community response unit

I think this is what Ham was talking about, or close to it. I hope it works out well. I notice though, that DV calls are not among the ones they will respond to.

"They’ll respond to a wide range of calls such as abandoned cars, loose cattle, burglaries, and credit card fraud."

From the descriptions, it appears that they will respond to calls with a low or no chance of violence.

I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

(03-12-2021 12:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  community response unit

I think this is what Ham was talking about, or close to it. I hope it works out well. I notice though, that DV calls are not among the ones they will respond to.

"They’ll respond to a wide range of calls such as abandoned cars, loose cattle, burglaries, and credit card fraud."

From the descriptions, it appears that they will respond to calls with a low or no chance of violence.

I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing. You know, the whole fund social workers in a van that you’ve argued against (but that pilot tests in Denver have had amazing success with).

(03-12-2021 07:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  community response unit

I think this is what Ham was talking about, or close to it. I hope it works out well. I notice though, that DV calls are not among the ones they will respond to.

"They’ll respond to a wide range of calls such as abandoned cars, loose cattle, burglaries, and credit card fraud."

From the descriptions, it appears that they will respond to calls with a low or no chance of violence.

I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing. You know, the whole fund social workers in a van that you’ve argued against (but that pilot tests in Denver have had amazing success with).

To be fair, a concept you have had trouble with lately, the point of contention I have had with Ham in the past involved primarily sending mental health workers to domestic violence calls. I see nothing in in fort Worth's approach about DV calls. I think any cop will tell you that DV calls have a high capacity for violence.

As for the defunding, most of the ones I have read about involve a reduction in funding as well as or instead of a reapportioning of spending.

Seattle, the poster city for defunding

" By the end of the year, the council had reduced the department’s budget by $69 million."

US cities

"With public pressure on them, mayors and city councils responded. In 2020 budget votes, advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Do the math.

First buy, then spread the myths, Lad.

(03-12-2021 08:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 07:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  community response unit

I think this is what Ham was talking about, or close to it. I hope it works out well. I notice though, that DV calls are not among the ones they will respond to.

"They’ll respond to a wide range of calls such as abandoned cars, loose cattle, burglaries, and credit card fraud."

From the descriptions, it appears that they will respond to calls with a low or no chance of violence.

I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing. You know, the whole fund social workers in a van that you’ve argued against (but that pilot tests in Denver have had amazing success with).

To be fair, a concept you have had trouble with lately, the point of contention I have had with Ham in the past involved primarily sending mental health workers to domestic violence calls. I see nothing in in fort Worth's approach about DV calls. I think any cop will tell you that DV calls have a high capacity for violence.

As for the defunding, most of the ones I have read about involve a reduction in funding as well as or instead of a reapportioning of spending.

Seattle, the poster city for defunding

" By the end of the year, the council had reduced the department’s budget by $69 million."

US cities

"With public pressure on them, mayors and city councils responded. In 2020 budget votes, advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Do the math.

First buy, then spread the myths, Lad.

Ah, yes, the myth that I specifically referenced. Christ.

Quote:A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers has proven successful in its first six months, according to a progress report.

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police or led to arrests or jail time.

https://denverite.com/2021/02/02/in-the-...-arrested/

Plus, let's look at your articles.

Seattle is working on the budget moves - the article points out how the reductions were rushed and those moves weren't in place.

Quote:Council members should not dance around the judge’s words to make further police funding cuts. City officials are right to step up social services to support people in crisis rather than defaulting to police interventions. But that does not mean policing should be immediately hollowed out.

So far, the council has wished away this problem. The new social-service interventions that were supposed to cut the need for police at crisis scenes remain works in progress.

To The Guardian article, you literally quoted how some funding is being invested in community services. And look a little deeper:

Quote:San Francisco officials pledged to divest $120m from police over two years with plans to invest in health programs and workforce training. Minneapolis is using police cuts to launch a mental health team to respond to certain 911 calls.

They even break down how Austin plans to redirect the budget funds.

Quote:The Austin police funds were reallocated to emergency medical services for Covid-19, community medics, mental health first responders, services for homeless people, substance abuse programs, food access, workforce development, abortion services, victim support, parks and more. The city council is using money saved from the police budget to buy two hotels to provide supportive housing for homeless residents.

