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(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Couldn't agree more...there is no reason for schools like Kent State, Cleveland State, or Toledo to be comprehensive institutions. Specialize and partner with regional institutions to make a dollar go further, such as creating a common curriculum course load that is shared among schools (English is taught to UT and BGSU students together, General History courses are taught to Akron and Kent State students together), or go even further and provide the state mandated Core Curriculum be taught digitally by a third party so schools don't have to support departments that aren't self-sufficient at their institutions.

(10-19-2020 09:17 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Couldn't agree more...there is no reason for schools like Kent State, Cleveland State, or Toledo to be comprehensive institutions. Specialize and partner with regional institutions to make a dollar go further, such as creating a common curriculum course load that is shared among schools (English is taught to UT and BGSU students together, General History courses are taught to Akron and Kent State students together), or go even further and provide the state mandated Core Curriculum be taught digitally by a third party so schools don't have to support departments that aren't self-sufficient at their institutions.

Thanks everyone.
I liked the in-person environment though. I would hope It is limited to just a few classes. I fear more and more things will go online. It’s not the same Experience

Many jobs are now done digitally from home the new “ home office.” Could you imagine if all future engineers work from home?

This might have been in one of the other threads about higher education in Ohio but some people mentioned that UC should go after Wright State if it starts to fail but are worried that OSU would try to do the same.

Do you think it would ever be possible to do a partnership like Indiana and Purdue do? Have our own version of an IUPUI?

(10-19-2020 09:26 PM)Cattidude Wrote:  This might have been in one of the other threads about higher education in Ohio but some people mentioned that UC should go after Wright State if it starts to fail but are worried that OSU would try to do the same.

Do you think it would ever be possible to do a partnership like Indiana and Purdue do? Have our own version of an IUPUI?

An interesting idea. I always thought IUPUI was saddled with an identity crisis from the day it began. It's grown to be a large university with a sprawling campus, thanks in part to the IN legislature pumping billions into that state's only major city.

I can't speak to how well that all comes together operationally at IUPUI. I assume students still get a degree from either IU or PU upon completion and those degrees identify them as graduates from the Indianapolis campus? Frankly, if UC can't "own" Wright State outright, such a shared arrangement with OSU could be beneficial to UC, expanding the footprint and co-branding with Ohio State. I doubt that OSU would want any part of such an arrangement though.

(10-19-2020 09:20 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 09:17 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Couldn't agree more...there is no reason for schools like Kent State, Cleveland State, or Toledo to be comprehensive institutions. Specialize and partner with regional institutions to make a dollar go further, such as creating a common curriculum course load that is shared among schools (English is taught to UT and BGSU students together, General History courses are taught to Akron and Kent State students together), or go even further and provide the state mandated Core Curriculum be taught digitally by a third party so schools don't have to support departments that aren't self-sufficient at their institutions.

Thanks everyone.
I liked the in-person environment though. I would hope It is limited to just a few classes. I fear more and more things will go online. It’s not the same Experience

Many jobs are now done digitally from home the new “ home office.” Could you imagine if all future engineers work from home?

I'm just talking about the 6-8 elective courses (your History of Rock and Rolls and English Comps of the world) that have been built to prop up departments that shouldn't exist. I don't think you'd get any accreditation boards for majors that require lab/practical experiences to approve all online degrees.

(10-20-2020 07:24 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 09:26 PM)Cattidude Wrote:  This might have been in one of the other threads about higher education in Ohio but some people mentioned that UC should go after Wright State if it starts to fail but are worried that OSU would try to do the same.

Do you think it would ever be possible to do a partnership like Indiana and Purdue do? Have our own version of an IUPUI?

An interesting idea. I always thought IUPUI was saddled with an identity crisis from the day it began. It's grown to be a large university with a sprawling campus, thanks in part to the IN legislature pumping billions into that state's only major city.

I can't speak to how well that all comes together operationally at IUPUI. I assume students still get a degree from either IU or PU upon completion and those degrees identify them as graduates from the Indianapolis campus? Frankly, if UC can't "own" Wright State outright, such a shared arrangement with OSU could be beneficial to UC, expanding the footprint and co-branding with Ohio State. I doubt that OSU would want any part of such an arrangement though.

I think there's a slim chance, and OSU would probably want UC's committed support on some other items important to them, but there's a chance. Ono's long gone, and with him hopefully some of the bad blood he generated between UC and OSU. Bearcat-Buckeye Day at the statehouse is a small but significant indication that OSU might be willing to work with an Ono-less UC. I doubt they'd ever co-brand the campus with UC though. Probably just keep the Wright State name under joint OSU-UC management.

