(10-14-2020 09:55 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(10-14-2020 08:08 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(10-14-2020 07:54 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(10-14-2020 01:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  Markets don’t matter anymore, plus Cincinnati only gets the ACC in Cincinnati. Ohio State gets the ACC in Ohio, but that’s not happening.

WVU has a large presence in DC, so if you’re making a market argument you can’t ignore that.

WVU would have gotten in over Louisville had they been available. Flaming couches and all.

I mean, I guess they have a presence in DC after the Skins, Caps, Nats, Wizards, United, Ravens, Orioles, Mystics, Georgetown, Maryland, UVA, Virginia Tech, George Washington, Howard, American, and probably a slew of other schools not in the area. They aren't covered at all and their alumni presence isn't noticeably larger than other non-DMV colleges.

I didn’t realize we were looking at hockey and women’s basketball.

You apparently didn't realize you were talking about WVU, either.

Perhaps I’m thinking of it the other way around: Washington, DC programming is featured in West Virginia. That’s why it seems like a natural fit.

(10-14-2020 01:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  Markets don’t matter anymore, plus Cincinnati only gets the ACC in Cincinnati. Ohio State gets the ACC in Ohio, but that’s not happening.

WVU has a large presence in DC, so if you’re making a market argument you can’t ignore that.

WVU would have gotten in over Louisville had they been available. Flaming couches and all.

Don't start believing that propaganda.
Do you actually believe that if the Tar Heels started playing in the B1G or the SEC that you as a Tar Heel fan wouldn't start watching other league games for those conferences? That's market.
You've never watched another ACC game in hopes that the bad guys will lose?

North Carolina has about 11 million people and the Tar Heels have a lot of fans....Market is shifting the focus of those fans in another direction which is still worth a lot of money to advertisers.
The ideal 16th member of the ACC would be Texas. Why? 29 million people live in Texas, and Texas being the state University commands a lot of eyeballs....Market!

Get with the program, after all it's just for fun.

Out of curiosity, had the Big 12 and ACC invited WVU at the same time, which conference would they have picked?

If the Big 12 knew about a simultaneous ACC Offer do they try sweetening the deal by also inviting nearby Louisville and Cincinnati?

(10-15-2020 03:27 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Out of curiosity, had the Big 12 and ACC invited WVU at the same time, which conference would they have picked?

If the Big 12 knew about a simultaneous ACC Offer do they try sweetening the deal by also inviting nearby Louisville and Cincinnati?

The Mountaineers most common P5 rivals:

1) Pitt
2) Syracuse
3) Penn State
4) Maryland
5) Virginia Tech
6) Rutgers
7) Boston College
8) UVA
9) Miami
10) Kentucky

Assuming WVU had a choice of P5 membership...
If money is not a consideration, WVU chooses the ACC (#1,2,5,7,8&9 all-time rivals).
If money is a consideration, they choose the BIG (#3,4&6 rivals...and solid geographic fit).
If the ACC and BIG aren’t available, then the SEC (#10 rival) is a reasonable geographic fit.

The B12 made sense for WVU because they wanted to be in a Power conference...and they got (what they thought) was the last ticket into the P5.

(10-15-2020 08:12 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(10-14-2020 01:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  Markets don’t matter anymore, plus Cincinnati only gets the ACC in Cincinnati. Ohio State gets the ACC in Ohio, but that’s not happening.

WVU has a large presence in DC, so if you’re making a market argument you can’t ignore that.

WVU would have gotten in over Louisville had they been available. Flaming couches and all.

Don't start believing that propaganda.
Do you actually believe that if the Tar Heels started playing in the B1G or the SEC that you as a Tar Heel fan wouldn't start watching other league games for those conferences? That's market.
You've never watched another ACC game in hopes that the bad guys will lose?

North Carolina has about 11 million people and the Tar Heels have a lot of fans....Market is shifting the focus of those fans in another direction which is still worth a lot of money to advertisers.
The ideal 16th member of the ACC would be Texas. Why? 29 million people live in Texas, and Texas being the state University commands a lot of eyeballs....Market!

Get with the program, after all it's just for fun.

