I have some questions about Villanova.

Up until they joined the Big East, they had football and were in the A-10 with Pitt, Penn St, Rutgers, and WVU.

Expense and lack of interest is sited as the reason why Wildcat football got canned in 1981 but I have to think the fact that they just committed to a basketball oriented conference played into it.

If an Eastern all sports league would have formed would they have wanted Villanova? Or do they get left out and cast their lot with the Big East?

Georgetown, St. John's, and Providence still make it a strong conference. UConn, Villanova, and Seton Hall still join.

From 1982-1989, those 6 schools won 2 national titles and had 7 Final Four appearances.

They need a Boston presence - Boston U. is actually bigger than Holy Cross and Boston College combined. Maybe BU hangs onto Rick Pitino (head coach from 1978-1983) if they're in the Big East?

My guess is that they target St. Bonaventure and St. Joseph's. The Bonnies went to a Final Four in 1970 and won the NIT in 1977. Saint Joseph's had a storied history and was really good in the late 70s/early 80s.

Other schools like UMass, Rhode Island, George Washington, and Duquesne were all decent in the 70s. But they all stunk by the early 80s (UMass started stinking earlier, winning 5 games in 78-79 and 2 in 79-80).

The only way this happens is if Penn State takes the lead on forming an eastern football conference back in 1978 rather than in 1981, when it tried to do so after the Big East had been successfully launched. If so, in addition to Syracuse (a founding member of the Big East), BC (a charter member of the Big East), and Pitt (who was added in 1982 to forestall Penn State's football conference initiative), Penn State, Rutgers, West Virginia and Temple all would have been off the table for the Big East as they would be in the football conference. Villanova and Holy Cross had chosen not to make the investment necessary to meet newly imposed Division 1-A requirements, so they would not have been under consideration for the eastern football league.

Without Penn State, Rutgers, West Virginia and Pitt, the Eastern 8 (now known at the Atlantic 10) would have collapsed, making Villanova, UMass, Duquesne and George Washington free agents.

As a start, founding Big East members Providence, Georgetown and St. John's, charter members Seton Hall and UConn, and initial invitee Villanova would be part of the Big East.

In addition to the disaffected members of the Eastern 8, leading Eastern teams included Holy Cross and Rhode Island from the ECAC New England Region, St. Bonaventure from the ECAC Upstate Region, Old Dominion and VCU from the ECAC South Region, and St. Joseph's from the East Coast Conference.

GWU, St. Joseph's and Rhode Island all seem likely to be off the table given that they duplicate markets with Georgetown, Villanova and Providence.

My guess is that Holy Cross and St. Bonaventure would have been the first options for two additional slots. I'm pretty confident St. Bonaventure says yes if offered. If Holy Cross says no, as they did, UMass would probably have made the most sense.

The better long term move would have been to chase Marquette, DePaul and Dayton (Xavier hadn't emerged yet). However, these schools seem unlikely to have been ready to give up independence back in 1979, particularly for an unproven conference based in the East.

(08-05-2020 11:14 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The only way this happens is if Penn State takes the lead on forming an eastern football conference back in 1978 rather than in 1981, when it tried to do so after the Big East had been successfully launched. If so, in addition to Syracuse (a founding member of the Big East), BC (a charter member of the Big East), and Pitt (who was added in 1982 to forestall Penn State's football conference initiative), Penn State, Rutgers, West Virginia and Temple all would have been off the table for the Big East as they would be in the football conference. Villanova and Holy Cross had chosen not to make the investment necessary to meet newly imposed Division 1-A requirements, so they would not have been under consideration for the eastern football league.

Without Penn State, Rutgers, West Virginia and Pitt, the Eastern 8 (now known at the Atlantic 10) would have collapsed, making Villanova, UMass, Duquesne and George Washington free agents.

As a start, founding Big East members Providence, Georgetown and St. John's, charter members Seton Hall and UConn, and initial invitee Villanova would be part of the Big East.

In addition to the disaffected members of the Eastern 8, leading Eastern teams included Holy Cross and Rhode Island from the ECAC New England Region, St. Bonaventure from the ECAC Upstate Region, Old Dominion and VCU from the ECAC South Region, and St. Joseph's from the East Coast Conference.

