(11-07-2020 10:57 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  As a huge Cowboys fan, I'm not surprised at the move. Probably for the best for all parties though. Maybe the kid turns into a good QB eventually, but he's clearly not there yet. Not his fault.

It would help if he had an O-line and consistent receivers. The Cowgirls have neither this year. He might do better elsewhere.

(11-07-2020 11:23 AM)orange-to-purple Wrote:  

(11-07-2020 10:57 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  As a huge Cowboys fan, I'm not surprised at the move. Probably for the best for all parties though. Maybe the kid turns into a good QB eventually, but he's clearly not there yet. Not his fault.

It would help if he had an O-line and consistent receivers. The Cowgirls have neither this year. He might do better elsewhere.

Agreed on the Oline, but it's kinda hard to say we don't have consistent receivers when we haven't had consistent QB play since Dak got hurt.

(11-07-2020 11:50 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(11-07-2020 11:23 AM)orange-to-purple Wrote:  

(11-07-2020 10:57 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  As a huge Cowboys fan, I'm not surprised at the move. Probably for the best for all parties though. Maybe the kid turns into a good QB eventually, but he's clearly not there yet. Not his fault.

It would help if he had an O-line and consistent receivers. The Cowgirls have neither this year. He might do better elsewhere.

Agreed on the Oline, but it's kinda hard to say we don't have consistent receivers when we haven't had consistent QB play since Dak got hurt.

It isn't possible to have "consistent QB play" if your offensive line can't keep the pocket intact for a microsecond.

I am wondering if the strategy in Frisco is to offer up Garrett Gilbert as a sacrificial lamb against the best defense in the NFL today, recognizing that no Dallas QB is going be able to withstand the pressure that the Steelers are going to bring, to preserve Dalton and Nooch? Just wondering.

Of those disappointed that the Nooch got benched for 4th string Gilbert, Shane Montgomery Is probably most disappointed. He would have had 2 of his former QB pupils playing on the national CBS broadcast against each other. Most potential JMU recruits wouldn’t know he coached Roethlisberger at Miami University and today could have been a really nice connection spanning 15 years. 2 very opposite styles too with Big Ben being an immobile pocket passer and the Nooch relying on his legs much more.

Gilbert Grapes number do not look much better than Ben’s. I’m also guessing they didn’t run one dumb gimmick play after the next for him. Between not setting up the series with Zeke running and then building up the passing game with short to intermediate throws Ben never stood a chance to succeed.

(11-08-2020 08:50 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  Gilbert Grapes number do not look much better than Ben’s. I’m also guessing they didn’t run one dumb gimmick play after the next for him. Between not setting up the series with Zeke running and then building up the passing game with short to intermediate throws Ben never stood a chance to succeed.

I was shocked that the first play from scrimmage was a designed run for Gilbert Grape who is as mobile as Joe Namath.

(11-08-2020 08:50 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  Gilbert Grapes number do not look much better than Ben’s. I’m also guessing they didn’t run one dumb gimmick play after the next for him. Between not setting up the series with Zeke running and then building up the passing game with short to intermediate throws Ben never stood a chance to succeed.

I thought Gilberts numbers looked better, and his game tape looks significantly better. 1 TD to 1 turnover vs 0 TDs and 2 turnovers. I think I saw Ben was 6/20 when passing 3+ yards downfield and I haven't seen it for Gilbert, but he was definitely better than that. He had 60 more yards on the same amount of completions. There were less gimmick plays and were more passes downfield so that helps his numbers but is kind of a chicken or the egg argument. Gilbert played a significantly better defense with less time with the 1s in practice than Ben but looked much better. Dallas scored their first touchdown in 3 or 4 weeks and were beating a 7-0 team. I imagine the chatter is if Gilbert is starting ahead of Dalton in the next game, not if he was better than Ben.

(11-09-2020 08:36 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(11-08-2020 08:50 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  Gilbert Grapes number do not look much better than Ben’s. I’m also guessing they didn’t run one dumb gimmick play after the next for him. Between not setting up the series with Zeke running and then building up the passing game with short to intermediate throws Ben never stood a chance to succeed.