California has 39 million people. Should the ACC go for Berkeley and/or UCLA too? Eventually you have to take into account geography. I thought Louisville was a geographic stretch because they weren't an "Atlantic" state.

I wish old Bitcruncher were here to see me eating my words.

Stadium: 60,000
Arena: 14,000

Long-standing rivalries with Pitt, Syracuse, and Virginia Tech. Plus an ancient rivalry with Virginia. Those games would attract a national audience. A national championship caliber basketball program. A huge fan base, with yes, a large presence on the east coast.

WVU’s brand value shoots up in the ACC. Backyard Brawl is a rivalry that’s garnered national interest. They have other historical rivals that would drive interest in the region. Markets are always important, but WVU is strong enough to make an exception.

WVU is valuable to the ACC even if they aren’t winning.

I believe WVU will be in the ACC one day, but couldn’t tell you if the timeline is 5 or 20 years.

(10-15-2020 11:14 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  WVU’s brand value shoots up in the ACC. Backyard Brawl is a rivalry that’s garnered national interest. They have other historical rivals that would drive interest in the region. Markets are always important, but WVU is strong enough to make an exception.

WVU is valuable to the ACC even if they aren’t winning.

I believe WVU will be in the ACC one day, but couldn’t tell you if the timeline is 5 or 20 years.

WVU’s brand value also shoots-up in the BIG. Penn State v WVU and UMD v WVU would be solid TV and regional rivalries. Even though it’s not been historically a game, OSU v WVU could develop nicely as a rivalry. Not suggesting that the BIG needs WVU...and the BIG’s (ahem, MI/NW/IL/WI) preference for academically homogeneous schools makes WVU a nearly toxic discussion.

The point is that WVU has untapped revenue and TV potential if it could align with a conference that provides a better fit for their successful sports programs.

B12 membership is far better than not being in a power conference. WVU made the right choice by securing its spot at a time of uncertainty. Nevertheless, WVU has actually lost a lot of brand value with the disintegration of the old Big East; having to break a lot of good natural rivalries and having its athletes travel long distances in order to maintain high-level competition.

(10-16-2020 07:53 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(10-15-2020 11:14 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  WVU’s brand value shoots up in the ACC. Backyard Brawl is a rivalry that’s garnered national interest. They have other historical rivals that would drive interest in the region. Markets are always important, but WVU is strong enough to make an exception.

WVU is valuable to the ACC even if they aren’t winning.

I believe WVU will be in the ACC one day, but couldn’t tell you if the timeline is 5 or 20 years.

WVU’s brand value also shoots-up in the BIG. Penn State v WVU and UMD v WVU would be solid TV and regional rivalries. Even though it’s not been historically a game, OSU v WVU could develop nicely as a rivalry. Not suggesting that the BIG needs WVU...and the BIG’s (ahem, MI/NW/IL/WI) preference for academically homogeneous schools makes WVU a nearly toxic discussion.

The point is that WVU has untapped revenue and TV potential if it could align with a conference that provides a better fit for their successful sports programs.

B12 membership is far better than not being in a power conference. WVU made the right choice by securing its spot at a time of uncertainty. Nevertheless, WVU has actually lost a lot of brand value with the disintegration of the old Big East; having to break a lot of good natural rivalries and having its athletes travel long distances in order to maintain high-level competition.

The problem with WVU is it is a flagship to only the 39th largest state with an entire population of under 1.8m. There is no smaller state with a P5 school in it, and only FBS teams Hawaii and Wyoming play in smaller states. West Virginia also happens to be the poorest state with the third oldest population demographics. WVU has only ~200K living alumni (that's less than half of Purdue and only slightly more than Duke), and is at the rock bottom of all existing power 5 schools academically in nearly any ranking methodology. It has decent sports history but has only finished in the top 10 of the AP 4 times in its history and never higher than 5th. The entire state has a total of 1 four star and 1 three star in Rivals 2021 recruiting rankings. That isn't the most winning combination for conference schools evaluating potential permanent associates or for their media partners if a primary concern is gaining entry into a market or maximizing revenue.

Is WVU's market and the Backyard Brawl and the Schwartzwalder Trophy big enough deals to increase revenue for existing members? Their lack of an invite already answers that for current revenue conditions.