The fly in the ointment might be Miami. Miami was somewhat of a co-founder of WSU with OSU, and since they're desperately trying to rebrand themselves as a decent STEM school, I'd be surprised if they didn't make some kind of play to be OSU's partner. That being said, it could be the opening that UC needs because the bad blood that OSU feels towards Miami is far deeper than anything that Ono caused. They might choose UC as a partner solely to block Miami having anything to do with the deal.

(10-20-2020 07:33 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:24 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 09:26 PM)Cattidude Wrote:  This might have been in one of the other threads about higher education in Ohio but some people mentioned that UC should go after Wright State if it starts to fail but are worried that OSU would try to do the same.

Do you think it would ever be possible to do a partnership like Indiana and Purdue do? Have our own version of an IUPUI?

An interesting idea. I always thought IUPUI was saddled with an identity crisis from the day it began. It's grown to be a large university with a sprawling campus, thanks in part to the IN legislature pumping billions into that state's only major city.

I can't speak to how well that all comes together operationally at IUPUI. I assume students still get a degree from either IU or PU upon completion and those degrees identify them as graduates from the Indianapolis campus? Frankly, if UC can't "own" Wright State outright, such a shared arrangement with OSU could be beneficial to UC, expanding the footprint and co-branding with Ohio State. I doubt that OSU would want any part of such an arrangement though.

I think there's a slim chance, and OSU would probably want UC's committed support on some other items important to them, but there's a chance. Ono's long gone, and with him hopefully some of the bad blood he generated between UC and OSU. Bearcat-Buckeye Day at the statehouse is a small but significant indication that OSU might be willing to work with an Ono-less UC. I doubt they'd ever co-brand the campus with UC though. Probably just keep the Wright State name under joint OSU-UC management.

The fly in the ointment might be Miami. Miami was somewhat of a co-founder of WSU with OSU, and since they're desperately trying to rebrand themselves as a decent STEM school, I'd be surprised if they didn't make some kind of play to be OSU's partner. That being said, it could be the opening that UC needs because the bad blood that OSU feels towards Miami is far deeper than anything that Ono caused. They might choose UC as a partner solely to block Miami having anything to do with the deal.

Maybe I missed it. What did Ono do to create bad blood with osu? Why does osu have bad blood with miami? osu has done a great job diverting funding away from miami for years.

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Again with this trope?

I already addressed this earlier. Toledo competes with Memphis and USF just as much as it does with Akron and OU. And you can't "combine resources" of two graduate programs - it doesn't help anything. Even if you could literally centrally plan the state system and transfer funds from OU's history department to Toledo's history department, they're still judged on the quality of the professors, and that doesn't increase with department size.

Central planning doesn't work. Full stop. Not in car production, not in health care, and certainly not in education.

California's citizens wish they had Ohio's system. Seriously, they hate their system. I lived there for 3 years, and it was constantly in the news. It provides very little opportunity for most of California citizens due to the lack of duplication of programs. As a result, CA is the 4th biggest net exporter of students after adjusting for size.

States that export the most students/capita: New Jersey, Alaska, Illinois, California, Maryland, and Minnesota

All of those states except Illinois have taken your advice and restricted the choice of programs for their students by centralizing decision making on what programs to offer. (Illinois also restricts choice, but that's more due to a lack of investment than centralized decision making). Students are fleeing as a result of that policy.

States that import students (like Iowa, Arizona, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina, and Mississippi) have a lot of duplication of graduate programs.


This also matters because higher education is a HUGE export industry. Alabama had a net import of 7,200 freshmen to its state institutions in 2019 because it built up so much excess capacity. 7,200 * 44,000 (out-of-state tuition, room, & board at U of A) * 4 years = $1.27 billion.

(10-21-2020 11:59 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:33 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:24 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 09:26 PM)Cattidude Wrote:  This might have been in one of the other threads about higher education in Ohio but some people mentioned that UC should go after Wright State if it starts to fail but are worried that OSU would try to do the same.

Do you think it would ever be possible to do a partnership like Indiana and Purdue do? Have our own version of an IUPUI?

An interesting idea. I always thought IUPUI was saddled with an identity crisis from the day it began. It's grown to be a large university with a sprawling campus, thanks in part to the IN legislature pumping billions into that state's only major city.

I can't speak to how well that all comes together operationally at IUPUI. I assume students still get a degree from either IU or PU upon completion and those degrees identify them as graduates from the Indianapolis campus? Frankly, if UC can't "own" Wright State outright, such a shared arrangement with OSU could be beneficial to UC, expanding the footprint and co-branding with Ohio State. I doubt that OSU would want any part of such an arrangement though.

I think there's a slim chance, and OSU would probably want UC's committed support on some other items important to them, but there's a chance. Ono's long gone, and with him hopefully some of the bad blood he generated between UC and OSU. Bearcat-Buckeye Day at the statehouse is a small but significant indication that OSU might be willing to work with an Ono-less UC. I doubt they'd ever co-brand the campus with UC though. Probably just keep the Wright State name under joint OSU-UC management.

