For those liars who falsely claim there is no Evidence of any election Fraud, HERE IS THE EVIDENCE (continuously updated site) for all to see keeping track of Evidence of the massive and country-wide Fraud in the 2020 Election:

https://hereistheevidence.com/

click to link their page with Facts, Charts and comparison graphs so you can see how this compares and examine the truth of what has been gathered so far for yourself: https://hereistheevidence.com/election-2020/stats/


also, Maps and charts showing, surprise! England (UK), Spain, Portugal and several other European countries REQUIRE PHOTO ID for their elections! (The horror! They must all be raciss!)

and much, much MORE!

You guys aren't going to love this response... but I glanced at the website and this level of attention to detail

Quote:8. A court in Arizon had two handwriting expert witnesses evaluated the signatures on 100 random absentee ballots.

9. The Republican expert witness found 6% of signatures on the 100 ballots where problematic.

10. The Democrat expert witness found 9% of signatures on the 100 ballots where problematic.

does not make me feel great about their ability to fact-check. Did they somehow find my 7 y/o son and ask him to write the copy?

I can only hope that there interpretation of the data was more focused then they're writing.

The amount of actual admissible Evidence gathered so far is astounding. The website takes a while to load due to their being so incredibly much Evidence gathered so far. The Fraud is so widespread, that just inputting the Evidence leads to occasional typing errors. Like the posters on this site, especially when typing fast, The purpose of the site is not to be a grammatical guidebook; but how about commenting on the sheer mountain of actual Evidence gathered instead of talking points from your programmers?

(12-09-2020 09:34 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  The amount of actual admissible Evidence gathered so far is astounding. The website takes a while to load due to their being so incredibly much Evidence gathered so far. The Fraud is so widespread, that just inputting the Evidence leads to occasional typing errors. Like the posters on this site, especially when typing fast, The purpose of the site is not to be a grammatical guidebook; but how about commenting on the sheer mountain of actual Evidence gathered instead of talking points from your programmers?

Legit. One of the best lines in the history of the Parliament. I stand in awe, sir.

still ignoring the Evidence. typical ignorant leftist trope.

The “facts” seem to be really light on the details, and there aren’t sources backing up the claims to provide more details.

For example, it says in Arizona that handwriting witness found 6 to 9% of signatures (out of 100 to be problematic). First, what does problematic mean? Does that definition mean that they would be thrown out? Second, it then looks like those percentages we extrapolated to some part of the voting pool to argue that Biden’s winning margin would have been undone if those ballots were thrown out. We don’t know what part of the voting population those %s were applied to, if it’s appropriate to do that, and if that same method was applied to Republican votes.

And that is just one of the items brought up.

Another one is that they don’t provide the source for the rejection “rates” between 2018 and 2020. Plus, they present a “rate” as a total number of rejected ballots, and not as a rate, which makes me wonder if they are actually presenting two different numbers - total rejections in 2018 vs a rejection per X votes in 2020.

I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

You last few comments are what make me chuckle the most at the idea of election fraud on scale to change outcomes. After 2018, where we saw significant Dem gains down ballot, why would this dastardly plan intentionally lose down ballot elections and not flip the Senate?

It makes no sense - if you're going to rig an election, rig it! Give Dems clear control of each part of the federal government and at least more control of state and local government.

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

I think you explain in your own post why the down ticket races did not do as well as the presidential race - the Democrats made it all about Trump and succeeded in not making it about policy or party.

The percentage thing is misleading. I don't think it was so much people changing their minds about trump as it was the democrats did well in turning out demographic groups(you mention young people and black women) that would vote Democrat. The record turnout displays that. So, to use a generic example, if in 2016 Trump got 5100 votes out of 10,000, and in the same district in 2020 Trump got 5400 out of 11,500, of course the percentages are going to go down, even as supporters go up. The difference is that the Dems got out a lot of voters who are safe Democrats but who stayed home in 2016.

