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ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

We can, we have. If we get an effective vaccine we just need enough people to take it. A lot of viruses are still around but not many are creating 50K+ new cases a day in the middle of summer. I imagine it will get worse in the winter. I'm hopeful that in the spring we'll have a vaccine that's safe and effective and start forming some herd immunity.
08-19-2020 12:54 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #22
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

We can, we have. If we get an effective vaccine we just need enough people to take it. A lot of viruses are still around but not many are creating 50K+ new cases a day in the middle of summer. I imagine it will get worse in the winter. I'm hopeful that in the spring we'll have a vaccine that's safe and effective and start forming some herd immunity.

I don't agree that it will be a factor forever as you suggest. What about polio, smallpox, herpes, aids, rabies, yellow fever, ebola, etc.? Are they still around killing thousands of people?
08-19-2020 01:01 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #23
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:01 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

We can, we have. If we get an effective vaccine we just need enough people to take it. A lot of viruses are still around but not many are creating 50K+ new cases a day in the middle of summer. I imagine it will get worse in the winter. I'm hopeful that in the spring we'll have a vaccine that's safe and effective and start forming some herd immunity.

I don't agree that it will be a factor forever as you suggest. What about polio, smallpox, herpes, aids, rabies, yellow fever, ebola, etc.? Are they still around killing thousands of people?

Correct, but COVID-19 is a respiratory virus that transmits very easily.

It's hard to contain by its very nature.
08-19-2020 01:06 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #24
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 12:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:53 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:01 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Then no FB. Almost zero chance things improve in two weeks.

Actually, Indiana Covid deaths are way down:

https://www.google.com/search?q=indiana+...e&ie=UTF-8

USA cases and deaths have been falling the last week or two as well.

The issue is that college campuses specifically are unique petri dishes similar to nursing homes. Most reasonable people understood that to be the case (see many discussions here over the past few months about the practical impossibility of socially distancing in dorms and the reality that college students will find ways to get together no matter what), but now we see it in practice with the spikes at UNC and ND after just a week. If you multiply that times thousands of other colleges across the country, then that alone can spike the numbers for the entire country... again.

The common counterargument would be that college-aged people have a lower risk of serious symptoms, which I understand. However, as a lawyer, all it takes is one bad case for a university and they are F*CKED.
The problem here Frank is academic rigidity. This we can't have sports unless we have on campus classes is about as stupid a policy as could have been conceived by the so called academics who can't be creative enough to think their way out of a box.

The biggest risk here at Auburn are the incoming Freshmen and Sophomores who are in party high gear. If our schools wanted to make a quantum leap in resolving their financial issues they would open enrollment for core curriculum to unrestricted levels, but all online and remote. This helps them to recoup a lot of revenue they've lost already. All they need do is to solicit a guarantee from all other state schools that all core curriculum course work would transfer anywhere instate without loss of credit.

Getting the Freshmen and Sophomore classes off campus opens more space for graduate work, research, and those pursuing their work in majors and minors in undergraduate. They are older and more responsible than the partiers at every school which are reduced by half at most campuses after 2 years due to sorting the serious students from those who are not.

Let athletes temporarily have a dorm unto themselves and make sure that tutors are there to schedule routine classwork outside of the class settings for the Freshmen and Sophomore athletes and to work with the Juniors and Seniors to minimize their class time which naturally would be in smaller classes on most campuses but could be moved to rooms where spreading out and good air circulation and filtration can be maintained.

I'm willing to bet that the rate of infection in the general society could be easily maintained if the Freshmen and Sophomores took classes from home. When the average 18 year old leaves Mom and Dad's supervision they go apeshit wild their first year at college and this is the norm and not the exception. Sophomores are right there with them, though not in quite the percentage.

All of the orientation groups here in Auburn have gathered without regard to social distancing, don't mask, and act like the young jerks they are. Vandalism and infection rates have increased since their return. Imagine that?

Auburn went from single digit cases reported per week to 40 when they showed back up 2 weeks prior to the Monday open of classes. There's your risk. The whole graduate department throughout the whole pandemic has barely hit 10 cases all traced to outside sources and all quarantined without further spread.

Realistically, the "party risk" is inherent on virtually every college campus. I totally understand why colleges *want* kids to come back to campus when they're generally paying $15,000 to $20,000 per year for room and board that would likely cost a fraction of that amount in the open market. Of course, pretty much all of us with any sense knew that cases were going to spike because of all of the factors that you just mentioned.

