This author of the article has family ties to the swimming program and this is just another hit piece. There were several missteps by athletics and from the school administration on the way to cutting sports. These sports are a black hole when it comes to the university/athletics budget. Swimming as a powerhouse in the CAA...they swim against 5 other schools..that is like being the best at sharpening pencils..not that impressive actually but good on them for their run...also this money they are "raising"...it's called a pledge to donate-there is no money in hand. Volleyball has been a 1 million dollar black hole for many years...all the information is out there if you search for it instead of trying to get people to gather with pitchforks and lanterns. Up until WM cut gymnastics there were not many D1 schools our size that fielded a team that wasn't a club level sport.

Many large athletic programs; Minnesota, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, ECU, ect.., have had to make cuts-what makes any of us think we were exempt. The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

I liked the idea of revamping the athletics training staff, but Korem's position always seemed a little like administrative fluff to me. I do like his lieutenant Kier though. Hopefully he sticks around but it wouldn't surprise me if he follows Korem

(09-16-2020 08:12 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  I liked the idea of revamping the athletics training staff, but Korem's position always seemed a little like administrative fluff to me. I do like his lieutenant Kier though. Hopefully he sticks around but it wouldn't surprise me if he follows Korem

W&M floated a vacancy two months ago, probably to fill Kuehn's vacated slot.

https://jobsearcher.com/j/athletics-perf...nia-QvvBQx

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(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  This author of the article has family ties to the swimming program and this is just another hit piece. There were several missteps by athletics and from the school administration on the way to cutting sports. These sports are a black hole when it comes to the university/athletics budget. Swimming as a powerhouse in the CAA...they swim against 5 other schools..that is like being the best at sharpening pencils..not that impressive actually but good on them for their run...also this money they are "raising"...it's called a pledge to donate-there is no money in hand. Volleyball has been a 1 million dollar black hole for many years...all the information is out there if you search for it instead of trying to get people to gather with pitchforks and lanterns. Up until WM cut gymnastics there were not many D1 schools our size that fielded a team that wasn't a club level sport.

Many large athletic programs; Minnesota, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, ECU, ect.., have had to make cuts-what makes any of us think we were exempt. The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

Every sport at W&M ... every single sport ... is a “black hole” financially.

On the other hand, every sport at W&M ... every single sport ... is a successful student athlete model.

When W&M was founded, there was only one other school in the land. That didn’t stop the school from being founded. Similarly, the number of other like problems is irrelevant to me ... in fact, it’s better for the school in terms of athletic quality if there aren’t “many games in town”.

Our Administration was disingenuous with, or outwardly lied to (or somewhere in the middle), all of the stakeholders, with the exception of a chosen few, and that is a big deal. How on earth do you run a multi-year campaign, bring in over one billion dollars, and nary a peep about the Tribe 7 in that campaign? HOW?

The rationale is the 2025 Vision Report. Fine. The proper approach would have been to combine For the Bold and 2025 Vision, and see where the chips land. That wasn’t done here!

Appalling treatment of the stakeholders. Why would anyone donate to this school while the current Administration is in place when trust has been so seriously eroded?

Frankly, pressure needs to be brought for a “do-over” of For The Bold because of the disingenuous way the Tribe 7 situation has been handled.

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

This might have been satire and I missed the joke, but pretty sure the last place we should be cutting is our investment in the people actually doing the teaching. That is, after all, kind of the point of this institution. Ranking #4 in the nation for undergraduate teaching as we just did is the heart of what makes WM WM.

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  This author of the article has family ties to the swimming program and this is just another hit piece. There were several missteps by athletics and from the school administration on the way to cutting sports. These sports are a black hole when it comes to the university/athletics budget. Swimming as a powerhouse in the CAA...they swim against 5 other schools..that is like being the best at sharpening pencils..not that impressive actually but good on them for their run...also this money they are "raising"...it's called a pledge to donate-there is no money in hand. Volleyball has been a 1 million dollar black hole for many years...all the information is out there if you search for it instead of trying to get people to gather with pitchforks and lanterns. Up until WM cut gymnastics there were not many D1 schools our size that fielded a team that wasn't a club level sport.