It looks like you did nothing but read the headlines and ignore reality...

(03-12-2021 09:10 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 08:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 07:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  community response unit

I think this is what Ham was talking about, or close to it. I hope it works out well. I notice though, that DV calls are not among the ones they will respond to.

"They’ll respond to a wide range of calls such as abandoned cars, loose cattle, burglaries, and credit card fraud."

From the descriptions, it appears that they will respond to calls with a low or no chance of violence.

I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing. You know, the whole fund social workers in a van that you’ve argued against (but that pilot tests in Denver have had amazing success with).

To be fair, a concept you have had trouble with lately, the point of contention I have had with Ham in the past involved primarily sending mental health workers to domestic violence calls. I see nothing in in fort Worth's approach about DV calls. I think any cop will tell you that DV calls have a high capacity for violence.

As for the defunding, most of the ones I have read about involve a reduction in funding as well as or instead of a reapportioning of spending.

Seattle, the poster city for defunding

" By the end of the year, the council had reduced the department’s budget by $69 million."

US cities

"With public pressure on them, mayors and city councils responded. In 2020 budget votes, advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Do the math.

First buy, then spread the myths, Lad.

Ah, yes, the myth that I specifically referenced. Christ.

Quote:A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers has proven successful in its first six months, according to a progress report.

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police or led to arrests or jail time.

https://denverite.com/2021/02/02/in-the-...-arrested/

Plus, let's look at your articles.

Seattle is working on the budget moves - the article points out how the reductions were rushed and those moves weren't in place.

Quote:Council members should not dance around the judge’s words to make further police funding cuts. City officials are right to step up social services to support people in crisis rather than defaulting to police interventions. But that does not mean policing should be immediately hollowed out.

So far, the council has wished away this problem. The new social-service interventions that were supposed to cut the need for police at crisis scenes remain works in progress.

To The Guardian article, you literally quoted how some funding is being invested in community services. And look a little deeper:

Quote:San Francisco officials pledged to divest $120m from police over two years with plans to invest in health programs and workforce training. Minneapolis is using police cuts to launch a mental health team to respond to certain 911 calls.

They even break down how Austin plans to redirect the budget funds.

Quote:The Austin police funds were reallocated to emergency medical services for Covid-19, community medics, mental health first responders, services for homeless people, substance abuse programs, food access, workforce development, abortion services, victim support, parks and more. The city council is using money saved from the police budget to buy two hotels to provide supportive housing for homeless residents.

It looks like you did nothing but read the headlines and ignore reality...

Apology accepted, Lad

yes, I showed how 'some' funding was being moved - and you ignore the rest which has disappeared. Nice editing, Laddie.

So your contention is that not one dollar has been taken from police that was not shifted to social services. All city budgets are exactly the same in total. Sounds like a CNN report to me.

I post a report of a city trying something new, and Lad immediately goes ballistic. Maybe something to do with the letters O and O?

(03-12-2021 09:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:10 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 08:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 07:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  community response unit

I think this is what Ham was talking about, or close to it. I hope it works out well. I notice though, that DV calls are not among the ones they will respond to.

"They’ll respond to a wide range of calls such as abandoned cars, loose cattle, burglaries, and credit card fraud."

From the descriptions, it appears that they will respond to calls with a low or no chance of violence.

I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing. You know, the whole fund social workers in a van that you’ve argued against (but that pilot tests in Denver have had amazing success with).

To be fair, a concept you have had trouble with lately, the point of contention I have had with Ham in the past involved primarily sending mental health workers to domestic violence calls. I see nothing in in fort Worth's approach about DV calls. I think any cop will tell you that DV calls have a high capacity for violence.

As for the defunding, most of the ones I have read about involve a reduction in funding as well as or instead of a reapportioning of spending.

Seattle, the poster city for defunding

" By the end of the year, the council had reduced the department’s budget by $69 million."

US cities

"With public pressure on them, mayors and city councils responded. In 2020 budget votes, advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Do the math.

First buy, then spread the myths, Lad.

Ah, yes, the myth that I specifically referenced. Christ.

Quote:A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers has proven successful in its first six months, according to a progress report.

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police or led to arrests or jail time.

https://denverite.com/2021/02/02/in-the-...-arrested/

Plus, let's look at your articles.