By making it about Trump, you developed a lot of voters like my nephew who voted Biden but then voted GOP the rest of the way. His preferred person for prez in 2024 is Dan Crenshaw. So a lot of your 2020 Dem votes, like his, will fade away in 2024 when you don't have the Trump bogeyman to run against or 4 years to poison the well with lies and innuendo.

In any case, I don't think Biden will run again in 2024, primarily because he won't be President any more - Harris will. JMHO. But it makes strategic sense not to run an elderly white man who will be having increasing gaffes and instead run an incumbent black woman. I think we will finally see actual use of the 25th amendment. Again, JMHO. Time will tell.

Midterms do usually run against the party of the WH, so I am looking forward to regaining control of the House in 2022 as well as expanding the majority in the Senate. I have a person in mind to support in 2024, should I still be here. He is one of the ones I supported in 2016 against Trump.

I think yours is a Pyrrhic victory.

I’m curious to hear what the lawyers in our group (as well as the armchair statisticians) think about the quality of evidence presented on this website.

(12-10-2020 09:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

I think you explain in your own post why the down ticket races did not do as well as the presidential race - the Democrats made it all about Trump and succeeded in not making it about policy or party.

The percentage thing is misleading. I don't think it was so much people changing their minds about trump as it was the democrats did well in turning out demographic groups(you mention young people and black women) that would vote Democrat. The record turnout displays that. So, to use a generic example, if in 2016 Trump got 5100 votes out of 10,000, and in the same district in 2020 Trump got 5400 out of 11,500, of course the percentages are going to go down, even as supporters go up. The difference is that the Dems got out a lot of voters who are safe Democrats but who stayed home in 2016.

By making it about Trump, you developed a lot of voters like my nephew who voted Biden but then voted GOP the rest of the way. His preferred person for prez in 2024 is Dan Crenshaw. So a lot of your 2020 Dem votes, like his, will fade away in 2024 when you don't have the Trump bogeyman to run against or 4 years to poison the well with lies and innuendo.

In any case, I don't think Biden will run again in 2024, primarily because he won't be President any more - Harris will. JMHO. But it makes strategic sense not to run an elderly white man who will be having increasing gaffes and instead run an incumbent black woman. I think we will finally see actual use of the 25th amendment. Again, JMHO. Time will tell.

Midterms do usually run against the party of the WH, so I am looking forward to regaining control of the House in 2022 as well as expanding the majority in the Senate. I have a person in mind to support in 2024, should I still be here. He is one of the ones I supported in 2016 against Trump.

I think yours is a Pyrrhic victory.

I am in general agreement with your post about voter turnout.

Your comment also just explained why the results are not indicative of fraud.

(12-10-2020 09:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

I think you explain in your own post why the down ticket races did not do as well as the presidential race - the Democrats made it all about Trump and succeeded in not making it about policy or party.

The percentage thing is misleading. I don't think it was so much people changing their minds about trump as it was the democrats did well in turning out demographic groups(you mention young people and black women) that would vote Democrat. The record turnout displays that. So, to use a generic example, if in 2016 Trump got 5100 votes out of 10,000, and in the same district in 2020 Trump got 5400 out of 11,500, of course the percentages are going to go down, even as supporters go up. The difference is that the Dems got out a lot of voters who are safe Democrats but who stayed home in 2016.

By making it about Trump, you developed a lot of voters like my nephew who voted Biden but then voted GOP the rest of the way. His preferred person for prez in 2024 is Dan Crenshaw. So a lot of your 2020 Dem votes, like his, will fade away in 2024 when you don't have the Trump bogeyman to run against or 4 years to poison the well with lies and innuendo.

In any case, I don't think Biden will run again in 2024, primarily because he won't be President any more - Harris will. JMHO. But it makes strategic sense not to run an elderly white man who will be having increasing gaffes and instead run an incumbent black woman. I think we will finally see actual use of the 25th amendment. Again, JMHO. Time will tell.