I thought Gilberts numbers looked better, and his game tape looks significantly better. 1 TD to 1 turnover vs 0 TDs and 2 turnovers. I think I saw Ben was 6/20 when passing 3+ yards downfield and I haven't seen it for Gilbert, but he was definitely better than that. He had 60 more yards on the same amount of completions. There were less gimmick plays and were more passes downfield so that helps his numbers but is kind of a chicken or the egg argument. Gilbert played a significantly better defense with less time with the 1s in practice than Ben but looked much better. Dallas scored their first touchdown in 3 or 4 weeks and were beating a 7-0 team. I imagine the chatter is if Gilbert is starting ahead of Dalton in the next game, not if he was better than Ben.

I've not looked at the comparative stats, but watching Gilbert's play, it was certainly much better than Ben's. If Andy was not ready next week, it would be a no brainer to start Gilbert. The only plus I would give on Ben over Gilbert is Ben was faster and more mobile. That was more than offset by Gilbert's pocket presence, and his knowing how to move to get himself free from the rush.

Washington is going to need another QB...a potential opening for Ben if he ends up getting released when Dalton returns.

I realize I am way off topic here, but figured what the heck...

...just saw a note flash up on my phone that says the Steelers are 8-0 for the first time in franchise history. Is it just me, but does that surprise anyone else? I mean, my fellow old fartekers recall when Pittsburgh was a dominant well-oiled machine back in the 70's. They've had some Super Bowl teams since then too. Guess I figured with those teams that featured so many Hall of Famers back in the 70's they would've opened a season (or two) with an 8-0 record. Of course, back then they played 14 game schedules not that it matters. Back then the Dolphins and Raiders were REALLY good too so perhaps in a slightly shorter schedule they had to run up on teams like those in their first 8 games.

(11-09-2020 11:52 AM)Wear Purple Wrote:  I realize I am way off topic here, but figured what the heck...

...just saw a note flash up on my phone that says the Steelers are 8-0 for the first time in franchise history. Is it just me, but does that surprise anyone else? I mean, my fellow old fartekers recall when Pittsburgh was a dominant well-oiled machine back in the 70's. They've had some Super Bowl teams since then too. Guess I figured with those teams that featured so many Hall of Famers back in the 70's they would've opened a season (or two) with an 8-0 record. Of course, back then they played 14 game schedules not that it matters. Back then the Dolphins and Raiders were REALLY good too so perhaps in a slightly shorter schedule they had to run up on teams like those in their first 8 games.

8-0 was a lot harder in 1974 than in 2020.

(11-09-2020 08:36 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(11-08-2020 08:50 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  Gilbert Grapes number do not look much better than Ben’s. I’m also guessing they didn’t run one dumb gimmick play after the next for him. Between not setting up the series with Zeke running and then building up the passing game with short to intermediate throws Ben never stood a chance to succeed.

I thought Gilberts numbers looked better, and his game tape looks significantly better. 1 TD to 1 turnover vs 0 TDs and 2 turnovers. I think I saw Ben was 6/20 when passing 3+ yards downfield and I haven't seen it for Gilbert, but he was definitely better than that. He had 60 more yards on the same amount of completions. There were less gimmick plays and were more passes downfield so that helps his numbers but is kind of a chicken or the egg argument.

23-43 (53.5%) 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT 67.9 rating
21-38 (55.3%) 243 yards 1 TD 1 INT 72.6 rating

Pick wipes out the TD IMO, and while Ben would like to have some of those throws back they gave him a crappy game plan to work with. Running Zeke for a few, then a short pass or two would’ve gotten things rolling much better than gimmick after gimmick and then trying to make something happen on 3rd and long when you could’ve let him get something going with the short game was poor coaching.

(11-09-2020 08:57 AM)Dukester Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:36 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(11-08-2020 08:50 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  Gilbert Grapes number do not look much better than Ben’s. I’m also guessing they didn’t run one dumb gimmick play after the next for him. Between not setting up the series with Zeke running and then building up the passing game with short to intermediate throws Ben never stood a chance to succeed.

