(01-15-2021 02:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 11:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 08:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 07:43 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 03:19 AM)Todor Wrote:  The NCAA says you can't be independent in basketball? Got a link to that rule?

There's no such rule.

Being an independent means you have no chance for an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament. Then again, if Chicago State joins a conference they practically have no chance for an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament anyway.

The chance of an NCAA Tournament bid isn’t that important.

However, the guaranteed annual NCAA Tournament revenue distribution that comes from being a part of conference would certainly be important, especially for a low revenue athletic department. That’s a significant issue with being independent in basketball.

It isn't that much money they'd miss out on. Money games could easily compensate.

There are currently about 350 Division I schools and exactly zero of them compete in Division I without a conference. Why is that?

Sure, Chicago State could play 4 or 5 more money games a year than they already do, and that covers a school's usual March Madness payout from a one-bid conference. But whether they could or would play 15 money games per season instead of the 10 or so they usually play is a comparatively minor issue.

A much larger issue is: Would they have any home games at all as an independent basketball team? In 2018-19, for example, Chicago State's only non-conference home games were two games against non-Division I teams. (Source: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch...edule.html ) Playing 25 or more road games per year isn't feasible. For that matter, who's going to play them at all once conference play is in full swing in January?

And, given that a school can't be in Division I if men's basketball is their only varsity sport, how do they schedule for and maintain all of their other sports without conference membership?

(01-15-2021 08:11 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 02:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 11:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 08:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 07:43 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  There's no such rule.

Being an independent means you have no chance for an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament. Then again, if Chicago State joins a conference they practically have no chance for an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament anyway.

The chance of an NCAA Tournament bid isn’t that important.

However, the guaranteed annual NCAA Tournament revenue distribution that comes from being a part of conference would certainly be important, especially for a low revenue athletic department. That’s a significant issue with being independent in basketball.

It isn't that much money they'd miss out on. Money games could easily compensate.

There are currently about 350 Division I schools and exactly zero of them compete in Division I without a conference. Why is that?

Sure, Chicago State could play 4 or 5 more money games a year than they already do, and that covers a school's usual March Madness payout from a one-bid conference. But whether they could or would play 15 money games per season instead of the 10 or so they usually play is a comparatively minor issue.

A much larger issue is: Would they have any home games at all as an independent basketball team? In 2018-19, for example, Chicago State's only non-conference home games were two games against non-Division I teams. (Source: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch...edule.html ) Playing 25 or more road games per year isn't feasible. For that matter, who's going to play them at all once conference play is in full swing in January?

And, given that a school can't be in Division I if men's basketball is their only varsity sport, how do they schedule for and maintain all of their other sports without conference membership?

One of those non-conference home games was vs NAIA Trinity Christian, a mediocre team by NAIA standards, and Chicago State barely won.

(01-15-2021 08:11 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 02:09 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 11:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 08:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-15-2021 07:43 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  There's no such rule.

Being an independent means you have no chance for an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament. Then again, if Chicago State joins a conference they practically have no chance for an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament anyway.

The chance of an NCAA Tournament bid isn’t that important.

However, the guaranteed annual NCAA Tournament revenue distribution that comes from being a part of conference would certainly be important, especially for a low revenue athletic department. That’s a significant issue with being independent in basketball.

It isn't that much money they'd miss out on. Money games could easily compensate.

There are currently about 350 Division I schools and exactly zero of them compete in Division I without a conference. Why is that?

Sure, Chicago State could play 4 or 5 more money games a year than they already do, and that covers a school's usual March Madness payout from a one-bid conference. But whether they could or would play 15 money games per season instead of the 10 or so they usually play is a comparatively minor issue.

A much larger issue is: Would they have any home games at all as an independent basketball team? In 2018-19, for example, Chicago State's only non-conference home games were two games against non-Division I teams. (Source: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/sch...edule.html ) Playing 25 or more road games per year isn't feasible. For that matter, who's going to play them at all once conference play is in full swing in January?

And, given that a school can't be in Division I if men's basketball is their only varsity sport, how do they schedule for and maintain all of their other sports without conference membership?

It isn't the simplest way to run a program, but its not nearly as difficult as you're making it seem. Its been done before by many, including Chicago State.

