Zorch
All American
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I Root For: W&M
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RE: W&M Cuts 7 Sports
(09-27-2020 09:37 AM)Old tribe Wrote: (09-26-2020 11:07 PM)Zorch Wrote: (09-26-2020 06:06 PM)Old tribe Wrote: (09-25-2020 08:20 PM)Zorch Wrote: (09-25-2020 06:38 PM)Tribal Wrote: Samantha Huge:
“We must achieve a shared understanding of what we mean by competitive excellence in intercollegiate athletics. We need to be open about possible disagreements ... and finish this conversation by listening to all of the voices in our community."
The line I bolded above really cracks me up. There will never be a shared understanding of what is meant by competitive excellence in college sports. Most W&M people, including all of the affected student-athletes of the seven dropped teams, know that excellence means 1) success in the classrooms (see the many Academic All-Americans, Rhodes Scholars, CAA Scholar Athlete of the Year awards etc etc etc), 2) success in the conference (W&M leads by a wide margin in the count of CAA championships, 3) success in the NCAA tournament for each sport (and including success on the individual level such as in track or swimming or gymnastics).
Meanwhile, to Huge, success is measured in only three sports (sports in which only one has had any success at all). It is not measured in academics and it is not measured in CAA championships (except as the vehicle to get the team to the NCAA tournament). Does Huge know that there are, what, something like 340 other Div I schools who are also trying to win (and a bunch of them cheat to do so!)? That many (certainly all of the Power 5) have many more resources? That W&M can't recruit the dumdums that other schools recruit? That W&M will almost certainly be "one-and-done" even if it makes the NCAA basketball tournament? That it takes several consecutive appearances before a team loses the "deer in the headlights" look and can actually compete, and that if the appearances are not close to each other then the effect is lost? That the same thing applies to the FCS playoffs? That you have to participate regularly and consecutively in order to build the proper winning mentality that the Marshalls, Georgia Southerns, Appy States, NDSU's, and yes, even JMU's had/have?
So Huge will never agree with what the hundreds of athletes/coaches tell her about what success means at W&M. But she will allow for "disagreement" as she ramrods her will through the Tribe community.
This is, in my opinion, the attitude that has held W&M athletics back for far too long. It's an acceptance of mediocrity because it's seen as being too hard to compete and because W&M is "special." I always point to Harvard when W&M people bring out these talking points. I am very good friends with people who played at basketball at Harvard, with those people graduating in years that span from the mid 90's to the mid 2010's. Harvard had the exact same attitude that Zorch is expressing for a very long time. Luckily for them, they decided to make a shift and put resources into their basketball program, refuse to accept that higher admission standards are an impossible hurdle to overcome, and to not feel bad about trying to win. Lo and behold, they've had a lot of success. They made 4 NCAA tournaments in a row, won games in 2 of those years, and have won the IVY league regular season title 6 out of the past 8 years. They also consistently are in on top 100 recruits and have landed a number of them. All this after having never won more than 19 games in its history until 2010 and not having made the NCAA tournament since 1946.
I get real tired of people claiming W&M can't compete in sports like basketball because we can't recruit "dum dums." Every school, including W&M, makes admissions exceptions for athletes. It's not a good excuse.
It's a fact that success in basketball and football are more valuable to a school than success in other sports. That's what's driving the shift in athletics priorities.
Pardon me for bolding your words above. Where, anywhere, in my post does it say that I accept mediocrity????? On the contrary, I thought that I made it clear that, especially in the non-revenue sports and especially if you have ever read any of my other posts, the Tribe teams are outstanding and well well above mediocre. Academics, CAA Championships, NCAA attendance. Swimming has/had that, Track/Cross Country has/had that, Field Hockey has/had that, Tennis has/had that, Soccer has/had that. I could go on and on. The only sports where we have never won are basketball (even volleyball has won in the past).
Halfway through your post it became clear that the only sport that you were talking about was men's basketball. You clearly agree with the Huge/Rowe model to funnel all resources into the big three and forget about the rest. That is mediocrity -- being good in just one or two things. I would rather the school be well rounded and be good in a lot of things.
Re Harvard -- You say that they have relaxed their admissions standards and that they "are in on" top 100 recruits, etc. Well, DUH!. Anybody who would turn down a "free" (grant-based) education at Harvard really would be too dumb to come here.
Oh, P.S. -- Tell me again, how big is the budget at Harvard? How big is the endowment at Harvard?