I thought Gilberts numbers looked better, and his game tape looks significantly better. 1 TD to 1 turnover vs 0 TDs and 2 turnovers. I think I saw Ben was 6/20 when passing 3+ yards downfield and I haven't seen it for Gilbert, but he was definitely better than that. He had 60 more yards on the same amount of completions. There were less gimmick plays and were more passes downfield so that helps his numbers but is kind of a chicken or the egg argument. Gilbert played a significantly better defense with less time with the 1s in practice than Ben but looked much better. Dallas scored their first touchdown in 3 or 4 weeks and were beating a 7-0 team. I imagine the chatter is if Gilbert is starting ahead of Dalton in the next game, not if he was better than Ben.

I've not looked at the comparative stats, but watching Gilbert's play, it was certainly much better than Ben's. If Andy was not ready next week, it would be a no brainer to start Gilbert. The only plus I would give on Ben over Gilbert is Ben was faster and more mobile. That was more than offset by Gilbert's pocket presence, and his knowing how to move to get himself free from the rush.

You can credit the Cowboys' offensive line for that, not Gilbert. He had much better protection than Nooch had the week before.

(11-09-2020 08:48 PM)Purple Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:36 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  0 TDs and 2 turnovers.

You can credit the Cowboys' offensive line for that, not Gilbert. He had much better protection than Nooch had the week before.

Chalk those 2 turnovers up to the o-line as well, Troy Aikman in his prime would’ve coughed them up as well, Ben didn’t stand a chance on those two sacks/fumbles.

(11-09-2020 08:40 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  23-43 (53.5%) 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT 67.9 rating
21-38 (55.3%) 243 yards 1 TD 1 INT 72.6 rating

Pick wipes out the TD IMO, and while Ben would like to have some of those throws back they gave him a crappy game plan to work with. Running Zeke for a few, then a short pass or two would’ve gotten things rolling much better than gimmick after gimmick and then trying to make something happen on 3rd and long when you could’ve let him get something going with the short game was poor coaching.

Well those stats may be comparable, but they are also Ben's season stats. So looking at their games as starters:
21-40 (52.5%); 180 yards passing + 22 yards rushing - 48 on sacks = 154 net yards; 0 TD 0 INT 2 FUMB = net -2; 64.6 passer rating; 21.7 QBR
21-38 (55.3%); 243 yards passing + 28 yards rushing - 23 on sacks = 248 net yards; 1 TD 1 INT 0 FUMB = net 0; 72.6 passer rating; 62.3 QBR

Why should we excuse Ben's 2 fumbles as terrible Oline play but blame Gilbert for throwing an INT in the endzone on 3rd and goal when an untouched MLB ran right thru the middle of the line? If for some reason I agree that 2 turnovers = 1 turnover, are you going to tell me that 0 TDs is the same as 1?

Ben had 126 passing yards until 1:50 left in the game down by 2 TDs. He had 93 net yards in the first 58 minutes. Given Ben got 13 passing yards earlier in the game from a pass at the line of scrimmage on a 3rd and 17, Ben's none garbage time/play passing yards may have been under 100 for the game.

I'll allow you to think that 1 stat in isolation is comparable, but as a whole, it isn't even close (in that there isn't a single stat that Ben did better in). 243 meaningful passing yards > 113. 1 TD > 0. 1 Turnover > 2. 2 sack for 23 yards > 4 for 48. 62.3 QBR > 21.7.

The gameplay wasn't comparable either. Ben led an offense to 9 points on 3 long FGs (49, 49 and 59). Two of those drives were less than 15 yards. Gilbert's offense scored twice as many points on an opponent giving up a TD less per game. Gilbert led them on four 50+ yard scoring drives (Ben zero). On Gilbert's TD drive he scrambled for 26 yards, passed for 36 and Ezekiel had a 3 yard rush. Gilbert was responsible for more yards on that single TD drive than Nooch was on all three of his scoring drives (25, 11 and 10).