Midterms do usually run against the party of the WH, so I am looking forward to regaining control of the House in 2022 as well as expanding the majority in the Senate. I have a person in mind to support in 2024, should I still be here. He is one of the ones I supported in 2016 against Trump.

I think yours is a Pyrrhic victory.

I am in general agreement with your post about voter turnout.

Your comment also just explained why the results are not indicative of fraud.

Nobody here has asked me my opinion of fraud.

Although there were instances here and there of questionable actions and methods, I think nothing sufficient will be found in time to materially change the result that has been announced. Whether Trump was voted out or counted out, Biden will be the next president, for a while.

I think of much more importance was the four year campaign of lies and innuendo that painted and polarized people's opinions.

In 2024, that won't work. Not enough time.

(12-10-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

I think you explain in your own post why the down ticket races did not do as well as the presidential race - the Democrats made it all about Trump and succeeded in not making it about policy or party.

The percentage thing is misleading. I don't think it was so much people changing their minds about trump as it was the democrats did well in turning out demographic groups(you mention young people and black women) that would vote Democrat. The record turnout displays that. So, to use a generic example, if in 2016 Trump got 5100 votes out of 10,000, and in the same district in 2020 Trump got 5400 out of 11,500, of course the percentages are going to go down, even as supporters go up. The difference is that the Dems got out a lot of voters who are safe Democrats but who stayed home in 2016.

By making it about Trump, you developed a lot of voters like my nephew who voted Biden but then voted GOP the rest of the way. His preferred person for prez in 2024 is Dan Crenshaw. So a lot of your 2020 Dem votes, like his, will fade away in 2024 when you don't have the Trump bogeyman to run against or 4 years to poison the well with lies and innuendo.

In any case, I don't think Biden will run again in 2024, primarily because he won't be President any more - Harris will. JMHO. But it makes strategic sense not to run an elderly white man who will be having increasing gaffes and instead run an incumbent black woman. I think we will finally see actual use of the 25th amendment. Again, JMHO. Time will tell.

Midterms do usually run against the party of the WH, so I am looking forward to regaining control of the House in 2022 as well as expanding the majority in the Senate. I have a person in mind to support in 2024, should I still be here. He is one of the ones I supported in 2016 against Trump.

I think yours is a Pyrrhic victory.

I am in general agreement with your post about voter turnout.

Your comment also just explained why the results are not indicative of fraud.

Nobody here has asked me my opinion of fraud.

Although there were instances here and there of questionable actions and methods, I think nothing sufficient will be found in time to materially change the result that has been announced. Whether Trump was voted out or counted out, Biden will be the next president, for a while.

I think of much more importance was the four year campaign of lies and innuendo that painted and polarized people's opinions.

In 2024, that won't work. Not enough time.

Was not implying you were arguing for or against fraud - sorry if it came across that way.

I was adding a comment about how your rational explanation for the results (Biden winning, but down ballot Reps winning) helps explain why they are not indicative of fraud.

(12-10-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

I think you explain in your own post why the down ticket races did not do as well as the presidential race - the Democrats made it all about Trump and succeeded in not making it about policy or party.

The percentage thing is misleading. I don't think it was so much people changing their minds about trump as it was the democrats did well in turning out demographic groups(you mention young people and black women) that would vote Democrat. The record turnout displays that. So, to use a generic example, if in 2016 Trump got 5100 votes out of 10,000, and in the same district in 2020 Trump got 5400 out of 11,500, of course the percentages are going to go down, even as supporters go up. The difference is that the Dems got out a lot of voters who are safe Democrats but who stayed home in 2016.

By making it about Trump, you developed a lot of voters like my nephew who voted Biden but then voted GOP the rest of the way. His preferred person for prez in 2024 is Dan Crenshaw. So a lot of your 2020 Dem votes, like his, will fade away in 2024 when you don't have the Trump bogeyman to run against or 4 years to poison the well with lies and innuendo.

In any case, I don't think Biden will run again in 2024, primarily because he won't be President any more - Harris will. JMHO. But it makes strategic sense not to run an elderly white man who will be having increasing gaffes and instead run an incumbent black woman. I think we will finally see actual use of the 25th amendment. Again, JMHO. Time will tell.