Seattle is working on the budget moves - the article points out how the reductions were rushed and those moves weren't in place.

Quote:Council members should not dance around the judge’s words to make further police funding cuts. City officials are right to step up social services to support people in crisis rather than defaulting to police interventions. But that does not mean policing should be immediately hollowed out.

So far, the council has wished away this problem. The new social-service interventions that were supposed to cut the need for police at crisis scenes remain works in progress.

To The Guardian article, you literally quoted how some funding is being invested in community services. And look a little deeper:

Quote:San Francisco officials pledged to divest $120m from police over two years with plans to invest in health programs and workforce training. Minneapolis is using police cuts to launch a mental health team to respond to certain 911 calls.

They even break down how Austin plans to redirect the budget funds.

Quote:The Austin police funds were reallocated to emergency medical services for Covid-19, community medics, mental health first responders, services for homeless people, substance abuse programs, food access, workforce development, abortion services, victim support, parks and more. The city council is using money saved from the police budget to buy two hotels to provide supportive housing for homeless residents.

It looks like you did nothing but read the headlines and ignore reality...

Apology accepted, Lad

yes, I showed how 'some' funding was being moved - and you ignore the rest which has disappeared. Nice editing, Laddie.

So your contention is that not one dollar has been taken from police that was not shifted to social services. All city budgets are exactly the same in total. Sounds like a CNN report to me.

I post a report of a city trying something new, and Lad immediately goes ballistic. Maybe something to do with the letters O and O?

No - that is not my contention.

"The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing."

Not all and everyone, but the majority.

I didn't go ballistic - looks like Tanq is rubbing off on you. Quick to jump to hyperbole mode.

I pushed back on this statement, "I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded." which seems to clearly misunderstand that the majority of the movement is about shifting funds - and it's likely that the defund the police movement influenced this decision.

(03-12-2021 09:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:10 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 08:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 07:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing. You know, the whole fund social workers in a van that you’ve argued against (but that pilot tests in Denver have had amazing success with).

To be fair, a concept you have had trouble with lately, the point of contention I have had with Ham in the past involved primarily sending mental health workers to domestic violence calls. I see nothing in in fort Worth's approach about DV calls. I think any cop will tell you that DV calls have a high capacity for violence.

As for the defunding, most of the ones I have read about involve a reduction in funding as well as or instead of a reapportioning of spending.

Seattle, the poster city for defunding

" By the end of the year, the council had reduced the department’s budget by $69 million."

US cities

"With public pressure on them, mayors and city councils responded. In 2020 budget votes, advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Do the math.

First buy, then spread the myths, Lad.

Ah, yes, the myth that I specifically referenced. Christ.

Quote:A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers has proven successful in its first six months, according to a progress report.

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police or led to arrests or jail time.

https://denverite.com/2021/02/02/in-the-...-arrested/

Plus, let's look at your articles.

Seattle is working on the budget moves - the article points out how the reductions were rushed and those moves weren't in place.

Quote:Council members should not dance around the judge’s words to make further police funding cuts. City officials are right to step up social services to support people in crisis rather than defaulting to police interventions. But that does not mean policing should be immediately hollowed out.

So far, the council has wished away this problem. The new social-service interventions that were supposed to cut the need for police at crisis scenes remain works in progress.

To The Guardian article, you literally quoted how some funding is being invested in community services. And look a little deeper:

Quote:San Francisco officials pledged to divest $120m from police over two years with plans to invest in health programs and workforce training. Minneapolis is using police cuts to launch a mental health team to respond to certain 911 calls.

They even break down how Austin plans to redirect the budget funds.

Quote:The Austin police funds were reallocated to emergency medical services for Covid-19, community medics, mental health first responders, services for homeless people, substance abuse programs, food access, workforce development, abortion services, victim support, parks and more. The city council is using money saved from the police budget to buy two hotels to provide supportive housing for homeless residents.

It looks like you did nothing but read the headlines and ignore reality...

Apology accepted, Lad

yes, I showed how 'some' funding was being moved - and you ignore the rest which has disappeared. Nice editing, Laddie.

So your contention is that not one dollar has been taken from police that was not shifted to social services. All city budgets are exactly the same in total. Sounds like a CNN report to me.