If we were actually rational in this country, we'd have less concern with elementary school kids going to school in-person (where the in-person instruction is going to impact their learning abilities for the rest of their lives combined with health risks that are demonstrably lower) and wouldn't even think to have college kids back on-campus (as that is a group that is *biologically* hard-wired to take on unreasonable and irrational risks at that age while literally living on top of each other in dorms and apartment buildings). Instead, we have the opposite.

I'd disagree with the notion of academic rigidity, though... at least if colleges want to continue with the farce of claiming that these are student-athletes instead of professionals. (To be clear, I'd be perfectly happy if colleges got rid of that farce.) It's pretty hard to justify why football should continue if the college deems that the entire student population isn't safe on-campus. The general public health consensus (the "reasonable person standard" for legal purposes, if you will) is that in-person classes with masks and social distancing would be "safe" (whatever that means today), whereas football in and of itself is deemed to be a high risk sport due to amount of direct physical contact and the sizes of teams (even putting aside that 100-plus people need to travel each time that there's a road game). So, if a college doesn't believe that in-person classes are safe when they are supposed to be *safer* than playing football, then as bullet notes, the only reason why football is being played would be for money (which is a bad reason to have amateur athletes play games during an on-campus public health crisis, much less the potential legal exposure involved).

Now, if the players were actually paid salaries with a collectively bargained agreement regarding safety protocols (which is probably going to be the reality sooner rather than later regardless of the pandemic), then that's an entirely different story. In that situation, the players could come back in an Ebola outbreak on-campus if they've collectively bargained to do so. Until then, though, making an exclusion for football (which anyone reasonable person would see is all about revenue) while the entire rest of the campus is deemed "unsafe" is going to be an untenable position for any school.
08-19-2020 01:18 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #25
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
Players can opt out.

Players can quit.

Who is making them play?
08-19-2020 01:29 PM
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goofus Offline
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Post: #26
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
Now this is what the Big Ten should have done last week.

Announce that if the numbers don't improve quickly, there will be no football this fall. But the final decision o play wouldn't be made now. Instead Football teams can continue to practice until a final decision is made later.
08-19-2020 01:36 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #27
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:12 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:53 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:01 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Then no FB. Almost zero chance things improve in two weeks.

Actually, Indiana Covid deaths are way down:

https://www.google.com/search?q=indiana+...e&ie=UTF-8

USA cases and deaths have been falling the last week or two as well.

The issue is that college campuses specifically are unique petri dishes similar to nursing homes. Most reasonable people understood that to be the case (see many discussions here over the past few months about the practical impossibility of socially distancing in dorms and the reality that college students will find ways to get together no matter what), but now we see it in practice with the spikes at UNC and ND after just a week. If you multiply that times thousands of other colleges across the country, then that alone can spike the numbers for the entire country... again.

The common counterargument would be that college-aged people have a lower risk of serious symptoms, which I understand. However, as a lawyer, all it takes is one bad case for a university and they are F*CKED.
The problem here Frank is academic rigidity. This we can't have sports unless we have on campus classes is about as stupid a policy as could have been conceived by the so called academics who can't be creative enough to think their way out of a box.

The biggest risk here at Auburn are the incoming Freshmen and Sophomores who are in party high gear. If our schools wanted to make a quantum leap in resolving their financial issues they would open enrollment for core curriculum to unrestricted levels, but all online and remote. This helps them to recoup a lot of revenue they've lost already. All they need do is to solicit a guarantee from all other state schools that all core curriculum course work would transfer anywhere instate without loss of credit.

Getting the Freshmen and Sophomore classes off campus opens more space for graduate work, research, and those pursuing their work in majors and minors in undergraduate. They are older and more responsible than the partiers at every school which are reduced by half at most campuses after 2 years due to sorting the serious students from those who are not.

Let athletes temporarily have a dorm unto themselves and make sure that tutors are there to schedule routine classwork outside of the class settings for the Freshmen and Sophomore athletes and to work with the Juniors and Seniors to minimize their class time which naturally would be in smaller classes on most campuses but could be moved to rooms where spreading out and good air circulation and filtration can be maintained.