Midterms do usually run against the party of the WH, so I am looking forward to regaining control of the House in 2022 as well as expanding the majority in the Senate. I have a person in mind to support in 2024, should I still be here. He is one of the ones I supported in 2016 against Trump.

I think yours is a Pyrrhic victory.

I am in general agreement with your post about voter turnout.

Your comment also just explained why the results are not indicative of fraud.

Nobody here has asked me my opinion of fraud.

Although there were instances here and there of questionable actions and methods, I think nothing sufficient will be found in time to materially change the result that has been announced. Whether Trump was voted out or counted out, Biden will be the next president, for a while.

I think of much more importance was the four year campaign of lies and innuendo that painted and polarized people's opinions.

In 2024, that won't work. Not enough time.

OO, your characterization of “the four year campaign of lies and innuendos” is called politics. It happens in the aftermath of each election. The past four years, in my opinion wasn’t much different than the previous four years and the Clinton-Trump race. Nor much different than the Obama election cycles. The “lies and innuendos” seem sharper because of the way we live in the midst of an ocean of news streaming, social media, echo chambers from each side....all vying for our attention and monetizing that attention.
And, in my opinion, your comment that in 2024 there won’t be enough time... well, I sincerely think that there’s plenty of time. Too much time, probably.

(12-10-2020 10:04 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:49 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 09:32 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 07:48 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I made this same response on the main Spin Room. I added bold fonts here because Good Owl apparently only can understand posts that feature that emphasis. And a few more states.

Here is evidence fact #1 -- All 50 states have now been certified for their election results.

Fact #2 (comparing election results from 2016 to 2020) -- Just looking at the red states, the only 2 states Trump improved from 2016 to 2020 were Florida (he gained a net 2.2 percentage points over 2016 when you compare his numbers to that of Clinton in 2016 and Biden in 2020) and Utah (he gained a net 2 although that state was skewed in 2016 by Evan McMullen). Arkansas and Ohio were pushes (same percentages in both 2016 and 2020).

Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Alabama - lost 2.2 pct - again to help out Good Owl, I'll break it down a bit. In 2016, Trump won 62.08 percent of the vote there and Clinton 34.36. In 2020, Trump won 62.03 percent (pretty damn consistent really), but Biden won 36.57 (helped by weaker 3rd party candidates, which is an underlying factor of the 2020 election in nearly every state). Dems gained 2.2 pct from 2016 to 2020

Alaska - lost 4.6 (2016 - T 51.28, B 36.55; 2020 - T 52.83, B 42.77)
Idaho - lost 1
Indiana - lost 2.8
Iowa - lost 2.2
Kansas - lost 6
Kentucky - lost 3.8
Louisiana - lost 1
Mississippi - lost 1
Missouri - lost 3
Montana - lost 5
Nebraska - lost 1.7
North Carolina - lost 2.5
North Dakota - lost 2.3
Oklahoma - lost 3.5
South Carolina - lost 2.2
South Dakota - lost 3.5
Tennessee - lost 2.8
Texas - lost 3.6
West Virginia - lost 3.2
Wyoming - lost 1.3

Some random blue states (well not particularly random but more states where Trump did worse in 2020 than 2016 were Colo, Ct and Del - Trump lost 6 percent in each one of those states.

For comparison sake in the true battleground states, PA was Trump lost 2, Georgia was Trump lost 5, Michigan was Trump lost 3, Wisconsin was Trump lost 1.4, Minnesota was Trump lost 5.7, Arizona was Trump lost 3.8 and Nevada was a push.

To be fair, Trump gained a bit in some blue states (but still lost the state by large margins).

The bottom line is almost every red state or swing state in the country had a 1 to 3 percent swing where people switched their vote from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. It's not unreasonable to believe at all that if Trump is losing consisently 1 to 3 percent in even the reddest of states that he would also be losing 1 to 3 percent in the battleground states. The only states that I could see as being questionable is Georgia and maybe Minnesota just because those swings were closer to 5 to 6 percent.

