I still consider the SEC move a resounding success because it erased the biggest mistake we ever made which was not immediately moving to the SEC with Arkansas and instead caving to political pressure from Baylor and Tech politicians desperately trying to get their schools political tagalong status since the Big 8 made it very clear it had no interest in those two but would grudgingly accept them but only if BOTH UT and A&M agreed to join.

(07-23-2020 03:50 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  You could make a hell of a case that not a single one of those programs improved on the field after switching conferences and that all are further away from a national championship today than before.

Absolutely.

Zero. Zilch. Zippity-do-dah!

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise. I wouldn't exactly call them a success story, but then again, they weren't world beaters in the Big XII either. You have to go down to G5 to see anyone having success in their new conference. Houston, Western Kentucky, and Boise State have all done really well for themselves in their new conferences.

I do wonder how much of the lack of success on the part of a lot of P5 movers has been due to losing their old recruiting grounds and having a hard time establishing new ones. I know Nebraska losing Texas has hurt really bad, and they've basically lost western Iowa and are in the process of letting their home state get regularly raided. Pitt's move basketball-wise has cost them the ability to recruit NYC and Philly. West Virginia can't pull from Virginia, Pennsylvania, or Ohio since they're on such a geographic island.

Colorado, Nebraska and Missouri had major recruiting changes. Colorado was the only one of the 3 that had less Texas players than before joining the Big 12, but it was still very big. They have lost much of that pipeline. Nebraska shifted to heavily Texas in the Big 12 and now they are virtually shut out so they are shifting back more to a midwest/national model like they did in the 80s and 90s. Missouri became heavily Texas in the Big 12 and they have completely shifted that to Georgia and Florida where they have no history.

Interestingly, A&M recruits much more out of state than when they were in the Big 12. It seems much of the SEC incursion in Texas is getting players who otherwise would have gone to A&M, so they are picking up some talent from other SEC states. Maybe part of that is simply hiring Jimbo.

(07-24-2020 09:05 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise. I wouldn't exactly call them a success story, but then again, they weren't world beaters in the Big XII either. You have to go down to G5 to see anyone having success in their new conference. Houston, Western Kentucky, and Boise State have all done really well for themselves in their new conferences.

I do wonder how much of the lack of success on the part of a lot of P5 movers has been due to losing their old recruiting grounds and having a hard time establishing new ones. I know Nebraska losing Texas has hurt really bad, and they've basically lost western Iowa and are in the process of letting their home state get regularly raided. Pitt's move basketball-wise has cost them the ability to recruit NYC and Philly. West Virginia can't pull from Virginia, Pennsylvania, or Ohio since they're on such a geographic island.

Colorado, Nebraska and Missouri had major recruiting changes. Colorado was the only one of the 3 that had less Texas players than before joining the Big 12, but it was still very big. They have lost much of that pipeline. Nebraska shifted to heavily Texas in the Big 12 and now they are virtually shut out so they are shifting back more to a midwest/national model like they did in the 80s and 90s. Missouri became heavily Texas in the Big 12 and they have completely shifted that to Georgia and Florida where they have no history.

Interestingly, A&M recruits much more out of state than when they were in the Big 12. It seems much of the SEC incursion in Texas is getting players who otherwise would have gone to A&M, so they are picking up some talent from other SEC states. Maybe part of that is simply hiring Jimbo.

I was thinking this too. I had assumed that much of Nebraska and Mizzou's success during the B12 years was due to their direct pipeline to Texas. I think Mizzou would've been able to maintain it had they been put in the SEC west division (where it belongs) along with TAMU (trips to Texas every other year). Plus annual trips to LSU would help recruit Louisiana as well. The game vs Arkansas could/should be a divisional matchup where it would have more meaning as well and excitement for both fanbases.

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise.

A&M has averaged 8.3 wins per season in the SEC, and their worst season has been 7 wins with a best of 11, and no losing seasons. They have gone to a bowl all eight seasons with a 5-3 bowl record.

