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The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #1
The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
I have always been a little confused as to why many conservatives seem to hate AOC and the other squad members so much. NOT speaking of anyone around here, but I always thought part of it was because they were women of color. But beyond that ... 4 freshmen representatives have very little power in DC. AOC is super liberal ... but she represents a very liberal district, so isn’t that how democracy kind of works?

Now we have the conservative trio of Boebert, Greene, and Cawthorne that seem to garner a lot of headlines. I am curious about what people around here (across the political and ideological spectrum) think of them. It has recently come out that Greene supported the idea that the Parkland shooting was a false flag event among other things. Boebert and Greene have both posted some Qanon-supportive things. Cawthorne seems rambunctious and wants to dunk on the libs.

After thinking that conservatives were making way too much out of AOC and the Squad, I am a little surprised that I am so irritated by this new trio. Cawthorne doesn’t bother me quite as much since he doesn’t seem to be a conspiracy theorist.
01-21-2021 11:59 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #2
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-21-2021 11:59 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I have always been a little confused as to why many conservatives seem to hate AOC and the other squad members so much. NOT speaking of anyone around here, but I always thought part of it was because they were women of color.

Well, it might occur to you that one thing people would justifiably find irritating about that cadre is that their supporters are so quick to make the same casual and hateful assumption that you just made. When the twittersphere weaponizes a politician's skin color as a excuse to denounce anyone who disagrees with that politician as racist, it is not surprising that the disagree-ers would be strongly annoyed.

More generally, don't you dislike politicians who get lots of media attention while saying stupid things?
01-22-2021 02:02 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #3
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 02:02 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-21-2021 11:59 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I have always been a little confused as to why many conservatives seem to hate AOC and the other squad members so much. NOT speaking of anyone around here, but I always thought part of it was because they were women of color.

Well, it might occur to you that one thing people would justifiably find irritating about that cadre is that their supporters are so quick to make the same casual and hateful assumption that you just made. When the twittersphere weaponizes a politician's skin color as a excuse to denounce anyone who disagrees with that politician as racist, it is not surprising that the disagree-ers would be strongly annoyed.

More generally, don't you dislike politicians who get lots of media attention while saying stupid things?

I kind of like AOC personally, but the GND is just pie in the sky - the sort of unworkable but expensive thing the democrats love. Omar and Tlaib are racist.

AOC may be a freshman, but her words carry weight.

Your assumption is the same sort of superficial assumptions based on demographics that makes the Dem party so unattractive to me. Everything is based on race and/or sex.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2021 10:47 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-22-2021 10:28 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #4
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 02:02 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-21-2021 11:59 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I have always been a little confused as to why many conservatives seem to hate AOC and the other squad members so much. NOT speaking of anyone around here, but I always thought part of it was because they were women of color.

Well, it might occur to you that one thing people would justifiably find irritating about that cadre is that their supporters are so quick to make the same casual and hateful assumption that you just made. When the twittersphere weaponizes a politician's skin color as a excuse to denounce anyone who disagrees with that politician as racist, it is not surprising that the disagree-ers would be strongly annoyed.

More generally, don't you dislike politicians who get lots of media attention while saying stupid things?

I just don't understand the focus on 4 women of color. There were a new democratic representatives in 2018, but somehow these four rose to the top of the heap to get a lot of vitriol from Trump, along with many republicans and conservatives. Why not Gil Cisneros (CA-39), Ed Case (HI-1), or Steven Hosford (NV-4)?

I know AOC got a lot of media attention after defeating a longtime democratic congressman in the primary. But I don't get why the other 3 attracted so much negative attention.
01-22-2021 10:53 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #5
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 10:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Omar and Tlaib are racist.
...
Your assumption is the same sort of superficial assumptions based on demographics that makes the Dem party so unattractive to me. Everything is based on race and/or sex.