The fly in the ointment might be Miami. Miami was somewhat of a co-founder of WSU with OSU, and since they're desperately trying to rebrand themselves as a decent STEM school, I'd be surprised if they didn't make some kind of play to be OSU's partner. That being said, it could be the opening that UC needs because the bad blood that OSU feels towards Miami is far deeper than anything that Ono caused. They might choose UC as a partner solely to block Miami having anything to do with the deal.

Maybe I missed it. What did Ono do to create bad blood with osu? Why does osu have bad blood with miami? osu has done a great job diverting funding away from miami for years.

Regarding Ono and OSU, two major things. First, he went around giving interviews calling for "multiple flagships," which was something that was never going to happen but was bound to antagonize OSU given the history of the system. Second, he was "rumored" to have been caught making excuses with Cincinnati power brokers after the AAU vote that OSU lobbied the Big Ten schools into blackballing UC (OSU doesn't have that kind of power), and it got back to Columbus.

Regarding OSU and Miami, it's a whole other level of hate. A former Miami President was Jim Rhodes' higher ed Chancellor and was instrumental in forcing OSU into open admissions in the sixties and seventies. OSU fell behind their Big Ten peers while Miami was allowed to backdoor their way into selective admissions by not being forced to build enough dorm space for the exploding baby boom enrollment. Time may have softened some of the animosity, but there was a time that the powers that be at OSU would have wiped their ass with Miami if they could have.

(10-21-2020 06:35 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 11:59 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:33 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:24 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 09:26 PM)Cattidude Wrote:  This might have been in one of the other threads about higher education in Ohio but some people mentioned that UC should go after Wright State if it starts to fail but are worried that OSU would try to do the same.

Do you think it would ever be possible to do a partnership like Indiana and Purdue do? Have our own version of an IUPUI?

An interesting idea. I always thought IUPUI was saddled with an identity crisis from the day it began. It's grown to be a large university with a sprawling campus, thanks in part to the IN legislature pumping billions into that state's only major city.

I can't speak to how well that all comes together operationally at IUPUI. I assume students still get a degree from either IU or PU upon completion and those degrees identify them as graduates from the Indianapolis campus? Frankly, if UC can't "own" Wright State outright, such a shared arrangement with OSU could be beneficial to UC, expanding the footprint and co-branding with Ohio State. I doubt that OSU would want any part of such an arrangement though.

I think there's a slim chance, and OSU would probably want UC's committed support on some other items important to them, but there's a chance. Ono's long gone, and with him hopefully some of the bad blood he generated between UC and OSU. Bearcat-Buckeye Day at the statehouse is a small but significant indication that OSU might be willing to work with an Ono-less UC. I doubt they'd ever co-brand the campus with UC though. Probably just keep the Wright State name under joint OSU-UC management.

The fly in the ointment might be Miami. Miami was somewhat of a co-founder of WSU with OSU, and since they're desperately trying to rebrand themselves as a decent STEM school, I'd be surprised if they didn't make some kind of play to be OSU's partner. That being said, it could be the opening that UC needs because the bad blood that OSU feels towards Miami is far deeper than anything that Ono caused. They might choose UC as a partner solely to block Miami having anything to do with the deal.

Maybe I missed it. What did Ono do to create bad blood with osu? Why does osu have bad blood with miami? osu has done a great job diverting funding away from miami for years.

Regarding Ono and OSU, two major things. First, he went around giving interviews calling for "multiple flagships," which was something that was never going to happen but was bound to antagonize OSU given the history of the system. Second, he was "rumored" to have been caught making excuses with Cincinnati power brokers after the AAU vote that OSU lobbied the Big Ten schools into blackballing UC (OSU doesn't have that kind of power), and it got back to Columbus.

Regarding OSU and Miami, it's a whole other level of hate. A former Miami President was Jim Rhodes' higher ed Chancellor and was instrumental in forcing OSU into open admissions in the sixties and seventies. OSU fell behind their Big Ten peers while Miami was allowed to backdoor their way into selective admissions by not being forced to build enough dorm space for the exploding baby boom enrollment. Time may have softened some of the animosity, but there was a time that the powers that be at OSU would have wiped their ass with Miami if they could have.

Sorry for being naïve but I never knew there was an AAU vote when President Ono was here. How often do these types of votes happen? When will be the next one?

(10-21-2020 05:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Again with this trope?

I already addressed this earlier. Toledo competes with Memphis and USF just as much as it does with Akron and OU. And you can't "combine resources" of two graduate programs - it doesn't help anything. Even if you could literally centrally plan the state system and transfer funds from OU's history department to Toledo's history department, they're still judged on the quality of the professors, and that doesn't increase with department size.

Central planning doesn't work. Full stop. Not in car production, not in health care, and certainly not in education.