Could some of it been attributed to better supporting plan (even though Zek and Pollard averaged 4 yards a rush in both games)? Absolutely. Do I expect more from a guy that has been in the league for 6 years than a rookie 7th round QB in COVID era with no preseason? Absolutely. Did Ben get the very short end of the stick with Dak and Dalton going down before he had the time to develop that is expected for a 7th rounder? Absolutely. My support of Nooch is well documented (go back to his thread to see my overwhelming support for him during the 2018 season and AFTER the season when everyone was shitting on him for 5 picks), but just look at what people are talking about after the games, Ben is being compared to uncle rico, while people are debating if Gilbert should stay at #1 when Dalton is back.

(11-10-2020 12:30 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:40 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  23-43 (53.5%) 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT 67.9 rating
21-38 (55.3%) 243 yards 1 TD 1 INT 72.6 rating

Pick wipes out the TD IMO, and while Ben would like to have some of those throws back they gave him a crappy game plan to work with. Running Zeke for a few, then a short pass or two would’ve gotten things rolling much better than gimmick after gimmick and then trying to make something happen on 3rd and long when you could’ve let him get something going with the short game was poor coaching.

Well those stats may be comparable, but they are also Ben's season stats. So looking at their games as starters:
21-40 (52.5%); 180 yards passing + 22 yards rushing - 48 on sacks = 154 net yards; 0 TD 0 INT 2 FUMB = net -2; 64.6 passer rating; 21.7 QBR
21-38 (55.3%); 243 yards passing + 28 yards rushing - 23 on sacks = 248 net yards; 1 TD 1 INT 0 FUMB = net 0; 72.6 passer rating; 62.3 QBR

Why should we excuse Ben's 2 fumbles as terrible Oline play but blame Gilbert for throwing an INT in the endzone on 3rd and goal when an untouched MLB ran right thru the middle of the line? If for some reason I agree that 2 turnovers = 1 turnover, are you going to tell me that 0 TDs is the same as 1?

Ben had 126 passing yards until 1:50 left in the game down by 2 TDs. He had 93 net yards in the first 58 minutes. Given Ben got 13 passing yards earlier in the game from a pass at the line of scrimmage on a 3rd and 17, Ben's none garbage time/play passing yards may have been under 100 for the game.

I'll allow you to think that 1 stat in isolation is comparable, but as a whole, it isn't even close (in that there isn't a single stat that Ben did better in). 243 meaningful passing yards > 113. 1 TD > 0. 1 Turnover > 2. 2 sack for 23 yards > 4 for 48. 62.3 QBR > 21.7.

The gameplay wasn't comparable either. Ben led an offense to 9 points on 3 long FGs (49, 49 and 59). Two of those drives were less than 15 yards. Gilbert's offense scored twice as many points on an opponent giving up a TD less per game. Gilbert led them on four 50+ yard scoring drives (Ben zero). On Gilbert's TD drive he scrambled for 26 yards, passed for 36 and Ezekiel had a 3 yard rush. Gilbert was responsible for more yards on that single TD drive than Nooch was on all three of his scoring drives (25, 11 and 10).

Could some of it been attributed to better supporting plan (even though Zek and Pollard averaged 4 yards a rush in both games)? Absolutely. Do I expect more from a guy that has been in the league for 6 years than a rookie 7th round QB in COVID era with no preseason? Absolutely. Did Ben get the very short end of the stick with Dak and Dalton going down before he had the time to develop that is expected for a 7th rounder? Absolutely. My support of Nooch is well documented (go back to his thread to see my overwhelming support for him during the 2018 season and AFTER the season when everyone was shitting on him for 5 picks), but just look at what people are talking about after the games, Ben is being compared to uncle rico, while people are debating if Gilbert should stay at #1 when Dalton is back.

Agree with all of this. Plus Gilbert was the unofficial MVP of the AAF last year so he has played meaningful professional football and used to the game speed which without a preseason, ben was not

(11-10-2020 12:30 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:40 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  23-43 (53.5%) 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT 67.9 rating
21-38 (55.3%) 243 yards 1 TD 1 INT 72.6 rating

Pick wipes out the TD IMO, and while Ben would like to have some of those throws back they gave him a crappy game plan to work with. Running Zeke for a few, then a short pass or two would’ve gotten things rolling much better than gimmick after gimmick and then trying to make something happen on 3rd and long when you could’ve let him get something going with the short game was poor coaching.