Fact #3 - Young people (under the age of 30) voted in record numbers this year. I've already posted the link to those stats already but I want to say it was 54 to 55 percent of all potential voters in that age group (compared to 48 to 50 percent 4 years ago and 52 to 53 percent for Obama in 2008). 60 percent of all voters in that age group voted for Biden.

Maybe you don't like why they voted for Biden, but you can't deny that they did. They're the folks most likely to be out of work due to Covid (restaurant workers and other service industry people), and they're also the group most concerned by climate change.

Black women also voted in incredibly high numbers (and I want to say voted 90 percent plus for Biden?).

I personally am pissed about the election results - I'm shocked more people fed up with Trump didn't vote for Democrats down ticket. In my county, we went higher for Biden than Clinton, but yet we voted for a Republican House candidate to replace Pete Olsen at the same time rejecting Troy Nehls' twin brother for sheriff.

Republicans should be happy that they avoided a complete wipeout. They have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court (which I feel was stolen from the Democrats, but that's a different thread). And if Biden is the disaster that everyone thinks he will be, the 2022 midterms could get very ugly for the Democrats.

I think you explain in your own post why the down ticket races did not do as well as the presidential race - the Democrats made it all about Trump and succeeded in not making it about policy or party.

The percentage thing is misleading. I don't think it was so much people changing their minds about trump as it was the democrats did well in turning out demographic groups(you mention young people and black women) that would vote Democrat. The record turnout displays that. So, to use a generic example, if in 2016 Trump got 5100 votes out of 10,000, and in the same district in 2020 Trump got 5400 out of 11,500, of course the percentages are going to go down, even as supporters go up. The difference is that the Dems got out a lot of voters who are safe Democrats but who stayed home in 2016.

By making it about Trump, you developed a lot of voters like my nephew who voted Biden but then voted GOP the rest of the way. His preferred person for prez in 2024 is Dan Crenshaw. So a lot of your 2020 Dem votes, like his, will fade away in 2024 when you don't have the Trump bogeyman to run against or 4 years to poison the well with lies and innuendo.

In any case, I don't think Biden will run again in 2024, primarily because he won't be President any more - Harris will. JMHO. But it makes strategic sense not to run an elderly white man who will be having increasing gaffes and instead run an incumbent black woman. I think we will finally see actual use of the 25th amendment. Again, JMHO. Time will tell.

Midterms do usually run against the party of the WH, so I am looking forward to regaining control of the House in 2022 as well as expanding the majority in the Senate. I have a person in mind to support in 2024, should I still be here. He is one of the ones I supported in 2016 against Trump.

I think yours is a Pyrrhic victory.

I am in general agreement with your post about voter turnout.

Your comment also just explained why the results are not indicative of fraud.

Nobody here has asked me my opinion of fraud.

Although there were instances here and there of questionable actions and methods, I think nothing sufficient will be found in time to materially change the result that has been announced. Whether Trump was voted out or counted out, Biden will be the next president, for a while.

I think of much more importance was the four year campaign of lies and innuendo that painted and polarized people's opinions.

In 2024, that won't work. Not enough time.

Was not implying you were arguing for or against fraud - sorry if it came across that way.

I was adding a comment about how your rational explanation for the results (Biden winning, but down ballot Reps winning) helps explain why they are not indicative of fraud.

Expanding on my nephew:

He said he was happy with the first three years under trump, but voted against him (his words), because he was not happy with the way(s) Covid was handled. So the propaganda against Trump in the last year had its desired effect, but only in this one election. It did not create a new Democrat.

My nephew is 34.

I think FBO's mix of dissatisfaction mirrors mine, just in opposite directiions.

anyway, it is what it is. I hope we can weather the next 2-4 years without too much damage.