In their last eight seasons in the Big 12, TAMU averaged 6.75 wins a year, a low of 4 wins and a high of 9, and three of the eight seasons were losing seasons, they went 1-5 in bowls during that time**.

So I think it's fair to say they have improved since joining the SEC.


** One thing that seems to have helped with bowl records is the change in conference. TAMU was 0-3 vs SEC teams in bowl games as a member of the Big 12, it is 3-1 in bowl games vs the Big 12 as a member of the SEC.

(07-24-2020 07:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I still consider the SEC move a resounding success ...

It's easily the best realignment move - for both the conference and the school - of the last 25 years, arguably ever.

An A+ decision by TAMU and the SEC.

(07-24-2020 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 07:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I still consider the SEC move a resounding success ...

It's easily the best realignment move - for both the conference and the school - of the last 25 years, arguably ever.

An A+ decision by TAMU and the SEC.

D- for your analysis

Penn St. to Big 10?
Florida St. to ACC?
Formation of Big East with Miami?
Secession of SEC from Southern Conference?
And in last 25 years:
Formation of Big 12

(07-24-2020 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise.

A&M has averaged 8.3 wins per season in the SEC, and their worst season has been 7 wins with a best of 11, and no losing seasons. They have gone to a bowl all eight seasons with a 5-3 bowl record.

In their last eight seasons in the Big 12, TAMU averaged 6.75 wins a year, a low of 4 wins and a high of 9, and three of the eight seasons were losing seasons, they went 1-5 in bowls during that time**.

So I think it's fair to say they have improved since joining the SEC.


** One thing that seems to have helped with bowl records is the change in conference. TAMU was 0-3 vs SEC teams in bowl games as a member of the Big 12, it is 3-1 in bowl games vs the Big 12 as a member of the SEC.

Financially its been very good for them. Competitively, they've been almost exactly the same in conference. Fewer ups and downs but about the same. They've done better out of conference (25 losses in 16 seasons vs. 6 in 8). Don't know if that's easier scheduling or more success.
Conference record-SEC 6-2 once, 5-3 once, 4-4 5 times, 3-5 once.; 34-30 53.12%
Conference record Big 12 7-1 once, 6-2 twice, 5-3 4 times, 4-4 thrice, 4-5 once, 3-5 thrice, 2-6 twice; 68-61 52.71%

(07-24-2020 01:33 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise.

A&M has averaged 8.3 wins per season in the SEC, and their worst season has been 7 wins with a best of 11, and no losing seasons. They have gone to a bowl all eight seasons with a 5-3 bowl record.

In their last eight seasons in the Big 12, TAMU averaged 6.75 wins a year, a low of 4 wins and a high of 9, and three of the eight seasons were losing seasons, they went 1-5 in bowls during that time**.

So I think it's fair to say they have improved since joining the SEC.


** One thing that seems to have helped with bowl records is the change in conference. TAMU was 0-3 vs SEC teams in bowl games as a member of the Big 12, it is 3-1 in bowl games vs the Big 12 as a member of the SEC.

Financially its been very good for them. Competitively, they've been almost exactly the same in conference. Fewer ups and downs but about the same. They've done better out of conference (25 losses in 16 seasons vs. 6 in 8). Don't know if that's easier scheduling or more success.
Conference record-SEC 6-2 once, 5-3 once, 4-4 5 times, 3-5 once.; 34-30 53.12%
Conference record Big 12 7-1 once, 6-2 twice, 5-3 4 times, 4-4 thrice, 4-5 once, 3-5 thrice, 2-6 twice; 68-61 52.71%

Two of those 8 were against Clemson. They've been better overall. The reason it is seems they are doing the same is because the SEC West is just brutal.