Well those stats may be comparable, but they are also Ben's season stats. So looking at their games as starters:
21-40 (52.5%); 180 yards passing + 22 yards rushing - 48 on sacks = 154 net yards; 0 TD 0 INT 2 FUMB = net -2; 64.6 passer rating; 21.7 QBR
21-38 (55.3%); 243 yards passing + 28 yards rushing - 23 on sacks = 248 net yards; 1 TD 1 INT 0 FUMB = net 0; 72.6 passer rating; 62.3 QBR

Why should we excuse Ben's 2 fumbles as terrible Oline play but blame Gilbert for throwing an INT in the endzone on 3rd and goal when an untouched MLB ran right thru the middle of the line? If for some reason I agree that 2 turnovers = 1 turnover, are you going to tell me that 0 TDs is the same as 1?

Ben had 126 passing yards until 1:50 left in the game down by 2 TDs. He had 93 net yards in the first 58 minutes. Given Ben got 13 passing yards earlier in the game from a pass at the line of scrimmage on a 3rd and 17, Ben's none garbage time/play passing yards may have been under 100 for the game.

I'll allow you to think that 1 stat in isolation is comparable, but as a whole, it isn't even close (in that there isn't a single stat that Ben did better in). 243 meaningful passing yards > 113. 1 TD > 0. 1 Turnover > 2. 2 sack for 23 yards > 4 for 48. 62.3 QBR > 21.7.

The gameplay wasn't comparable either. Ben led an offense to 9 points on 3 long FGs (49, 49 and 59). Two of those drives were less than 15 yards. Gilbert's offense scored twice as many points on an opponent giving up a TD less per game. Gilbert led them on four 50+ yard scoring drives (Ben zero). On Gilbert's TD drive he scrambled for 26 yards, passed for 36 and Ezekiel had a 3 yard rush. Gilbert was responsible for more yards on that single TD drive than Nooch was on all three of his scoring drives (25, 11 and 10).

Could some of it been attributed to better supporting plan (even though Zek and Pollard averaged 4 yards a rush in both games)? Absolutely. Do I expect more from a guy that has been in the league for 6 years than a rookie 7th round QB in COVID era with no preseason? Absolutely. Did Ben get the very short end of the stick with Dak and Dalton going down before he had the time to develop that is expected for a 7th rounder? Absolutely. My support of Nooch is well documented (go back to his thread to see my overwhelming support for him during the 2018 season and AFTER the season when everyone was shitting on him for 5 picks), but just look at what people are talking about after the games, Ben is being compared to uncle rico, while people are debating if Gilbert should stay at #1 when Dalton is back.

Yea, not sure how anyone could argue that they played similarly, especially considering the quality of opponents and the turnover differential. Cowboys forced 4 turnovers against the Eagles and 0 against the Steelers, hard to blame the oline for Dinucci fumbling when he's holding onto the ball for 5 seconds.

Gilbert was outstanding all things considered, we actually had hope for the first time in weeks. I for one am disappointed that Jerry already committed to putting Dalton back at the starting spot over Gilbert. The Cowboys reddit reads similar.

(11-10-2020 10:09 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(11-10-2020 12:30 AM)DoubleDogDare Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:40 PM)Polish Hammer Wrote:  23-43 (53.5%) 219 yards 0 TD 0 INT 67.9 rating
21-38 (55.3%) 243 yards 1 TD 1 INT 72.6 rating

Pick wipes out the TD IMO, and while Ben would like to have some of those throws back they gave him a crappy game plan to work with. Running Zeke for a few, then a short pass or two would’ve gotten things rolling much better than gimmick after gimmick and then trying to make something happen on 3rd and long when you could’ve let him get something going with the short game was poor coaching.

