(11-19-2020 02:16 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 12:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 11:40 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(11-18-2020 08:43 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-18-2020 08:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  There was no discrimination, though they probably would have played that card. They got in because they had the money to make it not worthwhile for the NCAA to fight it.

Liberty Definitely had the ammunition to demonstrate that religious discrimination occurred. The whole thing didn’t go to court because a lot of very disparaging emails from university officials would have come to light.

I really have to wonder if this whole think is Liberty using its legal fire power to help some schools follow their path to be FBS independents.

No, it wasn't religious discrimination that kept Liberty out of conferences. It was Liberty's discrimination and intolerance that did it.

Wasn’t it schools and conferences not wanting to be associated with Liberty based on Liberty’s beliefs? Is a school only acceptable if they think and believe like everyone else? Further, what specifically in Liberty’s code of conduct, school rules, etc. was egregious enough to exclude? I really don’t know - haven’t looked into them. Genuinely asking.

Their anti-gay bigotry is a big issue.

Are they anti-gay people or anti-homosexual behavior? There’s a fine line there

(11-19-2020 01:59 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 01:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s get something straight—it’s not the job of a private university to be all things to all people.

If a private religious school wants to have a code of conduct and curriculum that reflects the beliefs and values of the church who founded it they are more than free to. Liberty is pretty clear about what they believe, it’s not like they are hiding it from anyone. If you agree with them then you’re more than welcome to apply, get accepted, and attend. And if you don’t, there are plenty of other universities to choose from.

Just because you don’t like what a school believes or teaches doesn’t mean you can just demand they change the very fiber of their being to conform to your worldview. It doesn’t make them discriminatory just because they cater to a specific kind of student.

What folks are trying to do with places like BYU and Liberty is to create cookie cutter secular institutions out of religious schools. It’s the equivalent of showing up at a Ford dealership and demanding that they stop selling Fords and only sell Kias because you don’t like Fords, you think Kias are better, and that since you think so everyone should only be able to buy Kia cars.

Bigotry should not be tolerated simply because it is hidden behind a facade of religious beliefs.

Bigotry is a subjective term and frankly quite meaningless when you simply try to tack it on as a descriptor to anyone who disagrees with you.

Now let’s refocus this thread back to ASUN expansion rather than yet another anti-Liberty diatribe

(11-19-2020 02:20 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 02:16 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 12:22 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 11:40 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(11-18-2020 08:43 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Liberty Definitely had the ammunition to demonstrate that religious discrimination occurred. The whole thing didn’t go to court because a lot of very disparaging emails from university officials would have come to light.

I really have to wonder if this whole think is Liberty using its legal fire power to help some schools follow their path to be FBS independents.

No, it wasn't religious discrimination that kept Liberty out of conferences. It was Liberty's discrimination and intolerance that did it.

Wasn’t it schools and conferences not wanting to be associated with Liberty based on Liberty’s beliefs? Is a school only acceptable if they think and believe like everyone else? Further, what specifically in Liberty’s code of conduct, school rules, etc. was egregious enough to exclude? I really don’t know - haven’t looked into them. Genuinely asking.

Their anti-gay bigotry is a big issue.

Are they anti-gay people or anti-homosexual behavior? There’s a fine line there

No there isn't. It's the same thing.

(11-19-2020 02:20 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 01:59 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 01:10 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s get something straight—it’s not the job of a private university to be all things to all people.

If a private religious school wants to have a code of conduct and curriculum that reflects the beliefs and values of the church who founded it they are more than free to. Liberty is pretty clear about what they believe, it’s not like they are hiding it from anyone. If you agree with them then you’re more than welcome to apply, get accepted, and attend. And if you don’t, there are plenty of other universities to choose from.

Just because you don’t like what a school believes or teaches doesn’t mean you can just demand they change the very fiber of their being to conform to your worldview. It doesn’t make them discriminatory just because they cater to a specific kind of student.

What folks are trying to do with places like BYU and Liberty is to create cookie cutter secular institutions out of religious schools. It’s the equivalent of showing up at a Ford dealership and demanding that they stop selling Fords and only sell Kias because you don’t like Fords, you think Kias are better, and that since you think so everyone should only be able to buy Kia cars.