California's citizens wish they had Ohio's system. Seriously, they hate their system. I lived there for 3 years, and it was constantly in the news. It provides very little opportunity for most of California citizens due to the lack of duplication of programs. As a result, CA is the 4th biggest net exporter of students after adjusting for size.

States that export the most students/capita: New Jersey, Alaska, Illinois, California, Maryland, and Minnesota

All of those states except Illinois have taken your advice and restricted the choice of programs for their students by centralizing decision making on what programs to offer. (Illinois also restricts choice, but that's more due to a lack of investment than centralized decision making). Students are fleeing as a result of that policy.

States that import students (like Iowa, Arizona, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina, and Mississippi) have a lot of duplication of graduate programs.


This also matters because higher education is a HUGE export industry. Alabama had a net import of 7,200 freshmen to its state institutions in 2019 because it built up so much excess capacity. 7,200 * 44,000 (out-of-state tuition, room, & board at U of A) * 4 years = $1.27 billion.

Bolded, it's not so much combining. It's saying that not every state university needs to continue offering graduate degrees in small enrollment disciplines, especially in some social sciences, history, or humanities where you may have several more highly compensated, tenured faculty supporting a similarly small number of students.

I'm not suggesting layoffs; just putting an expiration date on such programs and deciding that northwest Ohio doesn't need a masters level program in sociology at Bowling Green if there is one within a commutable distance at Toledo.

(10-22-2020 07:47 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 05:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(09-26-2020 10:46 AM)ucbandguy Wrote:  I just want to add a post to thank all who have contributed to this thread. This is one of the more factual, intelligent, and useful discussions I have seen on any board, much less a sports board.

There is a place for rah, rah threads. But I gotta tell you, I really have enjoyed this one. Well done, one and all.

Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Again with this trope?

I already addressed this earlier. Toledo competes with Memphis and USF just as much as it does with Akron and OU. And you can't "combine resources" of two graduate programs - it doesn't help anything. Even if you could literally centrally plan the state system and transfer funds from OU's history department to Toledo's history department, they're still judged on the quality of the professors, and that doesn't increase with department size.

Central planning doesn't work. Full stop. Not in car production, not in health care, and certainly not in education.

California's citizens wish they had Ohio's system. Seriously, they hate their system. I lived there for 3 years, and it was constantly in the news. It provides very little opportunity for most of California citizens due to the lack of duplication of programs. As a result, CA is the 4th biggest net exporter of students after adjusting for size.

States that export the most students/capita: New Jersey, Alaska, Illinois, California, Maryland, and Minnesota

All of those states except Illinois have taken your advice and restricted the choice of programs for their students by centralizing decision making on what programs to offer. (Illinois also restricts choice, but that's more due to a lack of investment than centralized decision making). Students are fleeing as a result of that policy.

States that import students (like Iowa, Arizona, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina, and Mississippi) have a lot of duplication of graduate programs.


This also matters because higher education is a HUGE export industry. Alabama had a net import of 7,200 freshmen to its state institutions in 2019 because it built up so much excess capacity. 7,200 * 44,000 (out-of-state tuition, room, & board at U of A) * 4 years = $1.27 billion.

Bolded, it's not so much combining. It's saying that not every state university needs to continue offering graduate degrees in small enrollment disciplines, especially in some social sciences, history, or humanities where you may have several more highly compensated, tenured faculty supporting a similarly small number of students.

I'm not suggesting layoffs; just putting an expiration date on such programs and deciding that northwest Ohio doesn't need a masters level program in sociology at Bowling Green if there is one within a commutable distance at Toledo.

I think a posted this a few pages back, there are 8 colleges and universities within 30 miles of Tiffin, Ohio plus one JUCO. Expand that out to 50 miles and there 24 colleges. I accept the good Captain’s arguement that this provides choice for the Ohio citizenry but this is overkill.

(10-21-2020 08:41 PM)ZCat Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 06:35 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 11:59 AM)bearcatmill Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:33 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-20-2020 07:24 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  An interesting idea. I always thought IUPUI was saddled with an identity crisis from the day it began. It's grown to be a large university with a sprawling campus, thanks in part to the IN legislature pumping billions into that state's only major city.

I can't speak to how well that all comes together operationally at IUPUI. I assume students still get a degree from either IU or PU upon completion and those degrees identify them as graduates from the Indianapolis campus? Frankly, if UC can't "own" Wright State outright, such a shared arrangement with OSU could be beneficial to UC, expanding the footprint and co-branding with Ohio State. I doubt that OSU would want any part of such an arrangement though.

I think there's a slim chance, and OSU would probably want UC's committed support on some other items important to them, but there's a chance. Ono's long gone, and with him hopefully some of the bad blood he generated between UC and OSU. Bearcat-Buckeye Day at the statehouse is a small but significant indication that OSU might be willing to work with an Ono-less UC. I doubt they'd ever co-brand the campus with UC though. Probably just keep the Wright State name under joint OSU-UC management.