There literally is nobody to schedule in Basketball January thru March as an Independent. Before Chicago State was in the WAC they were part of the Great West, which was really just a scheduling arrangement for orphans (Chicago State, New Jersey Tech, Utah Valley, North Dakota, Southern Utah, Houston Baptist, Texas-Pan American). But they are all in conferences now, and there is nobody to play those 10 weeks. And Chicago State lacks money to buys games, and nobody will want to schedule them as they would kill their NET.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days. Chicago State will have to drop down to D-II or NAIA to find opponents. They might try Independent D-I for a year or two but it's inevitable they fail.

(01-16-2021 03:28 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There literally is nobody to schedule in Basketball January thru March as an Independent. Before Chicago State was in the WAC they were part of the Great West, which was really just a scheduling arrangement for orphans (Chicago State, New Jersey Tech, Utah Valley, North Dakota, Southern Utah, Houston Baptist, Texas-Pan American). But they are all in conferences now, and there is nobody to play those 10 weeks. And Chicago State lacks money to buys games, and nobody will want to schedule them as they would kill their NET.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days. Chicago State will have to drop down to D-II or NAIA to find opponents. They might try Independent D-I for a year or two but it's inevitable they fail.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days? Nobody to schedule for 10 weeks? Kill their Net? Are you kidding? You can't be serious. There are around 10-12 conferences with odd numbers of members. That means twice a week, somebody in all of those conferences doesn't have a game. Just say 10:conferences, twice a week, for over 2 months. And you think there isn't even 1 chance to schedule a game in there? Who wants an extra home game on their schedule for more gate revenue? Everybody!

They'll get games. They'll even get some home games. Since college hoops has existed schools have scheduled non conference games in the middle of their conference season a for a wide variety of reasons. All of their games dont have to be against D1 opponents. There are few schools that don't schedule non D1 opponents most years.

If they end up leaving D1, it won't be because staff is too lazy to build a schedule. It will be because the school can't afford athletics, or wants to take some time off to reassess their institutional goals, or they want a hard reset, or for reasons OTHER than the basketball schedule.

NJIT pulled of independence for a couple seasons after the Great West disbanded.

If I were in a decision making position at Chicago State I would vote to do away with athletics entirely and concentrate on surviving as an academic institution.

(01-16-2021 04:19 AM)Todor Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 03:28 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There literally is nobody to schedule in Basketball January thru March as an Independent. Before Chicago State was in the WAC they were part of the Great West, which was really just a scheduling arrangement for orphans (Chicago State, New Jersey Tech, Utah Valley, North Dakota, Southern Utah, Houston Baptist, Texas-Pan American). But they are all in conferences now, and there is nobody to play those 10 weeks. And Chicago State lacks money to buys games, and nobody will want to schedule them as they would kill their NET.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days. Chicago State will have to drop down to D-II or NAIA to find opponents. They might try Independent D-I for a year or two but it's inevitable they fail.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days? Nobody to schedule for 10 weeks? Kill their Net? Are you kidding? You can't be serious. There are around 10-12 conferences with odd numbers of members. That means twice a week, somebody in all of those conferences doesn't have a game. Just say 10:conferences, twice a week, for over 2 months. And you think there isn't even 1 chance to schedule a game in there? Who wants an extra home game on their schedule for more gate revenue? Everybody!

They'll get games. They'll even get some home games. Since college hoops has existed schools have scheduled non conference games in the middle of their conference season a for a wide variety of reasons. All of their games dont have to be against D1 opponents. There are few schools that don't schedule non D1 opponents most years.

If they end up leaving D1, it won't be because staff is too lazy to build a schedule. It will be because the school can't afford athletics, or wants to take some time off to reassess their institutional goals, or they want a hard reset, or for reasons OTHER than the basketball schedule.

Pretty much agree with this. Especially around Chicago. Tons of basketball teams in the Midwest. Men's basketball can be a pretty good revenue generator using this model. It will take some work, but it would be worth it.

(01-16-2021 09:08 AM)ken d Wrote:  If I were in a decision making position at Chicago State I would vote to do away with athletics entirely and concentrate on surviving as an academic institution.

At this point, the federal grant money for the athletes who aren’t on full scholarships are partly what’s keeping the school afloat.