GWU, St. Joseph's and Rhode Island all seem likely to be off the table given that they duplicate markets with Georgetown, Villanova and Providence.

My guess is that Holy Cross and St. Bonaventure would have been the first options for two additional slots. I'm pretty confident St. Bonaventure says yes if offered. If Holy Cross says no, as they did, UMass would probably make the most sense.

I’ve maintained that if basketball and football interests could have reached a consensus this should have been the line up for the Eastern Conference:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
WVU

St John’s
Georgetown
Villanova/Providence

That collection of 10 would have provided sufficient basketball and football prowess while also being a strong television property. 7 was sufficient for a football conference back then but I think Miami and VT eventually find their way into that mix.

(08-05-2020 11:28 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve maintained that if basketball and football interests could have reached a consensus this should have been the line up for the Eastern Conference:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
WVU

St John’s
Georgetown
Villanova/Providence

That collection of 10 would have provided sufficient basketball and football prowess while also being a strong television property. 7 was sufficient for a football conference back then but I think Miami and VT eventually find their way into that mix.

I've made an argument for this set up in the past as well, with Providence the clear choice over Nova because of Dave Gavitt's pivotal role in the formation of the Big East. Basically, the revisionist theory would be that Dave Gavitt and Joe Paterno somehow get together to form a conference that meets both of their objectives. Perhaps Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel brings them together. Paterno was a pretty egotistical guy and probably would have needed convincing, but Gavitt was a great leader and a great salesman.

Given the timing of the BE’s creation, Philly was a real hot spot for the sport for hoops. I don’t disagree about challenges for Temple or Saint Joe’s for inclusion with Villanova there, but those two were having a positive decade. Villanova was trending higher. But iirc, I thought there was some slight consideration for Saint Joe’s when the Big East started.

But Temple had a fantastic AD in place who was kinda within the NCAA itself. It made them a presence even if we look at some of those football years some time later. But, I think that was Temple’s hurdle, in that Casale was thinking football and all-sports, and the BE was just hoops. It could be Temple may have been politely off the table more for that?

(08-05-2020 11:32 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 11:28 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve maintained that if basketball and football interests could have reached a consensus this should have been the line up for the Eastern Conference:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
WVU

St John’s
Georgetown
Villanova/Providence

That collection of 10 would have provided sufficient basketball and football prowess while also being a strong television property. 7 was sufficient for a football conference back then but I think Miami and VT eventually find their way into that mix.

I've made an argument for this set up in the past as well, with Providence the clear choice over Nova because of Dave Gavitt's pivotal role in the formation of the Big East. Basically, the revisionist theory would be that Dave Gavitt and Joe Paterno somehow get together to form a conference that meets both of their objectives. Perhaps Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel brings them together. Paterno was a pretty egotistical guy and probably would have needed convincing, but Gavitt was a great leader and a great salesman.

This would have been a nice hybrid but there certainly questions that have to be solved?

Does Villanova’s NC over Georgetown get them invited as an 11th member?

Is this set up strong enough to keep Penn St from looking at the Big Ten?

Will the basketball schools permit Miami and VT into the league?

If this league gets Miami and VT can they hang on to them when the ACC comes a calling in 2004? If they lose them in 2004 what is the impact on the rest of the conference?

(08-04-2020 08:17 PM)solohawks Wrote:  BC was the backup choice. Originally it was Holy Cross targeted for the Boston slot.

Who would have taken the Syracuse slot and how would that have impacted things? I figure a northeastern basketball conference would have been formed but it might have not been as big as the Eastern 8 JoePa wanted and dreamed of

Not sure that is accurate re: BC. Everything I have read is that BC was among the original schools invited. Holy Cross was also one of the original schools invited. They declined and the rest, as they say, is history.

Linked below are articles on the topic from both Holy Cross and Uconn.

https://hcspire.com/2020/02/14/imagine-i...-big-east/

https://dailycampus.com/stories/2018/4/1...2z2fxj0aug

I always thought that Holy Cross was in addition to BC.

Alternatively, UConn may have been the back up plan for HC. These seems plausible as they were the only public school at the league’s founding.