I'm willing to bet that the rate of infection in the general society could be easily maintained if the Freshmen and Sophomores took classes from home. When the average 18 year old leaves Mom and Dad's supervision they go apeshit wild their first year at college and this is the norm and not the exception. Sophomores are right there with them, though not in quite the percentage.

All of the orientation groups here in Auburn have gathered without regard to social distancing, don't mask, and act like the young jerks they are. Vandalism and infection rates have increased since their return. Imagine that?

Auburn went from single digit cases reported per week to 40 when they showed back up 2 weeks prior to the Monday open of classes. There's your risk. The whole graduate department throughout the whole pandemic has barely hit 10 cases all traced to outside sources and all quarantined without further spread.

Realistically, the "party risk" is inherent on virtually every college campus. I totally understand why colleges *want* kids to come back to campus when they're generally paying $15,000 to $20,000 per year for room and board that would likely cost a fraction of that amount in the open market. Of course, pretty much all of us with any sense knew that cases were going to spike because of all of the factors that you just mentioned.

If we were actually rational in this country, we'd have less concern with elementary school kids going to school in-person (where the in-person instruction is going to impact their learning abilities for the rest of their lives combined with health risks that are demonstrably lower) and wouldn't even think to have college kids back on-campus (as that is a group that is *biologically* hard-wired to take on unreasonable and irrational risks at that age while literally living on top of each other in dorms and apartment buildings). Instead, we have the opposite.

I'd disagree with the notion of academic rigidity, though... at least if colleges want to continue with the farce of claiming that these are student-athletes instead of professionals. (To be clear, I'd be perfectly happy if colleges got rid of that farce.) It's pretty hard to justify why football should continue if the college deems that the entire student population isn't safe on-campus. The general public health consensus (the "reasonable person standard" for legal purposes, if you will) is that in-person classes with masks and social distancing would be "safe" (whatever that means today), whereas football in and of itself is deemed to be a high risk sport due to amount of direct physical contact and the sizes of teams (even putting aside that 100-plus people need to travel each time that there's a road game). So, if a college doesn't believe that in-person classes are safe when they are supposed to be *safer* than playing football, then as bullet notes, the only reason why football is being played would be for money (which is a bad reason to have amateur athletes play games during an on-campus public health crisis, much less the potential legal exposure involved).

Now, if the players were actually paid salaries with a collectively bargained agreement regarding safety protocols (which is probably going to be the reality sooner rather than later regardless of the pandemic), then that's an entirely different story. In that situation, the players could come back in an Ebola outbreak on-campus if they've collectively bargained to do so. Until then, though, making an exclusion for football (which anyone reasonable person would see is all about revenue) while the entire rest of the campus is deemed "unsafe" is going to be an untenable position for any school.
You double clutched the discussion by shifting twice. Pay for play is not relevant to this discussion and is relevant entirely as a separate issue to viral spread. The second shift was subtle in that ignored my premise. The academics are rigid. They wouldn't have to shut down the whole campus if they culled the Freshmen and Sophomores to online work only. The high risk behavior goes down significantly with upperclassmen and grad students. Auburn had no underclassmen after March and the infection rate among grad students was about .001.

The refusal to be flexible is exactly why they are faced with an all or nothing decision. It ignores the reality of who it is that puts people at risk, and whom it is that can work safely with others. There is no need to shut down college in the age of on line learning and since grad students aren't a risk there is no reason to shut down research and doctoral programs. And quite frankly little reason to stop Juniors and Seniors who can more effectively social distance without the mass of Freshmen and Sophomores who don't have to be impeded on a timeline if they take their core curriculum on line from home saving their parents 50% of the cost of their first two years.

And furthermore, if you drop the enrollment limits for online courses you can make up for the loss of dorm revenue and then cull that group to an acceptable Junior class by taking the best of that group leaving the rest to find another school in state in which to continue their education. So the rising enrollment tide on line eventually floats all state school boats.
08-19-2020 01:36 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #28
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

Good post
Coronavirus has been around for 10,000 years in one form or another. Covid 19 is a mutated version, most likely crossed over from animal coronavirus.
Locking ourselves away isn’t going to make the virus go away. Neither will a vaccine.
Polio should serve as an example for all of us. Polio hit the US in the 1840’s. We didn’t officially declare it eradicated until 1979. I am old enough to remember kids in school that had poliomyelitis.
Polio still exists in other areas of the world.
My point is we learned to live with polio and we will learn to live with this strain of Covid as well.
08-19-2020 01:38 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #29
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:29 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Players can opt out.