I post a report of a city trying something new, and Lad immediately goes ballistic. Maybe something to do with the letters O and O?

No - that is not my contention.

"The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing."

Not all and everyone, but the majority.

I didn't go ballistic - looks like Tanq is rubbing off on you. Quick to jump to hyperbole mode.

I pushed back on this statement, "I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded." which seems to clearly misunderstand that the majority of the movement is about shifting funds - and it's likely that the defund the police movement influenced this decision.

Majority? I guess you will see what you want to see. Here is the "majority" I see - "advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Hmm, 160 is the majority of 840...is that the math you defend?

(03-12-2021 07:23 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.

That last comment is a fundamental misunderstanding of the aims of defund the police.

And the entire rest of this conversation is a fundamental misunderstanding of many and perhaps MOST people's (on the 'requesting' side) understanding of THIER aims of 'defund the police'.

I agree that there are many and often large swaths of the movement that do just as described here, but much of the PROTESTS and protesters in favor of these things view it more as a means of reducing the number and power/capabilities and 'armament' of police. THAT is what their signs say. THAT is what they chant. THAT is what they talk about when you get 'joe average' in front of a reporter... and politicians happily support, encourage and don't correct them.

SOME of those people want to 'defund the police' because they're criminals.

The best evidence of this is that I- Hambone10- a CLEAR right wing supporter and supporter of the police (in general, there are certainly BAD BAD BAD cops) was the one carrying the water for this sort of redirecting of funds from patrol, arrest and incarceration to intervention and treatment on this forum, taking POLITE heat from a few... and the 'left' on this issue was mostly silent... UNUSUALLY so on an issue where they actually had some bipartisan support. I was disappointed because it seemed that 'confrontation' was more important than agreement or actually working towards solutions, which is precisely what we're talking about here. It is the focus on the CONFRONTATION with police that is more important than the agreement that police shouldn't be targeting people based on race or income or whatever else, and certainly shouldn't be harming innocent people or those with any of a variety of challenges.

There was even discussion (by me) that JUST AS IN HEALTHCARE UNDER THE ACA (another time when politicians lied about this same thing), an effort to provide future cost savings would REQUIRE more investment upfront... and that you couldn't count on the benefits of future training or the benefits of future employees/departments or the benefits of cultural shift months if not years before they were in place, and you can't CUT police funding until you have those other options in place without consequences. Not all consequences are bad

In the above articles, ONE very clearly claims $840m in cuts and only $160m in new investments.

If ANYONE believes that you can replace 840m in policing with 160m in 'non police' interventions and therapy, they're out of their minds. If you COULD, THAT would be the selling point and you'd have tens of millions of fiscal conservatives on board with this. Of course what i don't see there is any talk of tax cuts, meaning the money is still there, and just being spent elsewhere. Unlike the feds, a city can't run a perpetual deficit.

Another (Seattle) says the same thing I said months ago and am still saying now. Gee, I wonder why they decided instead to 'hollow' the police at the same time as they funded other initiative? Is it perhaps because that was EXACTLY what most people in favor of 'defunding the police' wanted? OF COURSE it was. They did precisely what they said they would do... and its floundering as a result.

The bottom line is this....

When we were having this conversation, I don't recall ANYONE on here or in the press from the left being particularly vocal about 'investment' in these alternative efforts. I recall VERY CLEARLY all of the talk about how awful police were and how they essentially needed to be 'punished' by defunding them.

THAT is what culture seems to be all about today... PUNISHING those who 'don't fit', whether or not you have an alternative.

Yes, I agree that by the time it gets to legislation, in order to get enough votes to pass specific legislation, CALMER voices (including people like me from 'the other side') get addressed, but the CLEAR DRIVER of the legislation (and often as in Seattle, the OVERPOWERING driver) is 'hate'.

I find it especially funny because in the other direction, you can't merely be 'indifferent' towards many issues without being attacked. Regardless of the words being used, HATE is the clear driver of a lot of this.

(03-12-2021 10:22 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:10 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 08:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  To be fair, a concept you have had trouble with lately, the point of contention I have had with Ham in the past involved primarily sending mental health workers to domestic violence calls. I see nothing in in fort Worth's approach about DV calls. I think any cop will tell you that DV calls have a high capacity for violence.