(08-05-2020 02:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I always thought that Holy Cross was in addition to BC.

Alternatively, UConn may have been the back up plan for HC. These seems plausible as they were the only public school at the league’s founding.

I think you are correct. I have heard the speculation that BC was a replacement for HC from time to time.....but when I looked into it, I cannot find a single article that supports it. Everything I have read, including what I linked, supports the position that both BC and HC were among the original list of invitees - with BC accepting and HC declining.

(08-05-2020 12:58 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 11:32 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 11:28 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’ve maintained that if basketball and football interests could have reached a consensus this should have been the line up for the Eastern Conference:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn St
Pittsburgh
WVU

St John’s
Georgetown
Villanova/Providence

That collection of 10 would have provided sufficient basketball and football prowess while also being a strong television property. 7 was sufficient for a football conference back then but I think Miami and VT eventually find their way into that mix.

I've made an argument for this set up in the past as well, with Providence the clear choice over Nova because of Dave Gavitt's pivotal role in the formation of the Big East. Basically, the revisionist theory would be that Dave Gavitt and Joe Paterno somehow get together to form a conference that meets both of their objectives. Perhaps Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel brings them together. Paterno was a pretty egotistical guy and probably would have needed convincing, but Gavitt was a great leader and a great salesman.

This would have been a nice hybrid but there certainly questions that have to be solved?

Does Villanova’s NC over Georgetown get them invited as an 11th member? Villanova never wins the NC, since they weren't in the Big East

Is this set up strong enough to keep Penn St from looking at the Big Ten? No

Will the basketball schools permit Miami and VT into the league? After Penn State leaves for the Big Ten, yes. The football schools had a 6-3 majority. The basketball schools may have been able to leverage an invitation for one or more additional basketball members.

If this league gets Miami and VT can they hang on to them when the ACC comes a calling in 2004? No. If they lose them in 2004 what is the impact on the rest of the conference? Pretty similar to what happened anyway.

Guys this is a nice recap on the history of the Big East

https://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history.aspx

(Link is broken for Part 2 on this first page)

https://cuse.com/sports/2001/8/8/history2.aspx

(Page 2 link)

(08-05-2020 04:20 PM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 02:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I always thought that Holy Cross was in addition to BC.

Alternatively, UConn may have been the back up plan for HC. These seems plausible as they were the only public school at the league’s founding.

I think you are correct. I have heard the speculation that BC was a replacement for HC from time to time.....but when I looked into it, I cannot find a single article that supports it. Everything I have read, including what I linked, supports the position that both BC and HC were among the original list of invitees - with BC accepting and HC declining.

I have read that Rutgers was the first preference, but they declined, and that the Big East invited Seton Hall instead. Never heard about BC being a replacement for Holy Cross.

(08-05-2020 05:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 04:20 PM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 02:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I always thought that Holy Cross was in addition to BC.

Alternatively, UConn may have been the back up plan for HC. These seems plausible as they were the only public school at the league’s founding.

I think you are correct. I have heard the speculation that BC was a replacement for HC from time to time.....but when I looked into it, I cannot find a single article that supports it. Everything I have read, including what I linked, supports the position that both BC and HC were among the original list of invitees - with BC accepting and HC declining.

I have read that Rutgers was the first preference, but they declined, and that the Big East invited Seton Hall instead. Never heard about BC being a replacement for Holy Cross.

Yes Rutgers wanted to stay in good with Penn State.

Seton Hall was a backup

Holy Cross thought the move to the Big East was too risky.

(08-05-2020 05:54 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 05:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 04:20 PM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 02:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I always thought that Holy Cross was in addition to BC.

Alternatively, UConn may have been the back up plan for HC. These seems plausible as they were the only public school at the league’s founding.

I think you are correct. I have heard the speculation that BC was a replacement for HC from time to time.....but when I looked into it, I cannot find a single article that supports it. Everything I have read, including what I linked, supports the position that both BC and HC were among the original list of invitees - with BC accepting and HC declining.

I have read that Rutgers was the first preference, but they declined, and that the Big East invited Seton Hall instead. Never heard about BC being a replacement for Holy Cross.

Yes Rutgers wanted to stay in good with Penn State.