I agree with you though—a D1 athletic program is not appropriate for a school with their profile.

Found a video that summarizes the options pretty well. Search “Chicago St leaves WAC” on YouTube.

(01-16-2021 09:00 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  NJIT pulled of independence for a couple seasons after the Great West disbanded.

Yeah. They played more than half their seasons before 1/1, and typically had about 4 non-D1 games to round out the thick of conference season, especially in February. They also played a MEAC-lite schedule after the 1/1 point, typically 3-4 games. Now with MEAC really in a world of hurt, I think CSU can emulate this model.

But, what is a bit of a challenge is how NJIT filled out the rest of the gaps. NJIT had a ton of help from AmEast schools (7 games in both 2013/14 and 2014/15). We know all about that relationship. They also got a rub from Patriot and Ivy schools.

Chicago State better hope it has strong relationships with OVC, Summit, and Horizon schools to fill in the gaps. There are going to be conferences and schools who won't sniff them. While it could really load up on non-D1 games, this isn't practical for a D1 program. And Chicago State is going to have to spend money to make this work. I know CSU did this before, but this isn't 10-15 years ago. Remind me again about Chicago State's finances?

(01-16-2021 11:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Found a video that summarizes the options pretty well. Search “Chicago St leaves WAC” on YouTube.

I couldn’t find anything when searching that. You know you can copy the link of something and post it here right?

(01-16-2021 01:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 11:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Found a video that summarizes the options pretty well. Search “Chicago St leaves WAC” on YouTube.

I couldn’t find anything when searching that. You know you can copy the link of something and post it here right?

I link things all the time. If I don’t link something, it’s because the paste option quit working on my phone when posting. My phone does that sometimes.

Despite Chicago State's issues, they have an awesome looking basketball venue. That place looks like it would be ROCKING if it was full. Wish we could somehow buy it and move it up to UND.

https://www.gocsucougars.com/common/cont...D04481.jpg

The solution for them is simple, though. They need to move to a non-scholarship model and use sports participation to drive school attendance numbers up. ADD sports, add football, drive up attendance that way, and they would still have a smaller athletics budget than they do now at the D1 level. Tons of private D3 schools do this. Stop spending money like a public school.

(01-16-2021 01:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 01:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 11:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Found a video that summarizes the options pretty well. Search “Chicago St leaves WAC” on YouTube.

I couldn’t find anything when searching that. You know you can copy the link of something and post it here right?

I link things all the time. If I don’t link something, it’s because the paste option quit working on my phone when posting. My phone does that sometimes.

Wow, thanks. Excellent video and research. If only “Dave” would do the same for all his “predictions”. “Oh, here’s a 1,200 person private school in Rhode Island. They played an exhibition game versus Duke in 1935. They would be perfect for FBS with the right donor and stadium upgrade. I will go post some trash on CSNBBs about them being a candidate for the AAC, NEC, and America East.”

(01-16-2021 01:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 01:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 11:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Found a video that summarizes the options pretty well. Search “Chicago St leaves WAC” on YouTube.

I couldn’t find anything when searching that. You know you can copy the link of something and post it here right?

I link things all the time. If I don’t link something, it’s because the paste option quit working on my phone when posting. My phone does that sometimes.

Good video. I've mentioned it a few times here but the narrator failed to state that the GLVC would require Chicago State to add baseball and softball. Those are two of the sports the conference requires along with m+w basketball, m+w soccer, and w volleyball.

(01-16-2021 02:07 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 01:45 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 01:05 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 11:45 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Found a video that summarizes the options pretty well. Search “Chicago St leaves WAC” on YouTube.

I couldn’t find anything when searching that. You know you can copy the link of something and post it here right?

I link things all the time. If I don’t link something, it’s because the paste option quit working on my phone when posting. My phone does that sometimes.

Wow, thanks. Excellent video and research. If only “Dave” would do the same for all his “predictions”. “Oh, here’s a 1,200 person private school in Rhode Island. They played an exhibition game versus Duke in 1935. They would be perfect for FBS with the right donor and stadium upgrade. I will go post some trash on CSNBBs about them being a candidate for the AAC, NEC, and America East.”