I decided to take a quantitive approach to this by looking at schools that moved between the BCS leagues from 2004-2014. Below is a comparison of their results mirrored with the equal number of prior seasons:

Texas A&M +0.117
Virginia Tech +0.039
Syracuse +0.035
Boston College -0.016
BYU -0.018
Pittsburgh -0.022
Louisville -0.033
Nebraska -0.060
Colorado -0.093
Missouri -0.095
Utah -0.128
Maryland -0.131
TCU -0.201
West Virginia -0.213
Miami -0.231
Rutgers -0.298

So 3 of the 16 have actually improved since moving. TAMU was playing very poorly at the end of their tenure and it appears the SEC branding is improving their fortunes. VT similarly benefited by moving to the dream conference they’ve wanted since 1953. Syracuse was a bit of a surprise but that one 10 win season really ballooned the ACC figures.

BC, BYU, Pitt, and L’ville haven’t suffered much by moving.

The other 3 former Big 12 schools form a little cluster in the trending downward category.

Utah and TCU have taken a bit of a pounding since moving into the big leagues, which I anticipated (but both have appeared in title games since moving and TCU has a shared conference title from the stint where there was no CCG in the Big 12 so those are positives.

The two schools who joined the Big Ten in 2014 have clearly taken a beating in that East division.

WVU is a big surprise here so near the bottom and then obviously you have the once mighty Hurricanes who have fallen from on high.

I also tried looking at things from an era perspective since many of these schools joined conferences in 1991 or 1996 (or in L’ville’s case, 1996 and 2005 and in TCU’s case 1996, 2001, and 2005). So here are the old conference to new differences:

Texas A&M +0.090
Pitt +0.059
VT -0.001
Missouri -0.002
BC -0.016
BYU -0.033
L’ville -0.075
Utah -0.089
WVU -0.092
Syracuse -0.112
Rutgers -0.139
Maryland -0.141
Nebraska -0.155
Colorado -0.157
TCU -0.201
Miami -0.216

Some notes here: for Big East founders, the BE data goes back to 1991. Big 12 founders’ data is back to 1996. MWC founders to 1999. Louisville and TCU’s data is back to 2005 when they most recently jumped conferences. Maryland’s is also to 2005 and the beginning of the CCG era in the ACC. If you want to take L’ville, TCU, BYU, and Utah’s numbers back to 1996, the year of the WAC-16 and C-USA’s founding your numbers are:

BYU -0.048
L’ville -0.057
Utah -0.071
TCU -0.092

One thing you’ll notice when you look over a longer period for most of these schools (save the 3 04-05 ACC additions who have all spent more time in The ACC than they did in BE FB) is that the changes are less dramatic, which is supported by the idea that programs tend to get snatched up when they are in an upswing.

(07-24-2020 01:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 07:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I still consider the SEC move a resounding success ...

It's easily the best realignment move - for both the conference and the school - of the last 25 years, arguably ever.

An A+ decision by TAMU and the SEC.

D- for your analysis

Penn St. to Big 10?
Florida St. to ACC?
Formation of Big East with Miami?
Secession of SEC from Southern Conference?
And in last 25 years:
Formation of Big 12

F+ for your analysis

Penn State joined the B1G more than 25 years ago, and arguably hasn't worked out as well as TAMU to the SEC. Penn State has never fit in culturally with the B1G, still feels like they should be Indy or in an eastern conference.

FSU to ACC was also more than 25 years ago, and they've never integrated into the ACC either. They just took their winning ways from the independence days and brought them to the ACC.

The other two things aren't examples of one school joining a conference but rather conferences forming or dissolving so bizarro to even mention them.

(07-24-2020 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise.

A&M has averaged 8.3 wins per season in the SEC, and their worst season has been 7 wins with a best of 11, and no losing seasons. They have gone to a bowl all eight seasons with a 5-3 bowl record.

In their last eight seasons in the Big 12, TAMU averaged 6.75 wins a year, a low of 4 wins and a high of 9, and three of the eight seasons were losing seasons, they went 1-5 in bowls during that time**.

So I think it's fair to say they have improved since joining the SEC.