Many large athletic programs; Minnesota, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, ECU, ect.., have had to make cuts-what makes any of us think we were exempt. The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

I don't see that article as a "hit job" (I think that your post is more of a hit job than the article is). Here is the full extent of what she writes about W&M -- hardly a "hit job"; there is far worse said every day on Twitter:

"The current direction universities are taking in focusing on the exploitation of amateur athletes is leading schools like William & Mary away from the successful integration of athletics and academics. By cutting seven Olympic sports that have championship records, including nationally ranked athletes, Olympic trials qualifiers, and sizable endowments (resulting in minimal cost to the College), William & Mary exemplifies the move towards prioritizing commercialization and the detrimental shift away from de Coubertin’s powerful and balanced model of athletic and academic integration." ..."Sadly, the College of William & Mary is just one of many examples of a university placing the educational/athletic model on the sacrificial stone."

Moreover, her final paragraph is spot on, especially where she notes the lack of creativity and innovation:

"The current educational/athletics model is broken and the overall well-being and mental health of students is the price that is being paid. Though universities identify mental health as paramount, colleges and their athletic departments are making decisions to the detriment of the mental health of current and future student-athletes. These decisions, demonstrated by the cutting of non-revenue sports, demonstrate a lack of creativity, innovation, and – worse yet – will to protect the overall health and well-being of young people and the academic/athletic balance of the de Coubertin's Olympic model."

I thought that there were several good points, well worth reading. As for professor's salaries, I don't know anything about that ...but I doubt that any of them make more than the $255K that Huge makes.

(09-16-2020 08:54 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

This might have been satire and I missed the joke, but pretty sure the last place we should be cutting is our investment in the people actually doing the teaching. That is, after all, kind of the point of this institution. Ranking #4 in the nation for undergraduate teaching as we just did is the heart of what makes WM WM.

I'm also pretty sure we underpay our professors compared to peer institutions.

As per this site (https://www.insidehighered.com/aaup-comp...ort=desc), UVA, Richmond, Tech, W&L, and Mason all pay their professors more than us (Though especially in the case of Mason cost of living is a huge factor, so our professors probably make more on a relative basis). Looking at all schools, our pay is right in line with Clemson, Iowa State, Syracuse, and South Florida. All fine schools, but probably not the ones we would like to compare ourselves to.

(09-16-2020 08:56 AM)Zorch Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  This author of the article has family ties to the swimming program and this is just another hit piece. There were several missteps by athletics and from the school administration on the way to cutting sports. These sports are a black hole when it comes to the university/athletics budget. Swimming as a powerhouse in the CAA...they swim against 5 other schools..that is like being the best at sharpening pencils..not that impressive actually but good on them for their run...also this money they are "raising"...it's called a pledge to donate-there is no money in hand. Volleyball has been a 1 million dollar black hole for many years...all the information is out there if you search for it instead of trying to get people to gather with pitchforks and lanterns. Up until WM cut gymnastics there were not many D1 schools our size that fielded a team that wasn't a club level sport.

Many large athletic programs; Minnesota, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, ECU, ect.., have had to make cuts-what makes any of us think we were exempt. The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

I don't see that article as a "hit job" (I think that your post is more of a hit job than the article is). Here is the full extent of what she writes about W&M -- hardly a "hit job"; there is far worse said every day on Twitter:

"The current direction universities are taking in focusing on the exploitation of amateur athletes is leading schools like William & Mary away from the successful integration of athletics and academics. By cutting seven Olympic sports that have championship records, including nationally ranked athletes, Olympic trials qualifiers, and sizable endowments (resulting in minimal cost to the College), William & Mary exemplifies the move towards prioritizing commercialization and the detrimental shift away from de Coubertin’s powerful and balanced model of athletic and academic integration." ..."Sadly, the College of William & Mary is just one of many examples of a university placing the educational/athletic model on the sacrificial stone."

Moreover, her final paragraph is spot on, especially where she notes the lack of creativity and innovation:

"The current educational/athletics model is broken and the overall well-being and mental health of students is the price that is being paid. Though universities identify mental health as paramount, colleges and their athletic departments are making decisions to the detriment of the mental health of current and future student-athletes. These decisions, demonstrated by the cutting of non-revenue sports, demonstrate a lack of creativity, innovation, and – worse yet – will to protect the overall health and well-being of young people and the academic/athletic balance of the de Coubertin's Olympic model."

I thought that there were several good points, well worth reading. As for professor's salaries, I don't know anything about that ...but I doubt that any of them make more than the $255K that Huge makes.