West Virginia may have a small population, but it’s proven it can support two successful FBS teams. WVU was chosen over Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, etc., so I’m really not convinced the age of the state’s population matters. They may only have ~200k living alumni, but they must have many more non-alumni fans that keep their attendance high.

Once again, just by placing a conference member in a state doesn’t guarantee any relative presence in that state. Nobody is running around Tennessee or Louisiana calling them AAC states for instance. ECU isn’t recruiting the heck out of Ohio because they play in Cincinnati every other season. That argument has been proven wrong over and over again. UNC recruited Trubisky without having any team from Ohio on their schedule.

(10-16-2020 04:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia may have a small population, but it’s proven it can support two successful FBS teams. WVU was chosen over Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, etc., so I’m really not convinced the age of the state’s population matters. They may only have ~200k living alumni, but they must have many more non-alumni fans that keep their attendance high.

Once again, just by placing a conference member in a state doesn’t guarantee any relative presence in that state. Nobody is running around Tennessee or Louisiana calling them AAC states for instance. ECU isn’t recruiting the heck out of Ohio because they play in Cincinnati every other season. That argument has been proven wrong over and over again. UNC recruited Trubisky without having any team from Ohio on their schedule.

WVU was chosen over Louisville for the B12 for a couple reasons. One, they were willing to leave the Big East immediately, without notice, and pay a huge exit penalty. WVU and Louisville were both lobbying hard to get in and got their politicians involved. I don't know Louisville's willingness to leave immediately, maybe they were willing, maybe they were negotiating that harder. The other reason was the B12, and their media partners, viewed WVU as an entry into the eastern market in general (that is sort toehold is besides the point for the B10, ACC, and even SEC). It's one of the reason the B12 wanted Pitt at first as well.

WVU has a demographic problem. Sure, they are relevant in WV, and have a lot of fans there, but state of WV really isn't relevant to anyone already in the east nor is it a place where, say ESPN, looks and goes, getting a team in there is going to make your contract more valuable.

All of that said, I think they'd be a good addition to the ACC because they fit geographically and bring competitive teams, I just don't think you'll see it happen because of the above reasons. They just aren't going to make any conference already in the east more money under the current circumstances.

(10-16-2020 07:53 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(10-15-2020 11:14 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  WVU’s brand value shoots up in the ACC. Backyard Brawl is a rivalry that’s garnered national interest. They have other historical rivals that would drive interest in the region. Markets are always important, but WVU is strong enough to make an exception.

WVU is valuable to the ACC even if they aren’t winning.

I believe WVU will be in the ACC one day, but couldn’t tell you if the timeline is 5 or 20 years.

WVU’s brand value also shoots-up in the BIG. Penn State v WVU and UMD v WVU would be solid TV and regional rivalries. Even though it’s not been historically a game, OSU v WVU could develop nicely as a rivalry. Not suggesting that the BIG needs WVU...and the BIG’s (ahem, MI/NW/IL/WI) preference for academically homogeneous schools makes WVU a nearly toxic discussion.

The point is that WVU has untapped revenue and TV potential if it could align with a conference that provides a better fit for their successful sports programs.

B12 membership is far better than not being in a power conference. WVU made the right choice by securing its spot at a time of uncertainty. Nevertheless, WVU has actually lost a lot of brand value with the disintegration of the old Big East; having to break a lot of good natural rivalries and having its athletes travel long distances in order to maintain high-level competition.

The B1G could actually benefit more from West Virginia than the ACC, yet no one touts their movement to the B1G.
If the SEC ever wanted to go to 16, West Virginia is their ideal candidate. An eastern team allows for the SEC east to be: WVU, KY, Tenn, Vandy, SC, Ga, Fla, Auburn, while adding perhaps Oklahoma in the west.

If Notre Dame is going to be #15 (the Irish have already said they would never return to Morgantown) you West Virginia lovers had better place the Mountaineers in a conference other than the ACC.

West Virginia is for lovers?

I don’t think Notre Dame will join for football nor do I think the ACC will add another member. I do however feel WVU is a better choice than the others listed here by leaps and bounds.