** One thing that seems to have helped with bowl records is the change in conference. TAMU was 0-3 vs SEC teams in bowl games as a member of the Big 12, it is 3-1 in bowl games vs the Big 12 as a member of the SEC.

It helps when the SEC commish gets to hand pick the matchups for bowl season after the Sugar Bowl selection.

But I think aggy has been a success in the SEC, the Texas recruting pool has been opened for SEC schools.. The beauty about it, for all the SEC pumping aggy put on the trail, kids buy in and sign with it's divisional foes and aggy fans are pumped "because they didn't go to tee uuu".

I don't buy the brutal division talk when ole miss, arkansas have been bad. MSU has been up and down.. Auburn seems good only in odd seasons. LSU always tough, but managed to find an offense.. but what about the prior seasons? It's just another excuse of why aggy hasn't "broken through".

(07-25-2020 07:35 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 09:38 PM)Mav Wrote:  A&M has had Manziel and has been mediocre otherwise.

A&M has averaged 8.3 wins per season in the SEC, and their worst season has been 7 wins with a best of 11, and no losing seasons. They have gone to a bowl all eight seasons with a 5-3 bowl record.

In their last eight seasons in the Big 12, TAMU averaged 6.75 wins a year, a low of 4 wins and a high of 9, and three of the eight seasons were losing seasons, they went 1-5 in bowls during that time**.

So I think it's fair to say they have improved since joining the SEC.


** One thing that seems to have helped with bowl records is the change in conference. TAMU was 0-3 vs SEC teams in bowl games as a member of the Big 12, it is 3-1 in bowl games vs the Big 12 as a member of the SEC.

It helps when the SEC commish gets to hand pick the matchups for bowl season after the Sugar Bowl selection.

Well, the SEC is often at a disadvantage in the non-NY6 bowls, because it usually puts multiple teams in the NY6, which means weaker teams get bumped up to better non-NY6 bowls. For example, last year the Big 12 put two teams in the NY6, the SEC put four teams in. So that means down the bowl ladder, if a bowl is supposed to be "SEC #3 vs Big 12 #3", what happens is it ends up being SEC #5 vs Big 12 #3. That has happened a lot in the CFP and BCS era.

Quo—what exactly is your justification for why Penn St doesn’t fit in the Big Ten?

For Ohio St fans the Penn St game is the second biggest game of the year. Unlike the Michigan series there’s a lot of mutual respect between the two programs and what they’ve accomplished. The Nittany Lions have have competitive and exciting series against the Michigan schools. For newcomers Maryland and Rutgers it’s their biggest game—though one they aren’t likely to win.

(07-25-2020 11:00 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Quo—what exactly is your justification for why Penn St doesn’t fit in the Big Ten?

For Ohio St fans the Penn St game is the second biggest game of the year. Unlike the Michigan series there’s a lot of mutual respect between the two programs and what they’ve accomplished. The Nittany Lions have have competitive and exciting series against the Michigan schools. For newcomers Maryland and Rutgers it’s their biggest game—though one they aren’t likely to win.

I agree, living in this area, Penn State is a perfect fit. Yes they are to the east, who cares? They fit nicely and complement the other schools in the eastern division. They belong with Ohio State and Michigan more than they belong anywhere else.

TCU has finished in the Top 10 3 times since joining the Big 12 in 2012. I think that is better than anyone else that switched leagues. QB troubles the last two years have slowed us down, but I believe we are again on an upward trajectory.

I would say Memphis, Houston, and UCF have made good use of realignment IMHO

(07-25-2020 11:07 AM)cubucks Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 11:00 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Quo—what exactly is your justification for why Penn St doesn’t fit in the Big Ten?

For Ohio St fans the Penn St game is the second biggest game of the year. Unlike the Michigan series there’s a lot of mutual respect between the two programs and what they’ve accomplished. The Nittany Lions have have competitive and exciting series against the Michigan schools. For newcomers Maryland and Rutgers it’s their biggest game—though one they aren’t likely to win.