The fly in the ointment might be Miami. Miami was somewhat of a co-founder of WSU with OSU, and since they're desperately trying to rebrand themselves as a decent STEM school, I'd be surprised if they didn't make some kind of play to be OSU's partner. That being said, it could be the opening that UC needs because the bad blood that OSU feels towards Miami is far deeper than anything that Ono caused. They might choose UC as a partner solely to block Miami having anything to do with the deal.

Maybe I missed it. What did Ono do to create bad blood with osu? Why does osu have bad blood with miami? osu has done a great job diverting funding away from miami for years.

Regarding Ono and OSU, two major things. First, he went around giving interviews calling for "multiple flagships," which was something that was never going to happen but was bound to antagonize OSU given the history of the system. Second, he was "rumored" to have been caught making excuses with Cincinnati power brokers after the AAU vote that OSU lobbied the Big Ten schools into blackballing UC (OSU doesn't have that kind of power), and it got back to Columbus.

Regarding OSU and Miami, it's a whole other level of hate. A former Miami President was Jim Rhodes' higher ed Chancellor and was instrumental in forcing OSU into open admissions in the sixties and seventies. OSU fell behind their Big Ten peers while Miami was allowed to backdoor their way into selective admissions by not being forced to build enough dorm space for the exploding baby boom enrollment. Time may have softened some of the animosity, but there was a time that the powers that be at OSU would have wiped their ass with Miami if they could have.

Sorry for being naïve but I never knew there was an AAU vote when President Ono was here. How often do these types of votes happen? When will be the next one?

Yes, I believe the vote resulted in nobody being elected, and anyone who knew anything about the relative pecking order knew that Utah was next public in, which is exactly what happened when they held the next vote about five years later. It seems like if they vote twice a decade, that's about the most frequent things change.

UC is in a very small group with a realistic chance in the next ten years (NC State is another), but it has some work to do, particularly in the strength of our Arts & Sciences departments and reputation. Pinto has taken AAU membership off the agenda for now and rightly focused everything on getting a Comprehensive Cancer Center designation first.

(10-22-2020 08:01 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 07:47 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 05:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-18-2020 01:37 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Yes, I echo that sentiment! I’ve mentioned before how I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
My question though: is any change really going to happen?

Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Again with this trope?

I already addressed this earlier. Toledo competes with Memphis and USF just as much as it does with Akron and OU. And you can't "combine resources" of two graduate programs - it doesn't help anything. Even if you could literally centrally plan the state system and transfer funds from OU's history department to Toledo's history department, they're still judged on the quality of the professors, and that doesn't increase with department size.

Central planning doesn't work. Full stop. Not in car production, not in health care, and certainly not in education.

California's citizens wish they had Ohio's system. Seriously, they hate their system. I lived there for 3 years, and it was constantly in the news. It provides very little opportunity for most of California citizens due to the lack of duplication of programs. As a result, CA is the 4th biggest net exporter of students after adjusting for size.

States that export the most students/capita: New Jersey, Alaska, Illinois, California, Maryland, and Minnesota

All of those states except Illinois have taken your advice and restricted the choice of programs for their students by centralizing decision making on what programs to offer. (Illinois also restricts choice, but that's more due to a lack of investment than centralized decision making). Students are fleeing as a result of that policy.

States that import students (like Iowa, Arizona, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina, and Mississippi) have a lot of duplication of graduate programs.


This also matters because higher education is a HUGE export industry. Alabama had a net import of 7,200 freshmen to its state institutions in 2019 because it built up so much excess capacity. 7,200 * 44,000 (out-of-state tuition, room, & board at U of A) * 4 years = $1.27 billion.

Bolded, it's not so much combining. It's saying that not every state university needs to continue offering graduate degrees in small enrollment disciplines, especially in some social sciences, history, or humanities where you may have several more highly compensated, tenured faculty supporting a similarly small number of students.

I'm not suggesting layoffs; just putting an expiration date on such programs and deciding that northwest Ohio doesn't need a masters level program in sociology at Bowling Green if there is one within a commutable distance at Toledo.

I think a posted this a few pages back, there are 8 colleges and universities within 30 miles of Tiffin, Ohio plus one JUCO. Expand that out to 50 miles and there 24 colleges. I accept the good Captain’s arguement that this provides choice for the Ohio citizenry but this is overkill.

I'm going to make a wild guess that that number is going to contract considerably in the next few years as the number of college bound students in Ohio continues to dwindle. The amount of 4-year privates in Ohio is astronomical.