A problem with GLVC is that Indianapolis is looking to moving for another conference, Lindenwood and Southern Indiana are flight risks to D1, 5 schools are in financial crisis and the 2 Missouri schools could become replacement schools if some members of the MIAA gets invited to D1. The rest might wind up merging with MIAA or another conference and there be no more room for Chicago State.

As Frank said, there's no NCAA basketball distribution if you aren't in a conference. That is virtually the only reason 50-100 of these schools are Division I.

The landscape for Independents is different than 10 years ago. There were a lot of schools in the Great West or Independent. Today there are none.

As people have been saying, they need help from local conferences, especially Illinois schools. But their NET has been in the 320-350 range for several years running. No coach wants to schedule a school that hurts their NET and no conference will be happy with members scheduling them and hurting their conference ranking. But that is the competitive angle.

The financial is far worse. If you look at USAToday, you see the complete lack of ticket sale and donation revenue; looks like one large one time donation of $90K to sports a couple years ago (2017) and literally bake sale level donations for all the other years; also gate is dwarfed by several local high schools in my area that charge $3 for entry and fill 1,000 adults on their side of the gym every conference game. Lack of support for the program is the real killer.


Chicago State has something lover 98% of their students on state grants, meaning the revenue for the school is pretty much fixed by enrollment and state per student funding. The endowment was exhausted a few years back and it's hand to mouth existence. Enrollment dropped from 3,000 full time undergrads when they joined the WAC to 1278 (numbers a year old from DoE ... no idea what CoVid-19 impact, but probably the number is down a bit more). Since the money per student is fixed, that means there is no revenue to grow the budget. As noted above their budget is maybe 50% of the minimum for the MEAC (which is significantly lower than that of the WAC). We are here talking about operating expenses. But facilities need a lot of work too, and that is where the lack of donations and gate come in.

Another revenue issue as an Independent will be the loss of conference distributions. The WAC is not a big payout conference, but certainly they will lose a good chunk of their NCAA distributions, since they will only be eligible for individual school distributions, not those through conferences. This means they will have even less money to work with. They just cannot afford to buy home games.

It's just not sensible nor practical to be a D-I Independent. At D-II they can Jettison 4 sports and play in a regional conference if one will take them. More sensible would be the NAIA Chicagoland, where schools have similar budgets, pay coaches similar low scales, and travel is all local. Again they can drop some sports.

(01-16-2021 04:19 AM)Todor Wrote:  

(01-16-2021 03:28 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There literally is nobody to schedule in Basketball January thru March as an Independent. Before Chicago State was in the WAC they were part of the Great West, which was really just a scheduling arrangement for orphans (Chicago State, New Jersey Tech, Utah Valley, North Dakota, Southern Utah, Houston Baptist, Texas-Pan American). But they are all in conferences now, and there is nobody to play those 10 weeks. And Chicago State lacks money to buys games, and nobody will want to schedule them as they would kill their NET.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days. Chicago State will have to drop down to D-II or NAIA to find opponents. They might try Independent D-I for a year or two but it's inevitable they fail.

Independent Basketball is impossible these days? Nobody to schedule for 10 weeks? Kill their Net? Are you kidding? You can't be serious. There are around 10-12 conferences with odd numbers of members. That means twice a week, somebody in all of those conferences doesn't have a game. Just say 10:conferences, twice a week, for over 2 months. And you think there isn't even 1 chance to schedule a game in there? Who wants an extra home game on their schedule for more gate revenue? Everybody!

They'll get games. They'll even get some home games. Since college hoops has existed schools have scheduled non conference games in the middle of their conference season a for a wide variety of reasons. All of their games dont have to be against D1 opponents. There are few schools that don't schedule non D1 opponents most years.

If they end up leaving D1, it won't be because staff is too lazy to build a schedule. It will be because the school can't afford athletics, or wants to take some time off to reassess their institutional goals, or they want a hard reset, or for reasons OTHER than the basketball schedule.

How many of those conferences with odd numbers of members were playing non-conference games in January and February last season? The MAAC had eleven member last year and those schools played zero non-conference games after the calendar turned to 2020. Schools generally prefer an open date in the second half of the season to pushing back a non-conference game.

It might be possible for them to cobble together a front-loaded schedule with some D-II games and whoever will play them filling the back half of the schedule...but it's not going to be anything that allows them to build a program.