03-lmfao

Memory serves that they can still be very fine people if they are racist, so that is hardly a disqualifier for you (even if it was true). I'd love to hear your examples of their racism. And Omar's district is 67% white, so she has apparently convinced a lot of white people that she is not racist (if you are correct).
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2021 10:58 AM by mrbig.)
01-22-2021 10:54 AM
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Post: #6
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
This is not my position.... but this is what I've heard... 'The squad' is part of a movement called 'justice democrats'. At one point there was a vlogger who was putting forth an idea that this group was out there targeting specific members/districts in an effort to 'take over' the democratic party with 'tainted money' and force many republicans out... and that (iirc) one of the leaders (the main leader?) had some sort of close connection to AOC. (boyfriend?). This gave her a lot of attention from both sides... especially relative to her position.

I do not believe her race ever had anything to do with the opposition... but I do seem to recall that 'recruiting minorities, especially women' was allegedly part of the strategy the vlogger was trying to expose... because being a minority woman would provide some protection from policy attacks by being able to characterize them as rooted in misogyny, mansplaining or racism.
01-22-2021 11:03 AM
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Post: #7
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 10:54 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 10:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Omar and Tlaib are racist.
...
Your assumption is the same sort of superficial assumptions based on demographics that makes the Dem party so unattractive to me. Everything is based on race and/or sex.

03-lmfao

Memory serves that they can still be very fine people if they are racist, so that is hardly a disqualifier for you (even if it was true). I'd love to hear your examples of their racism. And Omar's district is 67% white, so she has apparently convinced a lot of white people that she is not racist (if you are correct).

You think the only racism is white on black?

Antisemitism

"American Muslim Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, America’s first Congresswoman of Palestinian descent, and IIhan Omar, a Muslim Congresswoman, earned spot number five for their “slander of Israel and Jews.” The Center wrote that Tlaib “launched her career in the US House of Representatives by slandering colleagues who supported a resolution seeking to weaken the anti-Israel, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement when she tweeted, ‘They forgot what country they represent.’ That resolution also called for sanctions on funders of the criminal Assad regime in Syria.” Tlaib also reportedly falsified history, declaring that she had “warm feelings about the way Palestinians ‘provided’ a homeland for Holocaust survivors… ‘I love the way my ancestors provided that…’”
The Center said that Omar “similarly invoked the dual loyalty canard by declaring that “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.” Omar “echoed a pernicious antisemitic theme about ‘Jewish money’ invoked by Hitler and other antisemites,” stating that “it’s all about the Benjamins baby.” She also wrote on Twitter that US politicians are controlled by AIPAC."
01-22-2021 11:04 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #8
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 10:54 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 10:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Omar and Tlaib are racist.
...
Your assumption is the same sort of superficial assumptions based on demographics that makes the Dem party so unattractive to me. Everything is based on race and/or sex.

03-lmfao

Memory serves that they can still be very fine people if they are racist, so that is hardly a disqualifier for you (even if it was true). I'd love to hear your examples of their racism. And Omar's district is 67% white, so she has apparently convinced a lot of white people that she is not racist (if you are correct).

You think the only racism is white on black?

Uhhh, I have zero clue in the world how you would think that is my belief.

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Antisemitism

"American Muslim Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, America’s first Congresswoman of Palestinian descent, and IIhan Omar, a Muslim Congresswoman, earned spot number five for their “slander of Israel and Jews.” The Center wrote that Tlaib “launched her career in the US House of Representatives by slandering colleagues who supported a resolution seeking to weaken the anti-Israel, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement when she tweeted, ‘They forgot what country they represent.’ That resolution also called for sanctions on funders of the criminal Assad regime in Syria.” Tlaib also reportedly falsified history, declaring that she had “warm feelings about the way Palestinians ‘provided’ a homeland for Holocaust survivors… ‘I love the way my ancestors provided that…’”
The Center said that Omar “similarly invoked the dual loyalty canard by declaring that “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.” Omar “echoed a pernicious antisemitic theme about ‘Jewish money’ invoked by Hitler and other antisemites,” stating that “it’s all about the Benjamins baby.” She also wrote on Twitter that US politicians are controlled by AIPAC."

Omar's comment about "the Benjamins" does sound bad and I'm pretty sure she apologized for it. But she was also talking about her belief that some politicians kowtow to AIPAC for financial reasons.

