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Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 07:17 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  What happens if ND is in the ACC Championship playing for a spot in the playoffs or Orange Bowl instead of the Pinstripe Bowl.
I bet there are quite a few fans who would like to keep that logo next year.

It was in the playoffs in 2018 as a football independent.

Conference membership did not mean anything at all then.

ND has its own contract with the Orange Bowl.

Except that is makes it easier to get into the playoffs.
Also, ND only has the Orange Bowl twice in the cycle. Being part of the ACC can put them yearly.
09-04-2020 03:36 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 03:36 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 07:17 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  What happens if ND is in the ACC Championship playing for a spot in the playoffs or Orange Bowl instead of the Pinstripe Bowl.
I bet there are quite a few fans who would like to keep that logo next year.

It was in the playoffs in 2018 as a football independent.

Conference membership did not mean anything at all then.

ND has its own contract with the Orange Bowl.

Except that is makes it easier to get into the playoffs.
Also, ND only has the Orange Bowl twice in the cycle. Being part of the ACC can put them yearly.

Not even guarantee once, actually.
09-04-2020 03:46 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 03:36 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 07:17 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  What happens if ND is in the ACC Championship playing for a spot in the playoffs or Orange Bowl instead of the Pinstripe Bowl.
I bet there are quite a few fans who would like to keep that logo next year.

It was in the playoffs in 2018 as a football independent.

Conference membership did not mean anything at all then.

ND has its own contract with the Orange Bowl.

Except that is makes it easier to get into the playoffs.
Also, ND only has the Orange Bowl twice in the cycle. Being part of the ACC can put them yearly.

Why does everyone always assume that everyone wants to take the easier route?

What if the easiest route to the playoffs wasn't the main consideration for a program?
09-04-2020 07:24 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
What exactly are ND’s goals?

Independent or bust
National schedule
NBC tv contract (even if they could make more money as a conference member)

This is okay if you’re going 10-2 or better every year but at 9-3 or worse you’re just looking at a middling bowl
09-04-2020 08:44 PM
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texasorange Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 08:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What exactly are ND’s goals?

Independent or bust
National schedule
NBC tv contract (even if they could make more money as a conference member)

This is okay if you’re going 10-2 or better every year but at 9-3 or worse you’re just looking at a middling bowl

I think, talking to the Notre Dame grads and fans in my family; they’re fine with that. I don’t understand it myself, but it is what it is.
09-05-2020 12:30 AM
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sierrajip Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 03:36 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 11:44 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-04-2020 07:17 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  What happens if ND is in the ACC Championship playing for a spot in the playoffs or Orange Bowl instead of the Pinstripe Bowl.
I bet there are quite a few fans who would like to keep that logo next year.

It was in the playoffs in 2018 as a football independent.

Conference membership did not mean anything at all then.

ND has its own contract with the Orange Bowl.

Except that is makes it easier to get into the playoffs.
Also, ND only has the Orange Bowl twice in the cycle. Being part of the ACC can put them yearly.

Will the recruiting qualifications be the same. If not, why change.
09-05-2020 05:17 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 08:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What exactly are ND’s goals?

Independent or bust
National schedule
NBC tv contract (even if they could make more money as a conference member)

This is okay if you’re going 10-2 or better every year but at 9-3 or worse you’re just looking at a middling bowl

If you go 9-3, so it goes.

Should have done better, try again next year.

At that point, who really cares what bowl game you get ?

How much difference does what bowl you get at 9-3 really make?


BTW, ND's indy arrangement with the ACC already allows it to participate in ACC minor bowls, so is this really even a thing?
(This post was last modified: 09-05-2020 06:36 AM by TerryD.)
09-05-2020 06:33 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-04-2020 08:44 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  What exactly are ND’s goals?

Independent or bust
National schedule
NBC tv contract (even if they could make more money as a conference member)

This is okay if you’re going 10-2 or better every year but at 9-3 or worse you’re just looking at a middling bowl

This shows how Notre Dame is extremely committed to independence.

NBC pays ND an average of $15 million through 2025. https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...-deal-2025

"Notre Dame’s average annual share of conference revenue is $6 million." https://roanoke.com/teel-acc-fan-hostili...0f8fe.html

So, through 2025 at least, ND is making an average of $21 million a year from their independent TV contract and from the ACC.

Meanwhile, ACC members are making $29.5 million/year from the conference. https://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.co...nferences/

So ACC football members are making a solid $8.5 million a year more in media revenue than the Irish. An I think it's safe to say that if the Irish were in the ACC for football, the per-school average revenue for the ACC would go up by several million dollars. Conservatively, let's say that amount would be $3 million. That would mean Notre Dame is leaving $11.5 million a year on the table.

So, indeed, I think Notre Dame is rather committed to football independence.
09-05-2020 09:39 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
As the Big Ten and SEC continue to get richer and richer is maintaining that ever increasing income disparity sustainable?

