnable.

(04-05-2021 10:04 PM)Monarch Pride Wrote:  Baylor’s defenses is absolutely suffocating. Impregnable.

I can only dream of ODU ever having athletes even fairly close to the caliber of the Bears, very impressive.

(04-05-2021 10:48 PM)NC ODUFan Wrote:  

(04-05-2021 10:04 PM)Monarch Pride Wrote:  Baylor’s defenses is absolutely suffocating. Impregnable.

I can only dream of ODU ever having athletes even fairly close to the caliber of the Bears, very impressive.

As the Baylor coach said, "It's not the X's and O's. It's the Jimmy's and the Joe's".

ODU could use a few of those Jimmy's and Joe's for sure.