Bigotry should not be tolerated simply because it is hidden behind a facade of religious beliefs.

Bigotry is a subjective term and frankly quite meaningless when you simply try to tack it on as a descriptor to anyone who disagrees with you.

Now let’s refocus this thread back to ASUN expansion rather than yet another anti-Liberty diatribe

Maybe it would be better described as the anti-fundamentalist bigotry of the college presidents!

But Liberty's religious ties ARE an issue, however, you phrase it. As is their massive online program.

Can we stop talking about Liberty’s beliefs and get back to ASun expansion?

Whenever Liberty comes up in a discussion we can typically count on dbackjon and Tom in Lazybrook to run out their same tired hatred. None of it has relevance in this thread but that will not stop some from using it to grind their axe.

As for the OP, the more I have chewed on this news the past few days the more I am curious about what is really driving this move from the commish's office.

(11-19-2020 03:09 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  Whenever Liberty comes up in a discussion we can typically count on dbackjon and Tom in Lazybrook to run out their same tired hatred. None of it has relevance in this thread but that will not stop some from using it to grind their axe.

As for the OP, the more I have chewed on this news the past few days the more I am curious about what is really driving this move from the commish's office.

The only hatred comes from Liberty towards fellow humans.


It is funny - Liberty people and others keep trying to claim they are discriminated against, but when people push back against that illogic, they start crying.

Don't want it as a topic? Then stop introducing it in to threads.

So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

(11-19-2020 03:44 PM)EKUSteve Wrote:  So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

Finally, a post about the OP.

my guess is that they go shopping for a fb affiliate. Maybe Tarleton St signs on to play the 5 ASUN FCS Schools.

(11-19-2020 03:44 PM)EKUSteve Wrote:  So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

I think the goal is to convince:
- ETSU
- Chattanooga

to jump on board with:
- EKU
- UNA
- JSU
- KSU

...for a core six.

Apparently they have UCA on board, but they’d be an outlier. Not sure how UCA plays into the end game. Will they go after LA schools or OVC TN schools to bridge to Arkansas?

(11-19-2020 03:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 03:44 PM)EKUSteve Wrote:  So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

Finally, a post about the OP.

my guess is that they go shopping for a fb affiliate. Maybe Tarleton St signs on to play the 5 ASUN FCS Schools.

My question, why would EKU, UCA, JSU leave to just stay FCS and join UNA, KSU, Fla FCS schools? Are they trying to join 5 schools w/ the desire to move FBS? Or are they planning to go Indy until there are 8 close enough in their region to make a FBS conference w Liberty?

To be honest, I am not sure how good our (EKU) relationship is with the OVC. The conference approved but was not thrilled with us playing a fall season in football. So maybe it is to join a group of similar schools (regional public). With the new admin at EKU and the head of the BOR being a former football player, I don't think a jump would be made that didn't bring positives to football.

(11-19-2020 01:36 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  ccd494 You’re making my case for me. Through FOIA requests, Liberty was about to show in court a whole stack of emails from other university administrators disparaging Liberty and their beliefs and conveying their intention to black ball them from joining their athletic conference. You’re also right, that anti-competitiveness was going to be a big part of Liberty’s suit as well. The NCAA’s argument of course was going to be that they weren’t the ones black balling Liberty, it was the 10 FBS conferences—it was a blame shift game whose ultimate outcome would have been that Liberty had no chance whatsoever of joining FBS with those 10 conferences serving as the gatekeepers.

As to the Ford/Kia analogy. Ford (that is to say Liberty) is just fine with folks going and shopping elsewhere but oftentimes that’s not what is happening. They are under constant assault by this group of that group to change and conform. It’s the equivalent of saying I don’t like Fords, no should like Fords, let’s burn the Ford dealership to the ground.

None of what you are alleging is wrong or illegal. Liberty has no free speech right to not be made fun of. Liberty has no free speech or religious liberty right to play FBS football. The NCAA/conferences would have won in court. Liberty just demonstrated the willingness to eat eight figures of legal fees that no other institution can, so the NCAA relented rather than fight the lawsuit.