One question: FBO brought up climate change. What do the millennials expect Biden to do that will materially change anything? Ban fracking?

a) certification is not evidence of a lack of fraud. It is likely evidence that the election will not be overturned, but it is not remotely evidence of a lack of fraud. The country still must move on. IF (and its a big if... I have no idea) it is true that both sides agree on at least 6% of invalid signatures and perhaps more, then that is significant evidence of fraud... no matter how you slice it.

b) these calculations about votes Trump lost seem pretty misguided... designed to support a preconception rather than evidence themselves.

In Alaska, Trump goes from 51% to 52% and he LOST votes? No. Democrats went from 36% to 42%. They gained votes, but Trump didn't lose them. Same in Texas where Trump got 52% both times and Dems went from (off the top of my head) 42% to 46%. Democrats took more of the 3rd party or middle.... or as FBO noted... that there was a significant uptick in young voters, who skew fairly hard to the left.

The idea that Trump lost votes is based on speculation which is not impossible, but also not demonstrable. The evidence suggests that Democrats were successful in motivating non-traditional voters or people who didn't vote in 2016.... so they clearly gained, but Trump didn't necessarily lose meaningful numbers of votes. That should be enough, but apparently Dems still have to suggest that people hate Trump

(12-10-2020 10:35 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  a) certification is not evidence of a lack of fraud. It is likely evidence that the election will not be overturned, but it is not remotely evidence of a lack of fraud. The country still must move on. IF (and its a big if... I have no idea) it is true that both sides agree on at least 6% of invalid signatures and perhaps more, then that is significant evidence of fraud... no matter how you slice it.

b) these calculations about votes Trump lost seem pretty misguided... designed to support a preconception rather than evidence themselves.

In Alaska, Trump goes from 51% to 52% and he LOST votes? No. Democrats went from 36% to 42%. They gained votes, but Trump didn't lose them. Same in Texas where Trump got 52% both times and Dems went from (off the top of my head) 42% to 46%. Democrats took more of the 3rd party or middle.... or as FBO noted... that there was a significant uptick in young voters, who skew fairly hard to the left.

The idea that Trump lost votes is based on speculation which is not impossible, but also not demonstrable. The evidence suggests that Democrats were successful in motivating non-traditional voters or people who didn't vote in 2016.... so they clearly gained, but Trump didn't necessarily lose meaningful numbers of votes. That should be enough, but apparently Dems still have to suggest that people hate Trump

Expanding on B (I don't quite get the preconceived comment) - Trump actually gained votes across the board. Trump earned 74 MM votes in 2020, basically 11 MM more than he earned in 2016 (63 MM). So while he may have "lost" percentages, he still gained voters, as you say. Both sides motivated people to vote for their candidate at rates we haven't seen before - the change in percent could indicate a whole host of things.

Like you say, I think it's most likely indicating that unmotivated 2016 voters showed up in 2020, when they stayed at home in 2016; hence the increase in votes for both parties' candidates.

I think you're harping a bit too much on the "lost" language and it's implication about "hating" Trump. Not sure if there's a clearly superior way to discuss the change in % (gain/loss), and I think the analysis that the change in percent across the states that Trump won clearly shows that the motivation discussed above exists (or the fraudsters were really smart about leaving that cookie crumb).

(12-10-2020 08:09 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  You last few comments are what make me chuckle the most at the idea of election fraud on scale to change outcomes. After 2018, where we saw significant Dem gains down ballot, why would this dastardly plan intentionally lose down ballot elections and not flip the Senate?

It makes no sense - if you're going to rig an election, rig it! Give Dems clear control of each part of the federal government and at least more control of state and local government.

That's what the globalists want us to think.

https://www.sanfransentinel.com/globalis...rump1.html

(12-10-2020 10:50 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Expanding on B (I don't quite get the preconceived comment) -

Everything you say here is correct.... and in direct conflict with the way FBO presented it.

He said

Quote:Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Yet the first one out of the gate, Trump's percentage actually went up. Biden's percentage just went up more.