Nothing in your post looks to me like Omar or Tlaib every said anything negative about Jewish people generally, but rather that they attacked the current Israeli government and politicians in the US who support the current Israeli government.

Also, I am not sure anti-semitism is racism. Probably accurate to say it is rooted in racism or related to racism. But obviously there are many religious Jews who are not "racially" Jewish and many who are "racially" Jewish who are not religious Jews.
01-22-2021 11:49 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #9
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 11:49 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 10:54 AM)mrbig Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 10:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Omar and Tlaib are racist.
...
Your assumption is the same sort of superficial assumptions based on demographics that makes the Dem party so unattractive to me. Everything is based on race and/or sex.

03-lmfao

Memory serves that they can still be very fine people if they are racist, so that is hardly a disqualifier for you (even if it was true). I'd love to hear your examples of their racism. And Omar's district is 67% white, so she has apparently convinced a lot of white people that she is not racist (if you are correct).

You think the only racism is white on black?

Uhhh, I have zero clue in the world how you would think that is my belief.

Just because of your words, where you emphasize that white people voted for her, so how can she be racist.


Quote:
(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Antisemitism

"American Muslim Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, America’s first Congresswoman of Palestinian descent, and IIhan Omar, a Muslim Congresswoman, earned spot number five for their “slander of Israel and Jews.” The Center wrote that Tlaib “launched her career in the US House of Representatives by slandering colleagues who supported a resolution seeking to weaken the anti-Israel, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement when she tweeted, ‘They forgot what country they represent.’ That resolution also called for sanctions on funders of the criminal Assad regime in Syria.” Tlaib also reportedly falsified history, declaring that she had “warm feelings about the way Palestinians ‘provided’ a homeland for Holocaust survivors… ‘I love the way my ancestors provided that…’”
The Center said that Omar “similarly invoked the dual loyalty canard by declaring that “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.” Omar “echoed a pernicious antisemitic theme about ‘Jewish money’ invoked by Hitler and other antisemites,” stating that “it’s all about the Benjamins baby.” She also wrote on Twitter that US politicians are controlled by AIPAC."

Omar's comment about "the Benjamins" does sound bad and I'm pretty sure she apologized for it. But she was also talking about her belief that some politicians kowtow to AIPAC for financial reasons.

Nothing in your post looks to me like Omar or Tlaib every said anything negative about Jewish people generally, but rather that they attacked the current Israeli government and politicians in the US who support the current Israeli government.

Also, I am not sure anti-semitism is racism. Probably accurate to say it is rooted in racism or related to racism. But obviously there are many religious Jews who are not "racially" Jewish and many who are "racially" Jewish who are not religious Jews.

So now being against Jews is not racist. Good to know. Being Hispanic is also not considered a race, so anti-Hispanic actions are not racist either. Glad to hear Trump's border policies were not racist, as so many Dems have said, including AOC and the rest of the Squad.

The Wiesenthal Center rated this the 5th worst incident of antisemitism.
Tell you what, I will continue to consider these antisemites as racists, and you can continue to consider them pure. Clearly, to you, the only reason to be negative toward them is skin color.

You do bring up a good point about Judaism, a question I have have asked here many times. Is being Jewish a racial thing or a religious thing? Certainly Hitler thought it was racial, and apparently Omar/Tlaib think the same, since they do not make any difference between religious Jews and secular Jews. Just those damn Israelis.

Yes, I think most anti-Israeli sentiment is based on race/ethnicity/religion. It fits under the general umbrella of discrimination, like being gay or Hispanic or tranny.
Maybe you can explain to me how that is wrong.


I think Israel has been one of the few allies we have in the Middle East, and now the Biden Admin wants to embrace Iran over them. Trump was making some headway toward Middle East peace, and now I think that is to be undone. But Biden is nice to handicapped journalists - when he notices.
01-22-2021 12:10 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #10
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 12:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just because of your words, where you emphasize that white people voted for her, so how can she be racist.

Me suggesting that someone is probably not dark-on-white racist because a bunch of whites voted for her is not at all the same thing as suggesting that dark-on-white is the "only racism" (your phrase, not mine).

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So now being against Jews is not racist. Good to know.

That is not what I wrote.