Here are some more facts. I'll just leave this here....again the information is out there, just go look for it. I'd be knocking on the administration's doors across campus if you want some more truthiness...what do they have to say??

https://data.richmond.com/salaries/2018/...lliam-mary

Average pay of $73,000 and median pay of $60,000 is nothing. Deduct the outliers (custodial staff on one end and Rowe/Huge on the high end) and that's actually embarrassing. Many associate professors/lecturers are well below $70k. Hampton Roads area Police recruits start in the 40s.

Again, we do more with less everywhere.

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First off, you need to weed through the information to really find the professors. For example, Larry Pulley is listed as a professor. He's the Dean of the business school. Julie Shackford is the women's soccer coach. She's listed as a Lecturer.

Suzanne Raitt, chair of the English department - $127,396
Sara Stafford, chair of the Economics department - $152,925

Those aren't inflated.

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

I really expected the worst take on this to come from the militant "Fire Huge" crowd and yet here we are...

I don't know if I've ever heard someone advocate for moving money from professors to administrators. I mean it's not called professorial bloat...

(09-16-2020 08:30 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  This author of the article has family ties to the swimming program and this is just another hit piece. There were several missteps by athletics and from the school administration on the way to cutting sports. These sports are a black hole when it comes to the university/athletics budget. Swimming as a powerhouse in the CAA...they swim against 5 other schools..that is like being the best at sharpening pencils..not that impressive actually but good on them for their run...also this money they are "raising"...it's called a pledge to donate-there is no money in hand. Volleyball has been a 1 million dollar black hole for many years...all the information is out there if you search for it instead of trying to get people to gather with pitchforks and lanterns. Up until WM cut gymnastics there were not many D1 schools our size that fielded a team that wasn't a club level sport.

Many large athletic programs; Minnesota, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, ECU, ect.., have had to make cuts-what makes any of us think we were exempt. The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

Every sport at W&M ... every single sport ... is a “black hole” financially.

On the other hand, every sport at W&M ... every single sport ... is a successful student athlete model.

When W&M was founded, there was only one other school in the land. That didn’t stop the school from being founded. Similarly, the number of other like problems is irrelevant to me ... in fact, it’s better for the school in terms of athletic quality if there aren’t “many games in town”.

Our Administration was disingenuous with, or outwardly lied to (or somewhere in the middle), all of the stakeholders, with the exception of a chosen few, and that is a big deal. How on earth do you run a multi-year campaign, bring in over one billion dollars, and nary a peep about the Tribe 7 in that campaign? HOW?

The rationale is the 2025 Vision Report. Fine. The proper approach would have been to combine For the Bold and 2025 Vision, and see where the chips land. That wasn’t done here!

Appalling treatment of the stakeholders. Why would anyone donate to this school while the current Administration is in place when trust has been so seriously eroded?

Frankly, pressure needs to be brought for a “do-over” of For The Bold because of the disingenuous way the Tribe 7 situation has been handled.

At the heart of all of this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be. Some want it to continue as a broad based program (more broad than similar sized schools with similar resources) where resources are stretched thin for all teams and athletics doesn't do much to add to W&M's national profile and awareness. Others, including the current administration, want to put more resources towards programs where continued success can enhance W&M's national profile and awareness. So current decisions are being made with that goal in mind.

You can disagree with how the decision to cut was communicated, but this is the real issue. And the decision to take the latter approach to athletics comes from the administration/BOV. So all the vitriol for the AD is misplaced in my opinion. And before Tribal accuses me of being a relative of Huge or Huge herself, let me say I've never met the woman or had any sort of interaction or communication with her in my life.

(09-16-2020 09:53 AM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

I really expected the worst take on this to come from the militant "Fire Huge" crowd and yet here we are...

I don't know if I've ever heard someone advocate for moving money from professors to administrators. I mean it's not called professorial bloat...

Militant? Bwahahaha


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One of the biggest problems with the cuts is that a large percentage of these athletes really are exceptional students who will likely be very successful and in leadership roles in the future, all the while being some of the strongest cheerleaders for WM upon graduation. In particular, Track and Swimming seemed to be very proud of representing WM. We cut them out of the alumni base. They are serious about their sport and will go elsewhere, even to D2/3 in order to compete. We will lose them to other small liberal arts schools. Their future contribution to the school should be evaluated in financial terms. I would bet the ROI is likely in WMs favor and at minimum a wash.