The Irish either need to get themselves a better tv deal or join a conference where they can collectively leverage for a higher payout.
09-06-2020 06:25 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-06-2020 06:25 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  As the Big Ten and SEC continue to get richer and richer is maintaining that ever increasing income disparity sustainable?

The Irish either need to get themselves a better tv deal or join a conference where they can collectively leverage for a higher payout.

I think ND has been pretty clear about independence. They have a strong, deeply rooted cultural commitment to independence, meaning they are willing sacrifice important things like media money, bowl access and an easier path to the playoffs to maintain it. We know this because as you and others have noted, ND could join a Power conference and make more money, have better bowl access, and have an easier path to the playoffs.

But this is also not absolute. ND has also said that the one thing that would compel them to give up independence is if the playoff structure was changed so as to make it prohibitively difficult to make the playoffs as an independent, because their overriding commitment is to compete for national championships.

But the experience of 2018 has made it clear that being independent does not create unreasonable barriers to the playoffs and so if anything it makes it less likely that ND will permanently join a conference under the current CFP regime. Joining the ACC this year is consistent with all this, as because of the decisions even the P5 conferences that are playing in the fall made about OOC games, it's clear ND could not have played an independent schedule that would have allowed them to compete for the title.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2020 07:51 AM by quo vadis.)
09-06-2020 07:51 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-06-2020 07:51 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(09-06-2020 06:25 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  As the Big Ten and SEC continue to get richer and richer is maintaining that ever increasing income disparity sustainable?

The Irish either need to get themselves a better tv deal or join a conference where they can collectively leverage for a higher payout.

I think ND has been pretty clear about independence. They have a strong, deeply rooted cultural commitment to independence, meaning they are willing sacrifice important things like media money, bowl access and an easier path to the playoffs to maintain it. We know this because as you and others have noted, ND could join a Power conference and make more money, have better bowl access, and have an easier path to the playoffs.

But this is also not absolute. ND has also said that the one thing that would compel them to give up independence is if the playoff structure was changed so as to make it prohibitively difficult to make the playoffs as an independent, because their overriding commitment is to compete for national championships.

But the experience of 2018 has made it clear that being independent does not create unreasonable barriers to the playoffs and so if anything it makes it less likely that ND will permanently join a conference under the current CFP regime. Joining the ACC this year is consistent with all this, as because of the decisions even the P5 conferences that are playing in the fall made about OOC games, it's clear ND could not have played an independent schedule that would have allowed them to compete for the title.

Pretty well summed up.

As with everything else going on today, you need to look at history to understand how we got here.

ND was a football independent every year from 1887 until this season (temporary safe harbor). 133 years of playing football without a conference affiliation.

It is who ND is. It is its cultural identity, its brand, the way it sees itself, the way it thinks it can best market the university to...everyone, football players, prospective students and the general public.

It is foolish for other fans to expect ND to want to voluntarily give that up. It has become an ideal at ND, the 11th Commandment, so to speak.

It is much more important to ND than more TV money or an easier path to the playoffs, as unfathomable as that is to non-ND people.

Other fans may not agree or understand, but they really do not count, at all. It is not their call, they do not get a vote. They do not need to understand.

As the independents fell by the wayside after 1990, this became even more important to ND, something to value/cherish, something to protect at all costs, similar to if this country was the only democracy left on Earth, surrounded by something else, the Last Bastion, so to speak.

When a thing is rare it is more valuable, and over time as football independence become less and less prevalent, ND became more determined to hold on to it.

Hence, the 1990 NBC deal and the partial deals to the Big East (1995) and the ACC (2012).

It wasn't that important yet in the 1920's when ND tried to get into the Big Ten (Western Conference), but the blackballing by Michigan led ND to another path, a barnstorming, play all over the country, play anyone, any time football independent.

Knute Rockne and his successors did kinda of a good job rebounding from the Big Ten rejection and ND built itself up precisely by not joining a conference.

Because of that, football independence became entrenched at ND. Not because ND is "greedy" or other such bull****, but because of this exact history.

It became a "See what we did without you bastards" thing. It fostered an "us against everyone else" attitude, a sort of "Bunker Mentality".

It also fostered a "Oh, now you want us ?" attitude after ND became the brand, the "gold standard" in college football, a national power.

Because of that, conferences became something to dislike and avoid at ND.

(Before anyone brings up basketball or other sports, please understand that those sports, while important, are not in the same universe as ND football. Also, ND basketball was independent from its inception until it joined the Big East in 1995).

When I look at the other 14 schools of the ACC, I do not see "conference brethren", whatever that is.

I see 14 adversaries, banded together in a slightly less adversarial temporary business relationship, brought about by certain exigencies.

If you do not understand these mindsets at ND, then sure, you are going to be perplexed, I guess.

Those mindsets are EXACTLY why the arguments since 1990 of "You can make more TV money" or "You could have an easier playoff path" have been met to date by ND people going "So What"??

Maybe not all ND fans see the college football world this way, but certainly a large enough majority do so or we would not be having this discussion.