This idea that Trump 'lost' voters is not unique to this thread. It has been proffered elsewhere on this forum and certainly in social media which is where many perceptions are formed... and that is what I was referring to. Because you probably skip some stories i read and vice versa, you may not notice this as much as I would. Even if it is just my perception and the opposite is more prevalent, perhaps it is the choice of leftist media that I look at that skews my perception. Either way, volume aside... the wording is incorrect.

To the extent that there IS a 2021 talking points memo (and I don't believe the DNC is pushing this) the idea that Trump LOST votes over 2016 seems much more prevalent than the idea that Biden GAINED votes over Hillary, relative to Trump.

FTR, I dont think this is part of anyone's agenda on here nor is it part of the DNC's or Biden's agenda... They won and that was their agenda. I DO think there SOME part of the leftist population (I know lots of my sons friends in NYC who are part of it) and there seems to be SOME complicancy in the media with continuing the hatred of Trump and all things Trump, including his voters.... and rather than note as you did that he actually picked up millions of votes and that his percentages in many states was just as good as it was last time or very close, that the REAL difference was gap closure by Biden or RELATIVELY small pick-ups in a few key swing states, which is precisely how Trump won last time. Its as if Biden's team read the playbook that Hillary's didn't. Hillary seemed intent on 'a national movement' and was so convinced of victory that she lost sight of the ball. Biden arguably focused so much in a few areas that he won and brought a couple of Senators in those states with him, but lost some in the house. I don't know that for a fact, but its a decent starting theory.

(12-10-2020 11:48 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-10-2020 10:50 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Expanding on B (I don't quite get the preconceived comment) -

Everything you say here is correct.... and in direct conflict with the way FBO presented it.

He said

Quote:Here are the percentages Trump lost from 2016 in the states he won....

Yet the first one out of the gate, Trump's percentage actually went up. Biden's percentage just went up more.

This idea that Trump 'lost' voters is not unique to this thread. It has been proffered elsewhere on this forum and certainly in social media which is where many perceptions are formed... and that is what I was referring to. Because you probably skip some stories i read and vice versa, you may not notice this as much as I would. Even if it is just my perception and the opposite is more prevalent, perhaps it is the choice of leftist media that I look at that skews my perception. Either way, volume aside... the wording is incorrect.

To the extent that there IS a 2021 talking points memo (and I don't believe the DNC is pushing this) the idea that Trump LOST votes over 2016 seems much more prevalent than the idea that Biden GAINED votes over Hillary, relative to Trump.

FTR, I dont think this is part of anyone's agenda on here nor is it part of the DNC's or Biden's agenda... They won and that was their agenda. I DO think there SOME part of the leftist population (I know lots of my sons friends in NYC who are part of it) and there seems to be SOME complicancy in the media with continuing the hatred of Trump and all things Trump, including his voters.... and rather than note as you did that he actually picked up millions of votes and that his percentages in many states was just as good as it was last time or very close, that the REAL difference was gap closure by Biden or RELATIVELY small pick-ups in a few key swing states, which is precisely how Trump won last time. Its as if Biden's team read the playbook that Hillary's didn't. Hillary seemed intent on 'a national movement' and was so convinced of victory that she lost sight of the ball. Biden arguably focused so much in a few areas that he won and brought a couple of Senators in those states with him, but lost some in the house. I don't know that for a fact, but its a decent starting theory.

I think you’re taking issue with a discussion with how a conversation could be confusedly misinterpreted - how the percent of votes cast could possibly being confused with total votes cast. I don’t see a bias in how it was discussed here - it was clearly presented as a change in % of votes (and specifically the delta between the two - a common metric for political races). I didn’t take that the conversation was indicating Trump lost any votes, but rather the difference between the vote share decreased.

But yeah, maybe this is an issue in the sphere’s we both orbit. In my sphere I’ve almost always heard how Trump’s total vote count was second all time - behind only Biden.

FBO just focused on the delta, which in rebuking the false claims of voter fraud, seems to be relevant.

Just think you’re stretching a bit here in the criticism of that point.