Players can quit.

Who is making them play?

If a school will continue honoring their scholarship if they don't play, then I would agree that's a legitimate choice for the player.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship if they don't choose to play, then that's not a legitimate choice for the player. In that situation, the school is constructively forcing the player to play because the negative consequences for not playing are so great by comparison.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship because the *school* chooses not to play, then that's a sh*tty move by the school and karma should come back harshly upon them.
08-19-2020 01:39 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #30
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 01:29 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Players can opt out.

Players can quit.

Who is making them play?

If a school will continue honoring their scholarship if they don't play, then I would agree that's a legitimate choice for the player.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship if they don't choose to play, then that's not a legitimate choice for the player.

The B1G, PAC, and SEC at least already announced back in July that athletes opting out of Fall sports because of CV concerns would have their scholarships honored:

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...oronavirus
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2020 01:45 PM by quo vadis.)
08-19-2020 01:43 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #31
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 01:29 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Players can opt out.

Players can quit.

Who is making them play?

If a school will continue honoring their scholarship if they don't play, then I would agree that's a legitimate choice for the player.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship if they don't choose to play, then that's not a legitimate choice for the player. In that situation, the school is constructively forcing the player to play because the negative consequences for not playing are so great by comparison.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship because the *school* chooses not to play, then that's a sh*tty move by the school and karma should come back harshly upon them.

The contract is scholarship for play.

How is it different from quiting a job?

You can pay your own way, or seek other employment - Transfer.

I'm unaware of any P-5 not honoring the scholarship for the year, are you? There have been about 35 players in the ACC opt out.

When a scholarship player loses their scholarship the financial aid office will take care of them. I have watched that first hand at VT, Carolina, and NC State. I've never seen a female athlete not taken care of and the only males not taken care of were rapist-thugs that should have been in jail.
08-19-2020 01:45 PM
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ccd494 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:38 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

Good post
Coronavirus has been around for 10,000 years in one form or another. Covid 19 is a mutated version, most likely crossed over from animal coronavirus.
Locking ourselves away isn’t going to make the virus go away. Neither will a vaccine.
Polio should serve as an example for all of us. Polio hit the US in the 1840’s. We didn’t officially declare it eradicated until 1979. I am old enough to remember kids in school that had poliomyelitis.
Polio still exists in other areas of the world.
My point is we learned to live with polio and we will learn to live with this strain of Covid as well.

You are all overlooking the difference between a virus and a pandemic.

There are a number of incredibly dangerous viruses floating around out there (Coronaviruses, Ebola, HIV, Hantavirus, etc.). The difference is that Coronavirus is, right now, a pandemic affecting an astronomical proportion of the population.

We will, of course, eventually return to normalcy. Coronaviruses will still exist. There may not even be a vaccine. But in order to do that we need to quell the pandemic. We aren't close to doing that because for whatever reason a large portion of our country thinks that not being able to do exactly what they want, whenever they want, is a fundamental attack on their personal liberties.

COVID-19 is like a fire spreading through a forest of trees (humans). Until we either separate the trees to the point where the fire can't spread from tree to tree (read: stay inside and apart for a month so the virus burns itself out), or we douse all the trees in flame retardant chemicals (find a vaccine or just WEAR F'ING MASKS), the fire will continue to spread.

The issue with football isn't the football itself- it is the students congregating on campus. That's like taking the trees from the forest and chopping them up into a huge pile of kindling. One spark, and you have a campus-wide outbreak. If you sent all students home except the football players, sure, you could play. You'd just have to figure out how to argue with a straight face that the football players are still student-athletes that do not deserve any kind of special status over and above the average non-athlete student. And the NCAA does not want to do that. The football factories have boxed themselves in.
08-19-2020 01:46 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #33
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

We can, we have. If we get an effective vaccine we just need enough people to take it. A lot of viruses are still around but not many are creating 50K+ new cases a day in the middle of summer. I imagine it will get worse in the winter. I'm hopeful that in the spring we'll have a vaccine that's safe and effective and start forming some herd immunity.

Except for the fact that science has never produced an effective vaccine for any of the Coronavirus family.