(09-16-2020 09:55 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  At the heart of all of this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be. Some want it to continue as a broad based program (more broad than similar sized schools with similar resources) where resources are stretched thin for all teams and athletics doesn't do much to add to W&M's national profile and awareness. Others, including the current administration, want to put more resources towards programs where continued success can enhance W&M's national profile and awareness. So current decisions are being made with that goal in mind.

You can disagree with how the decision to cut was communicated, but this is the real issue. And the decision to take the latter approach to athletics comes from the administration/BOV. So all the vitriol for the AD is misplaced in my opinion. And before Tribal accuses me of being a relative of Huge or Huge herself, let me say I've never met the woman or had any sort of interaction or communication with her in my life.

Respectfully, I think you're wrong here. For me at least the issue isn't that the BOV is tasking Huge to raise the profile of football and basketball at the expense of our other programs. Generally, I'm a supporter of that move. They're my two favorite sports that the school offers and they hold a prominent place in the national consciousness. I think that increasing their profile would be both good for the school and entertaining for me personally.

My issue is that Huge has took this direction and has gone the underpants gnomes route: Step 1) Cut sports, Step 2) ???, Step 3) Football and basketball are nationally prominent. And I get there's a nebulous idea that we can now shift resources to our "high return" sports but there are just so many questions unanswered. What resources specifically? How much money can you move to those programs? How many scholarships can you move around? What sports do you plan on moving those scholarships to or are you just eliminating them? What's the goal of moving resources to football/basketball? It would be nice to say "we are diverting this money so that we can xxx". Pay the staff more? Pay teams to come to the Hall/Zable? Bolster the renovation process? Bribe the A-10 to let us in? Go FBS? The money she is moving around is mostly donor money so it would be nice if someone would let the donors know what her vision is.

(09-16-2020 09:55 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 08:30 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 08:03 AM)irisheyes0008 Wrote:  This author of the article has family ties to the swimming program and this is just another hit piece. There were several missteps by athletics and from the school administration on the way to cutting sports. These sports are a black hole when it comes to the university/athletics budget. Swimming as a powerhouse in the CAA...they swim against 5 other schools..that is like being the best at sharpening pencils..not that impressive actually but good on them for their run...also this money they are "raising"...it's called a pledge to donate-there is no money in hand. Volleyball has been a 1 million dollar black hole for many years...all the information is out there if you search for it instead of trying to get people to gather with pitchforks and lanterns. Up until WM cut gymnastics there were not many D1 schools our size that fielded a team that wasn't a club level sport.

Many large athletic programs; Minnesota, Central Michigan, Cincinnati, ECU, ect.., have had to make cuts-what makes any of us think we were exempt. The bigger issue is why are professors making so much money compared to the rest of the staff and administrators all across the campus. Bloated professor salaries are the real problem but that is not sexy to talk about.

Every sport at W&M ... every single sport ... is a “black hole” financially.

On the other hand, every sport at W&M ... every single sport ... is a successful student athlete model.

When W&M was founded, there was only one other school in the land. That didn’t stop the school from being founded. Similarly, the number of other like problems is irrelevant to me ... in fact, it’s better for the school in terms of athletic quality if there aren’t “many games in town”.

Our Administration was disingenuous with, or outwardly lied to (or somewhere in the middle), all of the stakeholders, with the exception of a chosen few, and that is a big deal. How on earth do you run a multi-year campaign, bring in over one billion dollars, and nary a peep about the Tribe 7 in that campaign? HOW?

The rationale is the 2025 Vision Report. Fine. The proper approach would have been to combine For the Bold and 2025 Vision, and see where the chips land. That wasn’t done here!

Appalling treatment of the stakeholders. Why would anyone donate to this school while the current Administration is in place when trust has been so seriously eroded?

Frankly, pressure needs to be brought for a “do-over” of For The Bold because of the disingenuous way the Tribe 7 situation has been handled.

At the heart of all of this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be. Some want it to continue as a broad based program (more broad than similar sized schools with similar resources) where resources are stretched thin for all teams and athletics doesn't do much to add to W&M's national profile and awareness. Others, including the current administration, want to put more resources towards programs where continued success can enhance W&M's national profile and awareness. So current decisions are being made with that goal in mind.