Your attitude is definitely accepting mediocrity for basketball. Just excuse after excuse. The reason basketball hasn't had much success historically is because the school has never given it the resources sufficient to create sustained success. And that's because of the attitude that you express, saying that it's too hard to compete with other schools that give basketball more resources and that are committed to winning. There's a reason schools want to win in basketball and football, which have been discussed on this forum many times. You honestly don't think it would help the entire athletic program if basketball went on a run comparable to Harvard's?
Harvard's endowment is not used for athletics. The basketball program raised money from private donors when a group of alumni decided it was time for the program to stop accepting mediocrity.
Your post is absolute nonsense. You say: "The reason basketball hasn't had much success historically is because the school has never given it the resources sufficient to create sustained success." That is total BS. There are plenty of reasons that W&M has not won in basketball that have nothing to do with resources. We did not lose to Delaware in the CAA final because of resources, we lost because Omar Prewitt missed the front end of a one-and-one and because the refs failed to call a charge on the Delaware big man in the final minute and because Thornton didn't pass to Rusthoven on the last play. We didn't lose to Delaware in the first round in 2019 (which got Shaver fired) or to Elon in the first round in 2020 because of resources. We lost because we played worse (coached worse?) than our opponents did. So my point is, we could win with the resources we actually have -- we just didn't. So we don't need to cut sports to divert more resources to the big three, we just need to be better (luckier?) at crunch time.
Also note that I brought up the fact that there are a lot of other schools out there that are trying to win (and a lot of them spend far more than W&M) to make the point that simply allocating more resources to the big three is not going to miraculously mean that all of a sudden W&M will start winning. Other schools want to win too and sometimes they are better than us and sometimes they are not better than us but simply play better than us that day. Killing 7 sports (where we actually DO win) is not going to help football beat JMU/Delaware in the big game or Hofstra in the big basketball game or Drexel/JMU in the big women's basketball game.
It is you who are making excuses and your excuse is that we do not spend enough money on the big three! Apparently, the reason is never that W&M simply did not play well enough to win.
See the post below, from a thread called "The Scar". It clearly lays out that W&M had everything it needed (Nathan Knight) to win but it did not. (Can't blame it all on Shaver because Fischer had Knight, too, and also lost in the first round.)
(03-09-2020 04:19 PM)Zorch Wrote: (03-09-2020 01:51 PM)Tribe32 Wrote: We may not see a player like Nathan Knight for another 50 years. We haven't had a player between Jeff Cohen and Knight (59 years) who was remotely close to either of their talent. I don't think people really appreciate how good Nathan is for a program like ours.
Excellent post and a perfect lead-in to the following observation:
William & Mary -- as a school -- grossly underachieved while featuring Nathan Knight. Note that I am NOT repeat NOT saying that Knight underachieved. On the contrary, he went above and beyond his peers and his number should be retired at the first possible opportunity.
Note also that I am not assigning blame to the current coach, the previous coach, both coaches, ineptness/incompetence on the part of anyone in the athletic department, or just to the cosmic bad luck that inhabits the W&M basketball program. You can choose. I am just observing ....
Nathan Knight is the first CAA player since George Evans (GMU) to win POY and Defensive POY in the same season. Evans did it twice, in 1999 and 2001. By the way, GMU won the CAAT in both 1999 and 2001. I don't remember George Evans ever shooting any 3-pointers. He was a classic back-to-the-basket post man.
A similar player was Odell Hodge of ODU. He played from 1992-1993 to 1996-1997 (he was injured and out all year in 1995). Hodge had numbers very close to Knight's, but better. Hodge had 2117 points and 1086 rebounds. He also had 286 blocks. He was on the all-Defensive team in 1997 (maybe more often but the write-up was meager) and he was the CAA POY and CAAT MVP in both 1994 and 1997. Interestingly, in 1994 Hodge was CAAT MVP and his team lost in the final to JMU. ODU won in 1995 (the year Hodge was injured) and won again in his last year in 1997. I also don't ever remember Hodge shooting a 3-pointer. (One other tidbit -- Hodge currently lives in Brussels, Belgium. Too bad he couldn't have given Andy Van Vliet some power-move pointers while he was there).
So, based on Knight's stats being in the same neighborhood as CAA greats Hodge and Evans, you might expect the same kind of results. Instead, during the last two years (Knight's best years), W&M has bowed out to a worse-seeded team in their first game.
It is clear that W&M underachieved. You assign the blame -- but definitely not Knight's fault.
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