As for the defunding, most of the ones I have read about involve a reduction in funding as well as or instead of a reapportioning of spending.

Seattle, the poster city for defunding

" By the end of the year, the council had reduced the department’s budget by $69 million."

US cities

"With public pressure on them, mayors and city councils responded. In 2020 budget votes, advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Do the math.

First buy, then spread the myths, Lad.

Ah, yes, the myth that I specifically referenced. Christ.

Quote:A young program that puts troubled nonviolent people in the hands of health care workers instead of police officers has proven successful in its first six months, according to a progress report.

Since June 1, 2020, a mental health clinician and a paramedic have traveled around the city in a white van handling low-level incidents, like trespassing and mental health episodes, that would have otherwise fallen to patrol officers with badges and guns. In its first six months, the Support Team Assisted Response program, or STAR, has responded to 748 incidents. None required police or led to arrests or jail time.

https://denverite.com/2021/02/02/in-the-...-arrested/

Plus, let's look at your articles.

Seattle is working on the budget moves - the article points out how the reductions were rushed and those moves weren't in place.

Quote:Council members should not dance around the judge’s words to make further police funding cuts. City officials are right to step up social services to support people in crisis rather than defaulting to police interventions. But that does not mean policing should be immediately hollowed out.

So far, the council has wished away this problem. The new social-service interventions that were supposed to cut the need for police at crisis scenes remain works in progress.

To The Guardian article, you literally quoted how some funding is being invested in community services. And look a little deeper:

Quote:San Francisco officials pledged to divest $120m from police over two years with plans to invest in health programs and workforce training. Minneapolis is using police cuts to launch a mental health team to respond to certain 911 calls.

They even break down how Austin plans to redirect the budget funds.

Quote:The Austin police funds were reallocated to emergency medical services for Covid-19, community medics, mental health first responders, services for homeless people, substance abuse programs, food access, workforce development, abortion services, victim support, parks and more. The city council is using money saved from the police budget to buy two hotels to provide supportive housing for homeless residents.

It looks like you did nothing but read the headlines and ignore reality...

Apology accepted, Lad

yes, I showed how 'some' funding was being moved - and you ignore the rest which has disappeared. Nice editing, Laddie.

So your contention is that not one dollar has been taken from police that was not shifted to social services. All city budgets are exactly the same in total. Sounds like a CNN report to me.

I post a report of a city trying something new, and Lad immediately goes ballistic. Maybe something to do with the letters O and O?

No - that is not my contention.

"The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing."

Not all and everyone, but the majority.

I didn't go ballistic - looks like Tanq is rubbing off on you. Quick to jump to hyperbole mode.

I pushed back on this statement, "I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded." which seems to clearly misunderstand that the majority of the movement is about shifting funds - and it's likely that the defund the police movement influenced this decision.

Majority? I guess you will see what you want to see. Here is the "majority" I see - "advocacy groups won over $840m in direct cuts from US police departments and at least $160m investments in community services,..."

Hmm, 160 is the majority of 840...is that the math you defend?

Two things:

1) Both articles you posted basically say that, in many instances, moves are in place to redirect the funds, but they have not been finalized. The Seattle article offers a specific critique about that, and how the cart was put before the horse.

2) It isn't clear that the $160 MM is investment that comes from the $840 MM divested. I assume that the majority of the $840 MM is being diverted and the $160 MM is investment on top of the diversion.

I say that because the numbers of Austin. Austin itself cut $153 MM and diverted all of it to some other activity (either new police programs, a police safety fund, or to non-police programs that include "mergency medical services for Covid-19, community medics, mental health first responders, services for homeless people, substance abuse programs, food access, workforce development, abortion services, victim support, parks and more").

I could be wrong, but my guess is the $840MM saved was sent somewhere.

I think lad has a new bone to gnaw to death here. I notice now the tenor of his stuff has changed from "The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing" to "OO you are wrong because the monies being ripped from policing are going to abortion services like in Austin".

The primary goal of the 'defund the police' is to defang the supposed systemic racism that happens in policing, like the constant vigil of stalking and killing blacks by the police.

Ham noted that *some* places can use the funds to promote a less confrontational style of policing -- i.e. what you said in statement one. OO simply noted a program that fit that bill.