I agree, living in this area, Penn State is a perfect fit. Yes they are to the east, who cares? They fit nicely and complement the other schools in the eastern division. They belong with Ohio State and Michigan more than they belong anywhere else.

Happy Valley feels very midwestern. Unlike Rutgers/Maryland, not sure how you can go to Happy Valley and walk away with the conclusion it’s a Big Ten misfit.

Their best fit clearly would’ve been the Big East, but since that no longer exists, their best cultural fit is with OSU/UM/MSU.

(07-24-2020 08:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 01:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 07:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I still consider the SEC move a resounding success ...

It's easily the best realignment move - for both the conference and the school - of the last 25 years, arguably ever.

An A+ decision by TAMU and the SEC.

D- for your analysis

Penn St. to Big 10?
Florida St. to ACC?
Formation of Big East with Miami?
Secession of SEC from Southern Conference?
And in last 25 years:
Formation of Big 12

F+ for your analysis

Penn State joined the B1G more than 25 years ago, and arguably hasn't worked out as well as TAMU to the SEC. Penn State has never fit in culturally with the B1G, still feels like they should be Indy or in an eastern conference.

FSU to ACC was also more than 25 years ago, and they've never integrated into the ACC either. They just took their winning ways from the independence days and brought them to the ACC.

The other two things aren't examples of one school joining a conference but rather conferences forming or dissolving so bizarro to even mention them.

F- for your followup.
Penn St. expanded the Big 10 market and the number of premier matchups. Revenues took off.
FSU made the ACC, turning them from a conference viewed as a tweener in football to a major conference. They are very much an ACC school.
A&M was a big financial winner for the SEC, but the SEC's dominance has slipped since the last expansion (not that it was reasonable to expect them to continue to win the championship nearly every year).
Yes, they were more than 25 years ago, but you said A&M was arguably the best ever. Your words. Its only arguable by a D student.

And your comment said realignment move, not expansion. The others were realignment moves.

I'd add Marshall to the MAC as a better move within the last 25 years. Marshall to the MAC was relatively (for the MAC) as big as FSU to the ACC. It woke up the whole conference. They started regularly getting ranked schools after going over 20 years without one.

(07-25-2020 01:40 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 08:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 01:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 07:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  I still consider the SEC move a resounding success ...

It's easily the best realignment move - for both the conference and the school - of the last 25 years, arguably ever.

An A+ decision by TAMU and the SEC.

D- for your analysis

Penn St. to Big 10?
Florida St. to ACC?
Formation of Big East with Miami?
Secession of SEC from Southern Conference?
And in last 25 years:
Formation of Big 12

F+ for your analysis

Penn State joined the B1G more than 25 years ago, and arguably hasn't worked out as well as TAMU to the SEC. Penn State has never fit in culturally with the B1G, still feels like they should be Indy or in an eastern conference.

FSU to ACC was also more than 25 years ago, and they've never integrated into the ACC either. They just took their winning ways from the independence days and brought them to the ACC.

The other two things aren't examples of one school joining a conference but rather conferences forming or dissolving so bizarro to even mention them.

F- for your followup.
Penn St. expanded the Big 10 market and the number of premier matchups. Revenues took off.
FSU made the ACC, turning them from a conference viewed as a tweener in football to a major conference. They are very much an ACC school.
A&M was a big financial winner for the SEC, but the SEC's dominance has slipped since the last expansion (not that it was reasonable to expect them to continue to win the championship nearly every year).
Yes, they were more than 25 years ago, but you said A&M was arguably the best ever. Your words. Its only arguable by a D student.

And your comment said realignment move, not expansion. The others were realignment moves.

I'd add Marshall to the MAC as a better move within the last 25 years. Marshall to the MAC was relatively (for the MAC) as big as FSU to the ACC. It woke up the whole conference. They started regularly getting ranked schools after going over 20 years without one.

For years, FSU was the face of ACC football. That's impressive for being a newer member. It has now switched to Clemson, but FSU is still right there.