Also, back to the primary point...I look at it like this. At the moment, to support electives and ensure comprehensive status, a school like Toledo supports a History Department with 8 FT Faculty Lines for a department that only services 87 total students as history majors/graduate students. To compare, there are 7 FT Faculty Lines in their Chemical Engineering Department, which has just over 350 students currently and was the most lucrative department by research expenditures in the past two FYs. My suggestion is a State centralized elective structure OR efficiency assessments to allow for the combination of programs regionally which would lead to reallocation institutional resources as above, not reallocating resources across the state, as that isn't how it works (Thank you Captain for explaining why so that I don't have to). To me, you should spend money where you make money, and right now, because Institutions and their idea of "competition" means everyone has to have everything, that isn't truly possible. I've laid it out before, but I still think the way forward is something like this:

Northwest Ohio Regional Educational Consortium-
Bowling Green Campus: Environmental Sciences, Social Sciences, Fine Arts and Education
Toledo Campus: Engineering, Medicine, Nursing, Health Sciences (including Pharmacy), Law, and Hard Sciences
Shared Programs: Business and State Mandated Core Electives

Northeast Ohio Regional Education Consortium-
Kent Campus: Nursing, Social Sciences, Education, and Fine Arts
Akron Campus: Engineering, Business, Law and Criminal Justice, and Health Sciences
Shared: Medicine (already being done at NEOMED), Natural Sciences, and Electives

Ohio State: Mothership/Comprehensive
UC: Mothership/Comprehensive

OU: Has to do it's own thing because that's the only SEOH IHE
MU: Liberal Arts as normal

Wright State...your guess is as good as mine, maybe and UC/MU Joint Venture
Cleveland State...could join the merger with KSU and Akron or proceed as usual

Most Private Schools: Failing Budgetarily as expected

(10-22-2020 08:44 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 08:01 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 07:47 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 05:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-19-2020 08:01 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Bolded, I think it's inevitable in Ohio's publics given declining enrollments and increasing costs to serve.

It's "out of sight, out of mind" for most taxpayers today but once the story is told widely many will be left wondering about the needless proliferation and duplication of graduate programs in small enrollment disciplines as tuition steadily increases.

Ohio leadership should get ahead of this issue now and show a way forward for our Research 1's to be national leaders and for a smaller group of regional teaching institutions to be the best they can be in that realm. But those regionals should not be squandering tax dollars trying in vain to become the next OSU or UC.

Again with this trope?

I already addressed this earlier. Toledo competes with Memphis and USF just as much as it does with Akron and OU. And you can't "combine resources" of two graduate programs - it doesn't help anything. Even if you could literally centrally plan the state system and transfer funds from OU's history department to Toledo's history department, they're still judged on the quality of the professors, and that doesn't increase with department size.

Central planning doesn't work. Full stop. Not in car production, not in health care, and certainly not in education.

California's citizens wish they had Ohio's system. Seriously, they hate their system. I lived there for 3 years, and it was constantly in the news. It provides very little opportunity for most of California citizens due to the lack of duplication of programs. As a result, CA is the 4th biggest net exporter of students after adjusting for size.

States that export the most students/capita: New Jersey, Alaska, Illinois, California, Maryland, and Minnesota

All of those states except Illinois have taken your advice and restricted the choice of programs for their students by centralizing decision making on what programs to offer. (Illinois also restricts choice, but that's more due to a lack of investment than centralized decision making). Students are fleeing as a result of that policy.

States that import students (like Iowa, Arizona, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina, and Mississippi) have a lot of duplication of graduate programs.


This also matters because higher education is a HUGE export industry. Alabama had a net import of 7,200 freshmen to its state institutions in 2019 because it built up so much excess capacity. 7,200 * 44,000 (out-of-state tuition, room, & board at U of A) * 4 years = $1.27 billion.

Bolded, it's not so much combining. It's saying that not every state university needs to continue offering graduate degrees in small enrollment disciplines, especially in some social sciences, history, or humanities where you may have several more highly compensated, tenured faculty supporting a similarly small number of students.

I'm not suggesting layoffs; just putting an expiration date on such programs and deciding that northwest Ohio doesn't need a masters level program in sociology at Bowling Green if there is one within a commutable distance at Toledo.

I think a posted this a few pages back, there are 8 colleges and universities within 30 miles of Tiffin, Ohio plus one JUCO. Expand that out to 50 miles and there 24 colleges. I accept the good Captain’s arguement that this provides choice for the Ohio citizenry but this is overkill.

I'm going to make a wild guess that that number is going to contract considerably in the next few years as the number of college bound students in Ohio continues to dwindle. The amount of 4-year privates in Ohio is astronomical.