Well those stats may be comparable, but they are also Ben's season stats. So looking at their games as starters:
21-40 (52.5%); 180 yards passing + 22 yards rushing - 48 on sacks = 154 net yards; 0 TD 0 INT 2 FUMB = net -2; 64.6 passer rating; 21.7 QBR
21-38 (55.3%); 243 yards passing + 28 yards rushing - 23 on sacks = 248 net yards; 1 TD 1 INT 0 FUMB = net 0; 72.6 passer rating; 62.3 QBR

Why should we excuse Ben's 2 fumbles as terrible Oline play but blame Gilbert for throwing an INT in the endzone on 3rd and goal when an untouched MLB ran right thru the middle of the line? If for some reason I agree that 2 turnovers = 1 turnover, are you going to tell me that 0 TDs is the same as 1?

Ben had 126 passing yards until 1:50 left in the game down by 2 TDs. He had 93 net yards in the first 58 minutes. Given Ben got 13 passing yards earlier in the game from a pass at the line of scrimmage on a 3rd and 17, Ben's none garbage time/play passing yards may have been under 100 for the game.

I'll allow you to think that 1 stat in isolation is comparable, but as a whole, it isn't even close (in that there isn't a single stat that Ben did better in). 243 meaningful passing yards > 113. 1 TD > 0. 1 Turnover > 2. 2 sack for 23 yards > 4 for 48. 62.3 QBR > 21.7.

The gameplay wasn't comparable either. Ben led an offense to 9 points on 3 long FGs (49, 49 and 59). Two of those drives were less than 15 yards. Gilbert's offense scored twice as many points on an opponent giving up a TD less per game. Gilbert led them on four 50+ yard scoring drives (Ben zero). On Gilbert's TD drive he scrambled for 26 yards, passed for 36 and Ezekiel had a 3 yard rush. Gilbert was responsible for more yards on that single TD drive than Nooch was on all three of his scoring drives (25, 11 and 10).

Could some of it been attributed to better supporting plan (even though Zek and Pollard averaged 4 yards a rush in both games)? Absolutely. Do I expect more from a guy that has been in the league for 6 years than a rookie 7th round QB in COVID era with no preseason? Absolutely. Did Ben get the very short end of the stick with Dak and Dalton going down before he had the time to develop that is expected for a 7th rounder? Absolutely. My support of Nooch is well documented (go back to his thread to see my overwhelming support for him during the 2018 season and AFTER the season when everyone was shitting on him for 5 picks), but just look at what people are talking about after the games, Ben is being compared to uncle rico, while people are debating if Gilbert should stay at #1 when Dalton is back.

Yea, not sure how anyone could argue that they played similarly, especially considering the quality of opponents and the turnover differential. Cowboys forced 4 turnovers against the Eagles and 0 against the Steelers, hard to blame the oline for Dinucci fumbling when he's holding onto the ball for 5 seconds.

Gilbert was outstanding all things considered, we actually had hope for the first time in weeks. I for one am disappointed that Jerry already committed to putting Dalton back at the starting spot over Gilbert. The Cowboys reddit reads similar.

Agreed, I'd roll Gilbert out another week. See if he can build off it.

(11-10-2020 10:09 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  I for one am disappointed that Jerry already committed to putting Dalton back at the starting spot over Gilbert. The Cowboys reddit reads similar.

Was rather surprised Gilbert did as well as he did. He was noticeably smoother than Ben.


That said, if the above bolded sentence is true, that's a big problem. Did JJ come out in print or an tv interview and say that? McCarthy need to be making that call.

(11-10-2020 10:37 AM)olddawg Wrote:  

(11-10-2020 10:09 AM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  I for one am disappointed that Jerry already committed to putting Dalton back at the starting spot over Gilbert. The Cowboys reddit reads similar.

Was rather surprised Gilbert did as well as he did. He was noticeably smoother than Ben.


That said, if the above bolded sentence is true, that's a big problem. Did JJ come out in print or an tv interview and say that? McCarthy need to be making that call.

https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/when-...in-starter

Sorry, it was Stephen not Jerry. Apparently its just a matter of when Dalton is healthy again.