(I am not picking on the ACC, it would be the same no matter the conference).

People in this thread ask what are ND's goals.

They have always been the same (though not achieved for 32 years):

Win a national championship, but do it as a football independent.

That is it. Those are the goals. Win games and stay indy.

Now, it is very possible that ND will be FORCED into a permanent football conference, by Covid or playoff considerations or some other thing.

But, understand that it is not something that it WANTS to do.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2020 12:33 PM by TerryD.)
09-06-2020 11:07 AM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
ND can raise as much damn money as they need. Just like Duke. It's only a matter of making the request. They don't need money. They like money, but they don't need money.

That being said, ND remains slave to it's Irish-Catholic identity versus the Protestant ******** at the Michigan of the worlds.

Scratch them an you get a Irishman still pissed at the English - as they should be - just like when you scratch a White Southerner - you get an Scotsman or an Ulster Scot still pissed at the English - and rightfully so.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2020 04:47 PM by Statefan.)
09-06-2020 04:44 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #33
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-06-2020 04:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  ND can raise as much damn money as they need. Just like Duke. It's only a matter of making the request. They don't need money. They like money, but they don't need money.

That being said, ND remains slave to it's Irish-Catholic identity versus the Protestant ******** at the Michigan of the worlds.

Scratch them an you get a Irishman still pissed at the English - as they should be - just like when you scratch a White Southerner - you get an Scotsman or an Ulster Scot still pissed at the English - and rightfully so.

Just to add a little meat to that bone.

The folks that were in control of the government in North Carolina were generally of English stock.
The folks that settled around where Fort Bragg (Fayetteville) is located (southeast NC) were (based on the names found on graves stones) were of Scottish decent from the northwestern islands of Scotland around the Isle of Skye.
So what did those nice English folks do when it came time to name the county in which all of those Scots lived? They gave the County the name of Cumberland, which was named for Prince William Augustus, the duke of Cumberland, the son of King George II who was the victorious commander at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The Battle of Culloden was the final confrontation of the Jacobite rising of 1745. A crushing and humiliating defeat of the Scotsmen in their attempt to restore Bonnie Prince Charlie to the Throne.
Got to love those Englishmen for perpetually reminding the Scots of their defeat.
09-06-2020 05:46 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
It’s a wonder the Syracuse-ND never took on religious overtones—then again I don’t think they played regularly until the end of the 20th Century.
09-06-2020 05:56 PM
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TuckerGnat Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
This thread has really headed in an unnecessarily unpleasant direction.
09-06-2020 06:23 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
(09-06-2020 05:46 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(09-06-2020 04:44 PM)Statefan Wrote:  ND can raise as much damn money as they need. Just like Duke. It's only a matter of making the request. They don't need money. They like money, but they don't need money.

That being said, ND remains slave to it's Irish-Catholic identity versus the Protestant ******** at the Michigan of the worlds.

Scratch them an you get a Irishman still pissed at the English - as they should be - just like when you scratch a White Southerner - you get an Scotsman or an Ulster Scot still pissed at the English - and rightfully so.

Just to add a little meat to that bone.

The folks that were in control of the government in North Carolina were generally of English stock.
The folks that settled around where Fort Bragg (Fayetteville) is located (southeast NC) were (based on the names found on graves stones) were of Scottish decent from the northwestern islands of Scotland around the Isle of Skye.
So what did those nice English folks do when it came time to name the county in which all of those Scots lived? They gave the County the name of Cumberland, which was named for Prince William Augustus, the duke of Cumberland, the son of King George II who was the victorious commander at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The Battle of Culloden was the final confrontation of the Jacobite rising of 1745. A crushing and humiliating defeat of the Scotsmen in their attempt to restore Bonnie Prince Charlie to the Throne.
Got to love those Englishmen for perpetually reminding the Scots of their defeat.

I have been to the battlefield at Culloden.

(I have also been to Sterling and Bannockburn)

Those moors have an mystical feel to them.

The clan gravestones tell a tale.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2020 09:27 PM by TerryD.)
09-06-2020 09:26 PM
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AllCuseConference Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
I think if the playoffs remained at 4 and Notre Dame joined full time today. I think they would make the final 4, 3 or 4 times over the next decade and win one or two national championships. I dont think they're coming close to that with their schedule now.
09-07-2020 09:13 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
Why does every ND thread turn into them somehow being forced into a conference. As if a bowl game would ever balk at having Notre Dame in it
09-07-2020 09:16 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
ACC logos everywhere. Looks good Notre Dame.
09-12-2020 03:59 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #40
Exclamation RE: Notre Dame paints the "ACC" logo on its field
I may be the last person to realize this, but... today is exactly the 8-year anniversary of the day that Notre Dame joined the ACC

https://accfootballrx.blogspot.com/2012/...-exit.html

What a coincidence that it's also the date of their first ever conference football game - also in the ACC?
09-12-2020 04:07 PM
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