(10-17-2020 08:21 AM)XLance Wrote:  If the SEC ever wanted to go to 16, West Virginia is their ideal candidate. An eastern team allows for the SEC east to be: WVU, KY, Tenn, Vandy, SC, Ga, Fla, Auburn, while adding perhaps Oklahoma in the west.

It's probably better geographically for the SEC to then add two western teams, move Missouri to the West, and then move Auburn and Alabama to the East rather than split them up.

(10-16-2020 09:51 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(10-16-2020 04:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia may have a small population, but it’s proven it can support two successful FBS teams. WVU was chosen over Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, etc., so I’m really not convinced the age of the state’s population matters. They may only have ~200k living alumni, but they must have many more non-alumni fans that keep their attendance high.

Once again, just by placing a conference member in a state doesn’t guarantee any relative presence in that state. Nobody is running around Tennessee or Louisiana calling them AAC states for instance. ECU isn’t recruiting the heck out of Ohio because they play in Cincinnati every other season. That argument has been proven wrong over and over again. UNC recruited Trubisky without having any team from Ohio on their schedule.

WVU was chosen over Louisville for the B12 for a couple reasons. One, they were willing to leave the Big East immediately, without notice, and pay a huge exit penalty. WVU and Louisville were both lobbying hard to get in and got their politicians involved. I don't know Louisville's willingness to leave immediately, maybe they were willing, maybe they were negotiating that harder. The other reason was the B12, and their media partners, viewed WVU as an entry into the eastern market in general (that is sort toehold is besides the point for the B10, ACC, and even SEC). It's one of the reason the B12 wanted Pitt at first as well.

WVU has a demographic problem. Sure, they are relevant in WV, and have a lot of fans there, but state of WV really isn't relevant to anyone already in the east nor is it a place where, say ESPN, looks and goes, getting a team in there is going to make your contract more valuable.

All of that said, I think they'd be a good addition to the ACC because they fit geographically and bring competitive teams, I just don't think you'll see it happen because of the above reasons. They just aren't going to make any conference already in the east more money under the current circumstances.

Even though WVU would have much more value in the ACC or BIG, even in the SEC, there is little chance that they ever get an invitation to a power conference that is a better fit.

Their biggest problem is financial potential. Major conferences and college athletics have become big business. WVU’s potential is limited because they are in a relatively small, isolated, impoverished geography and their academics isn’t a positive differentiator. The SEC and BIG are way ahead of other conferences...the ACC is playing catch-up and can’t afford to add a school with limited potential.

What made Louisville the better choice over UConn, wasn’t just their commitment to football. Louisville had also embraced how big time college athletics had evolved...maybe they noticed how Ohio State was growing or maybe nearby Kentucky Wildcats was their model...their revenue, “profits” and valuations were well managed. Louisville was the antithesis of Maryland’s financial struggles. WVU doesn’t provide the same level of confidence in terms of long-term financial viability.

Their best chance to get an invitation is if Pitt and/or VT become more powerful programs in the ACC. Then their natural rivals can advocate for their inclusion. Similarly, Penn State or Maryland could advocate within the BIG...although that seems highly unlikely.

Do you ever wonder if the Big 12 should have taken Louisville over West Virginia as its 10th member?

(10-17-2020 10:30 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Do you ever wonder if the Big 12 should have taken Louisville over West Virginia as its 10th member?

Maybe in hindsight there is a legitimate argument for the B12 and Louisville, but the circumstances at the time of the decision favored WVU. The Mountaineers were vocal in guaranteeing that they would leave the Big East and be available for B12 membership and scheduling...according to the B12’s desires and need. Also, WVU provided better options for potential future growth if necessary by the B12: Rutgers, Temple and UConn to the East; Louisville and Cincinnati to the west; and ACC schools to their north and south (in case the ACC destabilized). Finally, the B12 had been flirting with WVU longer. WVU developed rapport with UT-Austin, which help fend-off the late political push by Louisville.

(10-17-2020 09:44 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(10-16-2020 09:51 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(10-16-2020 04:34 PM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia may have a small population, but it’s proven it can support two successful FBS teams. WVU was chosen over Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, etc., so I’m really not convinced the age of the state’s population matters. They may only have ~200k living alumni, but they must have many more non-alumni fans that keep their attendance high.