"BuT tHeY'vE nEvEr PoUrEd ThIs MuCh MoNeY aNd EfFoRt iNtO pReViOuS aTtEmPtS!" I counter with the fact that far more money, effort, and especially time has been poured into researching a vaccine for HIV and yet here we currently sit with none available.

Not to mention the fact that it's going to be extremely hard to get a significant portion of the public to willingly be injected with something that we have absolutely no idea what the long term effects could be. I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any stretch of the imagination but there's absolutely no way I'm getting any vaccine until there's been at least several years of research proving it's safe. Anyone who does is quite simply a fool.
08-19-2020 01:46 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #34
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 11:53 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:01 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Then no FB. Almost zero chance things improve in two weeks.

Actually, Indiana Covid deaths are way down:

https://www.google.com/search?q=indiana+...e&ie=UTF-8

USA cases and deaths have been falling the last week or two as well.

The issue is that college campuses specifically are unique petri dishes similar to nursing homes. Most reasonable people understood that to be the case (see many discussions here over the past few months about the practical impossibility of socially distancing in dorms and the reality that college students will find ways to get together no matter what), but now we see it in practice with the spikes at UNC and ND after just a week.

The problem for the B1G and PAC is that they have canceled football but kept campuses open, when there is far greater risk from the general student population spreading CV than from a handful of football athletes doing so. That is hard to explain.

Another problem is that we don't know how much of a "petri dish" colleges are. We'd need to compare rates of CV among kids on campus vs kids who are off campus. We just don't have that data. It could be that by closing down campuses, universities are helping to spread CV not abate its spread. This is important because we DO know that college age kids are extremely unlikely to have personal bad outcomes from a covid case. The purported danger is them spreading it to older family back home. We're constantly being told about how many 20 year olds live with an elderly uncle, grandma, etc.

But, if a kid is on campus with the football team, he's probably not interacting with grandpa and grandma that much. If he's at home, he might be interacting with them every day, so what's the greater risk of spread to vulnerable people?
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2020 01:51 PM by quo vadis.)
08-19-2020 01:48 PM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:06 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 01:01 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:54 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 12:39 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  The elephant in the room with regard to containing the virus is this...

It's not going away.

Not this year, not next year, or the year after that, or the year after that. It might even ramp up as cold weather approaches.

Even if we develop an effective vaccine then most people won't take it...certainly not around the world and unless we're all going to suspend international travel indefinitely then the vaccine won't make that big of a dent anyway. Most people don't even take the flu vaccine, for instance.

We're going to have to learn to live with it. That starts by protecting vulnerable members of the population, but we can't simply stop a virus and hope it dies off. It's out and it's everywhere.

We can, we have. If we get an effective vaccine we just need enough people to take it. A lot of viruses are still around but not many are creating 50K+ new cases a day in the middle of summer. I imagine it will get worse in the winter. I'm hopeful that in the spring we'll have a vaccine that's safe and effective and start forming some herd immunity.

I don't agree that it will be a factor forever as you suggest. What about polio, smallpox, herpes, aids, rabies, yellow fever, ebola, etc.? Are they still around killing thousands of people?

Correct, but COVID-19 is a respiratory virus that transmits very easily.

It's hard to contain by its very nature.

Yes but there's more evidence that long term immunity (not permanent maybe but at least a year) is obtained through T Cells and herd immunity might be reached at a lower level than the 60-70% previously needed, more like 40-50% according to some and a few say as low as 20%. I think it'll be around but as it becomes less novel i.e. everyone gains some level of immunity either through infection or vaccine then it'll be less severe and more inline with a flu or cold. Being optimistic here but hopefully people aren't afraid to go to a full stadium this time next year. I think this fall & winter could get ugly though.
08-19-2020 01:54 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #36
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 01:39 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 01:29 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Players can opt out.

Players can quit.

Who is making them play?

If a school will continue honoring their scholarship if they don't play, then I would agree that's a legitimate choice for the player.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship if they don't choose to play, then that's not a legitimate choice for the player. In that situation, the school is constructively forcing the player to play because the negative consequences for not playing are so great by comparison.

If a school doesn't honor their scholarship because the *school* chooses not to play, then that's a sh*tty move by the school and karma should come back harshly upon them.

The contract is scholarship for play.

How is it different from quiting a job?

You can pay your own way, or seek other employment - Transfer.

I'm unaware of any P-5 not honoring the scholarship for the year, are you? There have been about 35 players in the ACC opt out.