(11-19-2020 03:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 03:44 PM)EKUSteve Wrote:  So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

Finally, a post about the OP.

my guess is that they go shopping for a fb affiliate. Maybe Tarleton St signs on to play the 5 ASUN FCS Schools.

What's in it for EKU?

(11-19-2020 04:49 PM)ccd494 Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 01:36 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  ccd494 You’re making my case for me. Through FOIA requests, Liberty was about to show in court a whole stack of emails from other university administrators disparaging Liberty and their beliefs and conveying their intention to black ball them from joining their athletic conference. You’re also right, that anti-competitiveness was going to be a big part of Liberty’s suit as well. The NCAA’s argument of course was going to be that they weren’t the ones black balling Liberty, it was the 10 FBS conferences—it was a blame shift game whose ultimate outcome would have been that Liberty had no chance whatsoever of joining FBS with those 10 conferences serving as the gatekeepers.

As to the Ford/Kia analogy. Ford (that is to say Liberty) is just fine with folks going and shopping elsewhere but oftentimes that’s not what is happening. They are under constant assault by this group of that group to change and conform. It’s the equivalent of saying I don’t like Fords, no should like Fords, let’s burn the Ford dealership to the ground.

None of what you are alleging is wrong or illegal. Liberty has no free speech right to not be made fun of. Liberty has no free speech or religious liberty right to play FBS football. The NCAA/conferences would have won in court. Liberty just demonstrated the willingness to eat eight figures of legal fees that no other institution can, so the NCAA relented rather than fight the lawsuit.

NCAA would have lost in court on anti-trust. And it would have really weakened their position on a host of issues including player salaries. They didn't dare fight that battle. And they knew that only a handful of schools could afford to move up to be an independent. If any other than Liberty.

First of all, nobody tha tf wants to talk sports wants to hear about why you want to complain about what Liberty is or isnt...

So back to the damn topic....

The thing that makes the most sense is like someone from EKU posted, aligning themselves with similar schools after EKU kinda went against the OVC grain.

Also, UCA may very well be a bridge for a couple, if not all the Louisiana schools from the Southland to move.

Some on here are way too young to remember the old Gulf South Conference. Even in D2, it was considered one of the premier NCAA football conferences in the country at any level. The ASUN may be trying to put something together that replicates that to the best of their abilities.

Their is tremendous history in some sort of way with all the schools involved, especially the ones I know about that haven't been publicly mentioned yet. So y'all can speculate, nash, and not understand all you want, but you have to know how the schools involved think.


How about we see what really happens, and then talk about what's going on.....

Honest question here: wouldn’t it just make more sense for Gumbard to negotiate with the OVC to get Kenn St and UNA football membership in the OVC?

The OVC is a better FCS conference than the Big South and a better geographic fit for that duo. Plus their football playing contingent consists of 9 public football schools

(11-19-2020 06:02 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Honest question here: wouldn’t it just make more sense for Gumbard to negotiate with the OVC to get Kenn St and UNA football membership in the OVC?

The OVC is a better FCS conference than the Big South and a better geographic fit for that duo. Plus their football playing contingent consists of 9 public football schools

No its not...

And do you not think Gumbart has done what ever he could do to find solutions?

But he also has a huge opportunity to make an extremely strong FCS conference. Why not do it?

(11-19-2020 03:44 PM)EKUSteve Wrote:  So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

I’m just throwin’ stuff out there.

Chattanooga
Western Carolina
Tennessee Tech
Charleston So. / West Florida


Kennesaw St.
North Alabama
Eastern Kentucky
Jacksonville St.
Central Arkansas
Stetson

But this proposed conference doesn’t seem much more competitive “face value” than their current conferences.

(11-19-2020 06:44 PM)army56mike Wrote:  

(11-19-2020 03:44 PM)EKUSteve Wrote:  So if this is FCS, who else joins if these three do?

I’m just throwin’ stuff out there.

Chattanooga
Western Carolina
Tennessee Tech
Charleston So. / West Florida


Kennesaw St.
North Alabama
Eastern Kentucky
Jacksonville St.
Central Arkansas
Stetson

ETSU?