Once again, just by placing a conference member in a state doesn’t guarantee any relative presence in that state. Nobody is running around Tennessee or Louisiana calling them AAC states for instance. ECU isn’t recruiting the heck out of Ohio because they play in Cincinnati every other season. That argument has been proven wrong over and over again. UNC recruited Trubisky without having any team from Ohio on their schedule.

WVU was chosen over Louisville for the B12 for a couple reasons. One, they were willing to leave the Big East immediately, without notice, and pay a huge exit penalty. WVU and Louisville were both lobbying hard to get in and got their politicians involved. I don't know Louisville's willingness to leave immediately, maybe they were willing, maybe they were negotiating that harder. The other reason was the B12, and their media partners, viewed WVU as an entry into the eastern market in general (that is sort toehold is besides the point for the B10, ACC, and even SEC). It's one of the reason the B12 wanted Pitt at first as well.

WVU has a demographic problem. Sure, they are relevant in WV, and have a lot of fans there, but state of WV really isn't relevant to anyone already in the east nor is it a place where, say ESPN, looks and goes, getting a team in there is going to make your contract more valuable.

All of that said, I think they'd be a good addition to the ACC because they fit geographically and bring competitive teams, I just don't think you'll see it happen because of the above reasons. They just aren't going to make any conference already in the east more money under the current circumstances.

Even though WVU would have much more value in the ACC or BIG, even in the SEC, there is little chance that they ever get an invitation to a power conference that is a better fit.

Their biggest problem is financial potential. Major conferences and college athletics have become big business. WVU’s potential is limited because they are in a relatively small, isolated, impoverished geography and their academics isn’t a positive differentiator. The SEC and BIG are way ahead of other conferences...the ACC is playing catch-up and can’t afford to add a school with limited potential.

What made Louisville the better choice over UConn, wasn’t just their commitment to football. Louisville had also embraced how big time college athletics had evolved...maybe they noticed how Ohio State was growing or maybe nearby Kentucky Wildcats was their model...their revenue, “profits” and valuations were well managed. Louisville was the antithesis of Maryland’s financial struggles. WVU doesn’t provide the same level of confidence in terms of long-term financial viability.

Their best chance to get an invitation is if Pitt and/or VT become more powerful programs in the ACC. Then their natural rivals can advocate for their inclusion. Similarly, Penn State or Maryland could advocate within the BIG...although that seems highly unlikely.

Pitt did advocate for WVU when Pitt joined the ACC, and also for their inclusion when Pitt was talking to the B12 prior to that. There's also just too much market overlap with WVU and other ACC teams. Louisville added a new market and has better athletic financials. I'm not sure who gets in the ACC if both Louisville and WVU were available in 2014.

(10-17-2020 10:30 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Do you ever wonder if the Big 12 should have taken Louisville over West Virginia as its 10th member?

They probably should have taken both, and one of USF or Cincy to get to 12.

But the B12 was mostly interested in keeping their media contract from being reopened due to dipping below 10 members.

(10-17-2020 11:52 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(10-17-2020 10:30 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Do you ever wonder if the Big 12 should have taken Louisville over West Virginia as its 10th member?

They probably should have taken both, and one of USF or Cincy to get to 12.

But the B12 was mostly interested in keeping their media contract from being reopened due to dipping below 10 members.

This is a scenario I’ve often mulled over. Had someone in the Big 12 war room been adamant about a return to 12 then WVU, Louisville, and Cincinnati all go to the Big 12, Rutgers goes to the Big Ten, and then UConn gets Maryland’s spot in the ACC. Only USF gets forced from the ranks of the big time—they go to C-USA along with 1 of Charlotte/ODU/LA Tech/UTSA.

Temple gets joined by UMass as MAC fb affiliates as originally planned.

The SBC looks something like:

UNT, ULL, ULM, Troy, USA, MTSU, WKU, FAU, FIU + non-fb UALR

Then you got to play the guessing game with the WAC schools: Idaho, NMSU, Texas St, UTSA, and LA Tech. Do they rebuild or do all/some get absorbed by the SBC?

Plus there’s a whole slew of eastern time zone schools that may or may not still be in FCS: Charlotte, ODU, App St, GA South, GA St, CCU, Liberty