Also, back to the primary point...I look at it like this. At the moment, to support electives and ensure comprehensive status, a school like Toledo supports a History Department with 8 FT Faculty Lines for a department that only services 87 total students as history majors/graduate students. To compare, there are 7 FT Faculty Lines in their Chemical Engineering Department, which has just over 350 students currently and was the most lucrative department by research expenditures in the past two FYs. My suggestion is a State centralized elective structure OR efficiency assessments to allow for the combination of programs regionally which would lead to reallocation institutional resources as above, not reallocating resources across the state, as that isn't how it works (Thank you Captain for explaining why so that I don't have to). To me, you should spend money where you make money, and right now, because Institutions and their idea of "competition" means everyone has to have everything, that isn't truly possible. I've laid it out before, but I still think the way forward is something like this:

Northwest Ohio Regional Educational Consortium-
Bowling Green Campus: Environmental Sciences, Social Sciences, Fine Arts and Education
Toledo Campus: Engineering, Medicine, Nursing, Health Sciences (including Pharmacy), Law, and Hard Sciences
Shared Programs: Business and State Mandated Core Electives

Northeast Ohio Regional Education Consortium-
Kent Campus: Nursing, Social Sciences, Education, and Fine Arts
Akron Campus: Engineering, Business, Law and Criminal Justice, and Health Sciences
Shared: Medicine (already being done at NEOMED), Natural Sciences, and Electives

Ohio State: Mothership/Comprehensive
UC: Mothership/Comprehensive

OU: Has to do it's own thing because that's the only SEOH IHE
MU: Liberal Arts as normal

Wright State...your guess is as good as mine, maybe and UC/MU Joint Venture
Cleveland State...could join the merger with KSU and Akron or proceed as usual

Most Private Schools: Failing Budgetarily as expected

I'd object to calling Miami "liberal arts." I know they like to brand themselves that way, but they're more of an "undergraduate focused vocational school" since two-thirds of their students major in business or history.

(10-23-2020 08:13 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 08:44 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 08:01 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 07:47 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(10-21-2020 05:44 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Again with this trope?

I already addressed this earlier. Toledo competes with Memphis and USF just as much as it does with Akron and OU. And you can't "combine resources" of two graduate programs - it doesn't help anything. Even if you could literally centrally plan the state system and transfer funds from OU's history department to Toledo's history department, they're still judged on the quality of the professors, and that doesn't increase with department size.

Central planning doesn't work. Full stop. Not in car production, not in health care, and certainly not in education.

California's citizens wish they had Ohio's system. Seriously, they hate their system. I lived there for 3 years, and it was constantly in the news. It provides very little opportunity for most of California citizens due to the lack of duplication of programs. As a result, CA is the 4th biggest net exporter of students after adjusting for size.

States that export the most students/capita: New Jersey, Alaska, Illinois, California, Maryland, and Minnesota

All of those states except Illinois have taken your advice and restricted the choice of programs for their students by centralizing decision making on what programs to offer. (Illinois also restricts choice, but that's more due to a lack of investment than centralized decision making). Students are fleeing as a result of that policy.

States that import students (like Iowa, Arizona, Utah, Indiana, North Carolina, and Mississippi) have a lot of duplication of graduate programs.


This also matters because higher education is a HUGE export industry. Alabama had a net import of 7,200 freshmen to its state institutions in 2019 because it built up so much excess capacity. 7,200 * 44,000 (out-of-state tuition, room, & board at U of A) * 4 years = $1.27 billion.

Bolded, it's not so much combining. It's saying that not every state university needs to continue offering graduate degrees in small enrollment disciplines, especially in some social sciences, history, or humanities where you may have several more highly compensated, tenured faculty supporting a similarly small number of students.

I'm not suggesting layoffs; just putting an expiration date on such programs and deciding that northwest Ohio doesn't need a masters level program in sociology at Bowling Green if there is one within a commutable distance at Toledo.

I think a posted this a few pages back, there are 8 colleges and universities within 30 miles of Tiffin, Ohio plus one JUCO. Expand that out to 50 miles and there 24 colleges. I accept the good Captain’s arguement that this provides choice for the Ohio citizenry but this is overkill.

I'm going to make a wild guess that that number is going to contract considerably in the next few years as the number of college bound students in Ohio continues to dwindle. The amount of 4-year privates in Ohio is astronomical.

Also, back to the primary point...I look at it like this. At the moment, to support electives and ensure comprehensive status, a school like Toledo supports a History Department with 8 FT Faculty Lines for a department that only services 87 total students as history majors/graduate students. To compare, there are 7 FT Faculty Lines in their Chemical Engineering Department, which has just over 350 students currently and was the most lucrative department by research expenditures in the past two FYs. My suggestion is a State centralized elective structure OR efficiency assessments to allow for the combination of programs regionally which would lead to reallocation institutional resources as above, not reallocating resources across the state, as that isn't how it works (Thank you Captain for explaining why so that I don't have to). To me, you should spend money where you make money, and right now, because Institutions and their idea of "competition" means everyone has to have everything, that isn't truly possible. I've laid it out before, but I still think the way forward is something like this:

Northwest Ohio Regional Educational Consortium-
Bowling Green Campus: Environmental Sciences, Social Sciences, Fine Arts and Education
Toledo Campus: Engineering, Medicine, Nursing, Health Sciences (including Pharmacy), Law, and Hard Sciences
Shared Programs: Business and State Mandated Core Electives

Northeast Ohio Regional Education Consortium-
Kent Campus: Nursing, Social Sciences, Education, and Fine Arts
Akron Campus: Engineering, Business, Law and Criminal Justice, and Health Sciences
Shared: Medicine (already being done at NEOMED), Natural Sciences, and Electives

Ohio State: Mothership/Comprehensive
UC: Mothership/Comprehensive

OU: Has to do it's own thing because that's the only SEOH IHE
MU: Liberal Arts as normal

Wright State...your guess is as good as mine, maybe and UC/MU Joint Venture
Cleveland State...could join the merger with KSU and Akron or proceed as usual

Most Private Schools: Failing Budgetarily as expected

I'd object to calling Miami "liberal arts." I know they like to brand themselves that way, but they're more of an "undergraduate focused vocational school" since two-thirds of their students major in business or history.

Ok, point conceded...that was more a comment about them continuing as normal.

(10-23-2020 08:20 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-23-2020 08:13 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 08:44 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 08:01 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(10-22-2020 07:47 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Bolded, it's not so much combining. It's saying that not every state university needs to continue offering graduate degrees in small enrollment disciplines, especially in some social sciences, history, or humanities where you may have several more highly compensated, tenured faculty supporting a similarly small number of students.

I'm not suggesting layoffs; just putting an expiration date on such programs and deciding that northwest Ohio doesn't need a masters level program in sociology at Bowling Green if there is one within a commutable distance at Toledo.

I think a posted this a few pages back, there are 8 colleges and universities within 30 miles of Tiffin, Ohio plus one JUCO. Expand that out to 50 miles and there 24 colleges. I accept the good Captain’s arguement that this provides choice for the Ohio citizenry but this is overkill.

I'm going to make a wild guess that that number is going to contract considerably in the next few years as the number of college bound students in Ohio continues to dwindle. The amount of 4-year privates in Ohio is astronomical.

Also, back to the primary point...I look at it like this. At the moment, to support electives and ensure comprehensive status, a school like Toledo supports a History Department with 8 FT Faculty Lines for a department that only services 87 total students as history majors/graduate students. To compare, there are 7 FT Faculty Lines in their Chemical Engineering Department, which has just over 350 students currently and was the most lucrative department by research expenditures in the past two FYs. My suggestion is a State centralized elective structure OR efficiency assessments to allow for the combination of programs regionally which would lead to reallocation institutional resources as above, not reallocating resources across the state, as that isn't how it works (Thank you Captain for explaining why so that I don't have to). To me, you should spend money where you make money, and right now, because Institutions and their idea of "competition" means everyone has to have everything, that isn't truly possible. I've laid it out before, but I still think the way forward is something like this:

Northwest Ohio Regional Educational Consortium-
Bowling Green Campus: Environmental Sciences, Social Sciences, Fine Arts and Education
Toledo Campus: Engineering, Medicine, Nursing, Health Sciences (including Pharmacy), Law, and Hard Sciences
Shared Programs: Business and State Mandated Core Electives

Northeast Ohio Regional Education Consortium-
Kent Campus: Nursing, Social Sciences, Education, and Fine Arts
Akron Campus: Engineering, Business, Law and Criminal Justice, and Health Sciences
Shared: Medicine (already being done at NEOMED), Natural Sciences, and Electives

Ohio State: Mothership/Comprehensive
UC: Mothership/Comprehensive

OU: Has to do it's own thing because that's the only SEOH IHE
MU: Liberal Arts as normal

Wright State...your guess is as good as mine, maybe and UC/MU Joint Venture
Cleveland State...could join the merger with KSU and Akron or proceed as usual

Most Private Schools: Failing Budgetarily as expected

I'd object to calling Miami "liberal arts." I know they like to brand themselves that way, but they're more of an "undergraduate focused vocational school" since two-thirds of their students major in business or history.

Ok, point conceded...that was more a comment about them continuing as normal.

"business or education" I have no idea why I wrote history other than it was early and I was on my fist cup of coffee. In any event, Miami students do not go there to major in history

By the way, anyone who thinks that OSU doesn't have the inside track to take over WSU and establish any partnerships with WPAFB that they deem fit should read this. My point is that it's better to be the junior partner with the 800 lb gorilla than their enemy.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2020/11...604350971/

I read where we are going to be waiving the SAT and ACT's for the next couple of years. Are we going to go back to the days of basically admitting everyone, especially if they check off the right boxes with respect to what school they come from, home situation, socio-economic factors, etc.? How is this going to effect our standings in various publications (USNWR, Forbes, etc.).

https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/2020/04/n20911645.html