Now we (lad, that is) is down in the weeds trying to show point about monies being ripped from police departments are offset by investment in abortion services and such -- kind of a serious non-point in the original (and Ham's) post.

Let the lad chew on his discovery for a tad. It is non-germane to the issue that OO presented initially, it is a tangent on on outlying sentence that lad is doing the rope tug game with at this point. Let it be.

(03-12-2021 11:20 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I think lad has a new bone to gnaw to death here. I notice now the tenor of his stuff has changed from "The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing" to "OO you are wrong because the monies being ripped from policing are going to abortion services like in Austin".

The primary goal of the 'defund the police' is to defang the supposed systemic racism that happens in policing, like the constant vigil of stalking and killing blacks by the police.

Ham noted that *some* places can use the funds to promote a less confrontational style of policing -- i.e. what you said in statement one. OO simply noted a program that fit that bill.

Now we (lad, that is) is down in the weeds trying to show point about monies being ripped from police departments are offset by investment in abortion services and such -- kind of a serious non-point in the original (and Ham's) post.

Let the lad chew on his discovery for a tad. It is non-germane to the issue that OO presented initially, it is a tangent on on outlying sentence that lad is doing the rope tug game with at this point. Let it be.

Yes, truly gnawing on a bone here.

I provided OO information on why I said "what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing."

You focus on one element of the Austin activities, and completely ignore the other community interventions such as community medics, mental health first responders, and substance abuse programs.

You also ignore the comment about the Seattle article, which is that some places have put the cart before the horse, but they appear to have the intention to reinvest the funds in similar community interventions - like in FW or Denver or Austin.

OO was getting into the weeds about specific dollar values and what constituted "the majority." You going to similarly get uppity about bone gnawing there?

I don’t care enough to continue this back and forth given the ad hom from Tanq and OO’s desire to follow a similar path.

I believe that OO’s initial comment “I wonder if FW would have the money for this if the police were defunded.“ offers a false narrative or misunderstanding of how the defund movement would have affected this program. I believe this program is completely in line with many of the actions advocated for by those in the movement and the cities that have responded. I don’t think defunding the police would have resulted in the FW program from not happening, because we have seen defunding of the police helping to fund programs very similar to the FW one.

In fact, this nugget was tucked into the article:

Quote: Police say the idea for the program grew out of last summer's protests.

"One of the things they asked for is not having a police officer to respond to calls that don't require a police officer,” said Lt. Chris Gorrie who supervises the Civilian Response Unit. “So we decided to listen and to give this unit a try so they can respond to those low-level calls and leave us free to respond to the emergencies."

The civilians will be assigned bullet-proof vests, but they don't plan to be in a situation where they'll need them.

(03-12-2021 11:31 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:20 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I think lad has a new bone to gnaw to death here. I notice now the tenor of his stuff has changed from "The aim of what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing" to "OO you are wrong because the monies being ripped from policing are going to abortion services like in Austin".

The primary goal of the 'defund the police' is to defang the supposed systemic racism that happens in policing, like the constant vigil of stalking and killing blacks by the police.

Ham noted that *some* places can use the funds to promote a less confrontational style of policing -- i.e. what you said in statement one. OO simply noted a program that fit that bill.

Now we (lad, that is) is down in the weeds trying to show point about monies being ripped from police departments are offset by investment in abortion services and such -- kind of a serious non-point in the original (and Ham's) post.

Let the lad chew on his discovery for a tad. It is non-germane to the issue that OO presented initially, it is a tangent on on outlying sentence that lad is doing the rope tug game with at this point. Let it be.

Yes, truly gnawing on a bone here.

I provided OO information on why I said "what I imagine is the majority of those efforts was about shifting funds from more traditional policing to these kind of non-violent more community intervention style policing."

otay....

Quote:You focus on one element of the Austin activities, and completely ignore the other community interventions such as community medics, mental health first responders, and substance abuse programs.

Actually a good number, about half, are non-germane to the police funds stuff. I read the list -- criminy I live here -- I *know* the list. Fine, let's do your super duper list in detail, instead of the exemplar I noted to try and save this shitstorm from happening.

Quote:The Austin police funds were reallocated to

No quibble there.