Seton Hall was a backup

Holy Cross thought the move to the Big East was too risky.

Best decision ever made in the history of realignment

(08-05-2020 07:57 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 05:54 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 05:24 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 04:20 PM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 02:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I always thought that Holy Cross was in addition to BC.

Alternatively, UConn may have been the back up plan for HC. These seems plausible as they were the only public school at the league’s founding.

I think you are correct. I have heard the speculation that BC was a replacement for HC from time to time.....but when I looked into it, I cannot find a single article that supports it. Everything I have read, including what I linked, supports the position that both BC and HC were among the original list of invitees - with BC accepting and HC declining.

I have read that Rutgers was the first preference, but they declined, and that the Big East invited Seton Hall instead. Never heard about BC being a replacement for Holy Cross.

Yes Rutgers wanted to stay in good with Penn State.

Seton Hall was a backup

Holy Cross thought the move to the Big East was too risky.

Best decision ever made in the history of realignment

????

Not sure if serious. Are you saying this because they ultimately ended up with Penn State in the B1G decades later?

(08-05-2020 08:16 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 07:57 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 05:54 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Yes Rutgers wanted to stay in good with Penn State.

Seton Hall was a backup

Holy Cross thought the move to the Big East was too risky.

Best decision ever made in the history of realignment

????

Not sure if serious. Are you saying this because they ultimately ended up with Penn State in the B1G decades later?

Yep. Syracuse and Pittsburgh burned their bridges with Penn State when they 1) didn't join Penn State's proposed all sports conference in 1981 and then 2) couldn't get Penn State voted into the Big East. They can make excuses, but Penn State would never have gone to bat for either when the Big Ten thought about expansion. Penn State went to bat for Rutgers membership as early as 1995. It's one of the reasons the Big East admitted Rutgers as a full member. At the time Penn State was lobbying hard for an eastern travel partner, although it's not clear the Big Ten was all that interested in addressing the issue.

(08-05-2020 09:16 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 08:16 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 07:57 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 05:54 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Yes Rutgers wanted to stay in good with Penn State.

Seton Hall was a backup

Holy Cross thought the move to the Big East was too risky.

Best decision ever made in the history of realignment

????

Not sure if serious. Are you saying this because they ultimately ended up with Penn State in the B1G decades later?

Yep. Syracuse and Pittsburgh burned their bridges with Penn State when they 1) didn't join Penn State's proposed all sports conference in 1981 and then 2) couldn't get Penn State voted into the Big East. They can make excuses, but Penn State would never have gone to bat for either when the Big Ten thought about expansion. Penn State went to bat for Rutgers membership as early as 1995. It's one of the reasons the Big East admitted Rutgers as a full member. At the time Penn State was lobbying hard for an eastern travel partner, although it's not clear the Big Ten was all that interested in addressing the issue.

Maybe not the AD or president, but JoePa did say to the press in 2009 that he wanted the Big Ten expand with one out of "Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt." And JoePa carried a lot of weight at Penn State. (Too much, but that's another issue.)

https://www.tribdem.com/sports/paterno-p...95a08.html

Had Penn State decided to form a conference in the late 1970's, they could have also had South Carolina and Virginia Tech at the outset.

PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse, BC, West Va, VT, SC - this is a conference that does not need the Catholic Basketball Only schools and it does not start off with one foot in the grave.

(08-05-2020 09:23 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Maybe not the AD or president, but JoePa did say to the press in 2009 that he wanted the Big Ten expand with one out of "Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt." And JoePa carried a lot of weight at Penn State. (Too much, but that's another issue.)

https://www.tribdem.com/sports/paterno-p...95a08.html

And the Big Ten gave Penn State a big middle finger by giving them Nebraska.

(08-05-2020 09:36 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Had Penn State decided to form a conference in the late 1970's, they could have also had South Carolina and Virginia Tech at the outset.

PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse, BC, West Va, VT, SC - this is a conference that does not need the Catholic Basketball Only schools and it does not start off with one foot in the grave.

South Carolina's too far south. They wouldn't fit in. Virginia Tech also seems ho hum. This was many years before Michael Vick.

I wonder if this conference could have gotten Maryland to jump ship from the ACC.