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Being Hispanic is also not considered a race, so anti-Hispanic actions are not racist either.

I agree that it is not entirely technically clear whether being virulently anti-hispanic is a form of racism. But it is at least less complicated than anti-Semitism, as "Jewish" can refer to an ethnicity or religion. The same is not true of "hispanic".

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The Wiesenthal Center rated this the 5th worst incident of antisemitism.

The Wiesenthal Center is explicitly pro-Israel. Not clear to me how much their "pro-Israel" means they support the current government of Israel as compared to country of Israel. If they explicitly support the current Israeli government, then their evaluation of Tlaib's and Omar's criticisms of the current Israeli government might be clouding their evaluation of whether Tlaib's and Omar's criticisms were actually anti-Semitic or racist.

The distinction should be clear, as I know you support the country of the United States even if you are not a big fan of the current government in the United States. My point is that being outspoken against the current Israeli government doesn't make them any more anti-Semitic than you being outspoken against the current American government would make you a traitor.

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Tell you what, I will continue to consider these antisemites as racists, and you can continue to consider them pure.

Just because I do not think it has been demonstrated that they are racists doesn't mean I think they are "pure". Also ... maybe use a word other than "pure" when discussing anti-Semitism?

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Yes, I think most anti-Israeli sentiment is based on race/ethnicity/religion. It fits under the general umbrella of discrimination, like being gay or Hispanic or tranny.
Maybe you can explain to me how that is wrong.

Many people think the current Israeli government is engaging in human rights violations in the way is pushing settlements and in the treatment of non-Jews in Israel (primarily Muslims, but also Christians). About 10 years ago at our old church, they put on a program about the persecution of Christians in Israel.

(01-22-2021 11:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think Israel has been one of the few allies we have in the Middle East, and now the Biden Admin wants to embrace Iran over them. Trump was making some headway toward Middle East peace, and now I think that is to be undone. But Biden is nice to handicapped journalists - when he notices.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. I don't really want to sidetrack this thread as I think we are already getting too far afoot (and I am curious what you think of Boebert, Greene, and Cawthorn). But I doubt you would find much factual support for the idea that Biden wants to "embrace Iran over [Israel]" or that Trump made "headway toward Middle East peace."
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2021 12:41 PM by mrbig.)
01-22-2021 12:36 PM
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Post: #11
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 12:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think Israel has been one of the few allies we have in the Middle East, and now the Biden Admin wants to embrace Iran over them. Trump was making some headway toward Middle East peace, and now I think that is to be undone. But Biden is nice to handicapped journalists - when he notices.

The Mideast is really a four-cornered proposition--Iran (ancient imperial overlord, Aryan, Shia), Israel (Semitic, Jewish), the Arab states (Semitic, Sunni), and Turkey (former imperial overlord, basically secular).

I think Zeihan thinks Turkey is going to prevail, as did his old boss George Friedman, but I haven't seen anything from him since Erdogan started going off the reservation so badly, so I'm not sure where he comes down today. I think both Iran (Farsi for, "empire of the Aryans") and Turkey (return to the Ottoman Empire) retain significant imperial ambitions which will inevitably clash. When I was over there, the Arabs used to tell us that they would unite with Israel to oppose either Iran's or Turkey's imperialism ("My brother and I will fight my cousin my cousin and I will fight the world, and Isaac and Ishmael were brothers").

Whatever happens, it's pretty clear that we have played our hand very poorly over there through the years. When I was there in the early 1970s, the Muslims believed that Israel was our client state, and therefore did not trust the State Department. Most of the diplomatic stuff was actually handled by the oil companies--if you were in Saudi and wanted to visit the USA, you didn't go to an embassy or consulate to get your visa, you went to the Aramco office. That system actually worked pretty well, but after the Brits left in 1971 and then the 1973 war, that was off the board, and State has pretty well screwed the pooch repeatedly.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2021 12:58 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-22-2021 12:44 PM
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InterestedX Offline
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Post: #12
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
I don't have much time for extremism on either side.

"The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

Boebert, Greene and Cawthorn are just awful people who were elected as Trumpremora.
01-22-2021 12:47 PM
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Post: #13
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  I don't have much time for extremism on either side.