When a scholarship player loses their scholarship the financial aid office will take care of them. I have watched that first hand at VT, Carolina, and NC State. I've never seen a female athlete not taken care of and the only males not taken care of were rapist-thugs that should have been in jail.

Colleges have been arguing for a century specifically that it's NOT a contract for play and it's NOT a job.

Now, I (and many others) have argued for a long time that this suspends reality.

Be that as it may, though, if colleges want to take the position that these are student-athletes as opposed to employees, then they can't reasonably yank a scholarship if a student doesn't want play due to a health reason (of which the worst global pandemic in over 100 years would qualify).

To your point, it is good that the P5 have continued to honor all scholarships as far as I know. That should be the position of all colleges.
08-19-2020 01:59 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #37
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 01:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:53 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-19-2020 11:01 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Then no FB. Almost zero chance things improve in two weeks.

Actually, Indiana Covid deaths are way down:

https://www.google.com/search?q=indiana+...e&ie=UTF-8

USA cases and deaths have been falling the last week or two as well.

The issue is that college campuses specifically are unique petri dishes similar to nursing homes. Most reasonable people understood that to be the case (see many discussions here over the past few months about the practical impossibility of socially distancing in dorms and the reality that college students will find ways to get together no matter what), but now we see it in practice with the spikes at UNC and ND after just a week.

The problem for the B1G and PAC is that they have canceled football but kept campuses open, when there is far greater risk from the general student population spreading CV than from a handful of football athletes doing so. That is hard to explain.

Another problem is that we don't know how much of a "petri dish" colleges are. We'd need to compare rates of CV among kids on campus vs kids who are off campus. We just don't have that data. It could be that by closing down campuses, universities are helping to spread CV not abate its spread. This is important because we DO know that college age kids are extremely unlikely to have personal bad outcomes from a covid case. The purported danger is them spreading it to older family back home. We're constantly being told about how many 20 year olds live with an elderly uncle, grandma, etc.

But, if a kid is on campus with the football team, he's probably not interacting with grandpa and grandma that much. If he's at home, he might be interacting with them every day, so what's the greater risk of spread to vulnerable people?

Quite frankly, we are kind of relieved our son is away on campus!04-cheers

And he is relatively conservative on corona compared to a lot of these kids.
08-19-2020 02:00 PM
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Post: #38
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
I've seen pictures of fraternity party rooms at Auburn packed so much I wonder if its a fire code violation. Hundreds of kids packed in.

In other words, same as normal. And pretty much what was obvious would happen.
08-19-2020 02:05 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #39
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 02:05 PM)bullet Wrote:  I've seen pictures of fraternity party rooms at Auburn packed so much I wonder if its a fire code violation. Hundreds of kids packed in.

In other words, same as normal. And pretty much what was obvious would happen.
The campus announced today that police will be enforcing the COVID Guidelines on campus from here on out. Stupid are the academics that didn't anticipate this.

BTW: The COVID cases dropped to single digits weekly shortly after the classes were canceled at the end of March and early April. They jumped to 40 cases a week about 2 weeks ago when the kids started returning to off campus apartments and frequenting the bars. As of Tuesday the number of cases jumped to 80 for this week. But before the board says look, look, Auburn without students has about 15,000 people in it. When class is back in session it jumps to 50,000. So jumping to 80 cases doesn't raise the overall rate of infection that much. But it does tell you what age group is propagating the infection.
(This post was last modified: 08-19-2020 02:15 PM by JRsec.)
08-19-2020 02:10 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #40
RE: ND Prez: if covid doesn't improve in 2 weeks, then no FB
(08-19-2020 02:05 PM)bullet Wrote:  I've seen pictures of fraternity party rooms at Auburn packed so much I wonder if its a fire code violation. Hundreds of kids packed in.

In other words, same as normal. And pretty much what was obvious would happen.

It's inevitable. It will happen at my alma mater, your alma mater, and everyone else's favorite school, too, whether they're North, South, Midwest, East Coast, West Coast, P5, G5, red states or blue states. There's pretty much no way to prevent it short of mandating that kids don't leave their dorms at all, in which case they shouldn't have brought those kids to campus in the first place. Plus, the school can't restrict off-campus private apartments and Greek houses, which takes a large portion of the student populations at many schools.
08-19-2020 02:14 PM
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