Quote:emergency medical services for Covid-19,

And this affect the rapidly expanding crime, violent crime, and carjacking rate..... how? By stopping those wacked out Wuhan virus patients from flipping out?

Quote: community medics,

ditto from above, except strike the 'Wuhan virus' adjective.

Quote:mental health first responders,

This actually fits the bill. One for three.

Quote:services for homeless people,

This might make the cut --- but you obviously dont know much about the homeless issue in Austin. Do tell how does supplying portapotties to every underpass affect the violent crime rate here?

Quote:substance abuse programs,

A rather broad thing. Neutral in that respect.

Quote: food access,

Why doncha get back with us on the term 'food access' and what it means.

Quote: workforce development,

When you get into the background in the rise of violent crime and such post-police cut, you may realize why this grab bag of a statement isnt really that much.

Quote: abortion services,

That is a major league factor in crime attention.

Quote:victim support,

Seriously?

Quote:parks

Double seriously? If you know the background to the Austin issuea, you might understand that parks may actually increase the burgeoning crime issue here. But even if it wasnt, do you really think 'parks' is a fing replacement for police work? Even non-standard?

Quote: and more.

Oh, that makes all the difference.

Quote: The city council is using money saved from the police budget to buy two hotels to provide supportive housing for homeless residents.

They bought Candlewood hotel for 9.5 million; for 80 beds. Wow! THAT MAKES A HUUUUUUUGE difference. 114,000 for *each* homeless person that decamps.

Similar numbers for not just the other hotel, but the next one not even mentioned. Iirc, that have spent 22 million dollars or for maybe 210 beds. Do you know how many homeless now camp openly under the overpasses now that we have decriminalized public space camping? Well, you cant even use the friggin sidewalks under the highway overpasses in North Austin.

This doesnt even get into the shantytowns in every conceivable greenbelt around.

So no, I think that vaunted list that you put out as 'effectively doing police biz' --- simply for the vast greater part isnt.

I would have hoped that you took my one item and left it at that, since I am somewhat active in the police re-funding effort here. But hey, you want to try to open up your lad pull rag trick on that list -- more power to you. But, lad has to be lad and keep at it, no matter what. Yay.

(03-12-2021 11:44 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  In fact, this nugget was tucked into the article:

Quote:The civilians will be assigned bullet-proof vests, but they don't plan to be in a situation where they'll need them.

For all its supposed innovativeness, it seems that this program is committed to upholding at least one long-standing governmental tradition: wastefulness.

(03-12-2021 11:00 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I could be wrong, but my guess is the $840MM saved was sent somewhere.

I almost addresses this, but because it was already getting long, I decided not to.

I think the above is true in that as I said, nobody spoke about tax cuts so clearly the money is being spent elsewhere, but in an article SPECIFICALLY talking about reducing spending on police and increasing spending on alternative solutions, it seems ridiculous to mention 160mm in new spending, and NOT mention where 840mm was going... unless it was going to things unrelated to the issues.

It makes no sense that they wouldn't include that spending if it had ANYTHING to do with 'alternative solutions'.

See the Austin article where they note that they spent money on two hotels to be used for homeless housing. SOME wouldn't see that as directly related, but some would... and they mentioned it. SURELY within that 840mm, there was SOMETHING REMOTELY related to the problems that we're discussing worth mentioning?

SO yes, the money went elsewhere, which avoided the need to cut those programs to save 840mm or perhaps INCREASE taxes. So apparently the ONLY waste in the budget was in Police... and that we'd been underfunding the rest of the budget as a result. Talk about mis-management.

This is clearly a ploy to get rid of police. It has to be covered up with platitudes about alternative approaches to be sufficiently palatable to gain acceptance, but the objective is abundantly clear.

(03-12-2021 12:26 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:00 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I could be wrong, but my guess is the $840MM saved was sent somewhere.

I think the above is true in that as I said, nobody spoke about tax cuts so clearly the money is being spent elsewhere...

Funny how that works!

(03-12-2021 12:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  This is clearly a ploy to get rid of police. It has to be covered up with platitudes about alternative approaches to be sufficiently palatable to gain acceptance, but the objective is abundantly clear.

The underlying premise is that police departments coast to coast are hiring racists who want to take advantage of their uniform to murder blacks.

So clearly less cops = less murders.