You can disagree with how the decision to cut was communicated, but this is the real issue. And the decision to take the latter approach to athletics comes from the administration/BOV. So all the vitriol for the AD is misplaced in my opinion. And before Tribal accuses me of being a relative of Huge or Huge herself, let me say I've never met the woman or had any sort of interaction or communication with her in my life.

Two things made me chuckle.

1. Sounds like Samantha won't communicate with you, either.

2. The sensitive people on this board. You all get so worked up about me stating my opinion about someone you've never met. You do understand this is a massageboard and posters don't have to agree on everything, even anything, right?

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(09-16-2020 10:17 AM)Tribal Wrote:  2. The sensitive people on this board. You all get so worked up about me stating my opinion about someone you've never met. You do understand this is a massageboard and posters don't have to agree on everything, even anything, right?

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Man, your interface is way different than mine. All I get is a quick buzz for a new notification...

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(09-16-2020 09:55 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  At the heart of all of this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be. Some want it to continue as a broad based program (more broad than similar sized schools with similar resources) where resources are stretched thin for all teams and athletics doesn't do much to add to W&M's national profile and awareness. Others, including the current administration, want to put more resources towards programs where continued success can enhance W&M's national profile and awareness. So current decisions are being made with that goal in mind.

And others want both ... like me ... and there a lots of ways to do it ... and none of them have been publicly pushed for by the powers that be.

And if I can't have both, I'm not in favor of your second choice for all of the reasons that I have posted ad nauseum over the years.

However, let's stick with your assertion that "this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be."

Who wants your second choice? Administrators / BOV types.

Who wants your first choice? Basically the entire W&M athletics community, past, present, and future.

So, using your words, this is a disagreement between Administrators / BOV types (who favor your second choice) and the entire W&M athletics community, past, present, and future (who favor your first choice).

Resistance, walk aways, and revolutions happen under those circumstances, unless attempts are made at "buy ins" ... which clearly didn't happen here.

It's only a matter of time before William and Mary has it's own "Boston Tea Party" on this issue of the Tribe 7. Whether it's a lawsuit, demonstration, loss of donor funds, slump in ticket sales, boycott, clothing, something else, or all of the above, not sure ... but something will happen here, beyond what has already happened.

(09-16-2020 09:55 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  And before Tribal accuses me of being a relative of Huge or Huge herself, let me say I've never met the woman or had any sort of interaction or communication with her in my life.

You would have a very different opinion if you had spent any real time with her. Let me just leave it at that.

(09-16-2020 11:14 AM)nj alum Wrote:  

(09-16-2020 09:55 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  At the heart of all of this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be. Some want it to continue as a broad based program (more broad than similar sized schools with similar resources) where resources are stretched thin for all teams and athletics doesn't do much to add to W&M's national profile and awareness. Others, including the current administration, want to put more resources towards programs where continued success can enhance W&M's national profile and awareness. So current decisions are being made with that goal in mind.

And others want both ... like me ... and there a lots of ways to do it ... and none of them have been publicly pushed for by the powers that be.

And if I can't have both, I'm not in favor of your second choice for all of the reasons that I have posted ad nauseum over the years.

However, let's stick with your assertion that "this is a disagreement on what people want athletics at W&M to be."

Who wants your second choice? Administrators / BOV types.

Who wants your first choice? Basically the entire W&M athletics community, past, present, and future.

So, using your words, this is a disagreement between Administrators / BOV types (who favor your second choice) and the entire W&M athletics community, past, present, and future (who favor your first choice).

Resistance, walk aways, and revolutions happen under those circumstances, unless attempts are made at "buy ins" ... which clearly didn't happen here.

It's only a matter of time before William and Mary has it's own "Boston Tea Party" on this issue of the Tribe 7. Whether it's a lawsuit, demonstration, loss of donor funds, slump in ticket sales, boycott, clothing, something else, or all of the above, not sure ... but something will happen here, beyond what has already happened.

I think you're being very presumptuous in saying that the "entire W&M athletics community, past, present, and future" favors the first choice. I know that's not the case. And I think where donor dollars have been directed, and the amounts, would also prove your presumption to be incorrect.

There may be ways to do both for a school with the budget and size of W&M. But I haven't heard anyone offer anything besides trying to raise more money.