"The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

Boebert, Greene and Cawthorn are just awful people who were elected as Trumpremora.

From what I've read, I kinda get the Boebert appeal. But Greene and Cawthorn? Not at all.

Greene really believes some whacky **** that should be immediately disqualifying for someone in a leadership positions.

And Cawthorn appears to be incredibly immature for someone being elected to the House - from how he handled himself during his post-secondary time (portrayed himself as being headed to the Naval Academy before his accident, even though he had already been rejected; and he didn't finish any sort of post-high school education [school, vocational training, etc.]), he seemingly has lied about having a job (reported no income on the incoming financial disclosure), and he appears to only be interested in "owning the libs" (see post-election tweet).
01-22-2021 01:10 PM
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Post: #14
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  I don't have much time for extremism on either side.

"The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

Boebert, Greene and Cawthorn are just awful people who were elected as Trumpremora.

The Squad did a masterful job of simply portraying any attack as sexist and racist. Democrats. QED.

As an example, simply note bigs semi-automatic conversion to that standard without regard at all to any policies they are vocal on. Maybe perhaps that is why george so politely rejoined him on that.

<Parameter=party> <democrat>
>default settings> <opposition = 'racist,'sexist' >
</default>
</party>
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2021 01:16 PM by tanqtonic.)
01-22-2021 01:11 PM
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Post: #15
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 01:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  I don't have much time for extremism on either side.

"The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

Boebert, Greene and Cawthorn are just awful people who were elected as Trumpremora.

The Squad did a masterful job of simply portraying any attack as sexist and racist. Democrats. QED.

As an example, simply note bigs semi-automatic conversion to that standard without regard at all to any policies they are vocal on. Maybe perhaps that is why george so politely rejoined him on that.

<Parameter=party> <democrat>
>default settings> <opposition = 'racist,'sexist' >
</default>
</party>

I don't know what to chalk it up to, but the party that is trying to frame itself as the part of blue collar workers sure likes to criticize AOC's working background as a bartender...
01-22-2021 01:35 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
01-22-2021 01:54 PM
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Post: #17
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 01:10 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  I don't have much time for extremism on either side.

"The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

Boebert, Greene and Cawthorn are just awful people who were elected as Trumpremora.

From what I've read, I kinda get the Boebert appeal. But Greene and Cawthorn? Not at all.

Greene really believes some whacky **** that should be immediately disqualifying for someone in a leadership positions.

And Cawthorn appears to be incredibly immature for someone being elected to the House - from how he handled himself during his post-secondary time (portrayed himself as being headed to the Naval Academy before his accident, even though he had already been rejected; and he didn't finish any sort of post-high school education [school, vocational training, etc.]), he seemingly has lied about having a job (reported no income on the incoming financial disclosure), and he appears to only be interested in "owning the libs" (see post-election tweet).

Cawthorn seems awful. Agree that his background shows nothing special to warrant becoming a congressman at such a young age. I will hand it to him, though, that he is playing his version of the political game well. It's just gross to observe. Perhaps he'll become the darling of the Trump voting bloc (although I still think Don Jr is going to be their guy). Have fun with those two, Trumpists....
01-22-2021 04:31 PM
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RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 10:54 AM)mrbig Wrote:  And Omar's district is 67% white, so she has apparently convinced a lot of white people that she is not racist (if you are correct).

The result may stem more from the voters' racism than her own.
01-22-2021 05:55 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #19
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  I don't have much time for extremism on either side.

Which mean you agree the these particular politicians warrant criticism.

(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  "The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

As a practical matter, are you sure it is possible to criticize those particular politicians without being so labeled?
01-22-2021 06:00 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #20
RE: The Squad versus Reps Greene, Boebert, and Cawthorne
(01-22-2021 06:00 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-22-2021 12:47 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  "The Squad" did a masterful job of attracting attacks that made it possible to label their attackers as sexist and racist.

As a practical matter, are you sure it is possible to criticize those particular politicians without being so labeled?

Agree. I think Big's original post illustrates this.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2021 06:57 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-22-2021 06:43 PM
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