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Response to the killing of George Floyd
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #461
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-01-2020 12:01 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I stopped giving a rat's ass about the Oscars almost a score years ago.

I don't think I ever started.
07-01-2020 02:55 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #462
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-01-2020 02:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-01-2020 12:01 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I stopped giving a rat's ass about the Oscars almost a score years ago.

I don't think I ever started.

I used to care, decades back, before the presenters and awardees started wagging their finger at me. Of course, back then I thought the awards were for the Best this or that, not the best this or that by a woman or a black.
(This post was last modified: 07-01-2020 03:16 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-01-2020 03:15 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #463
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-01-2020 03:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-01-2020 02:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-01-2020 12:01 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I stopped giving a rat's ass about the Oscars almost a score years ago.

I don't think I ever started.

I used to care, decades back, before the presenters and awardees started wagging their finger at me. Of course, back then I thought the awards were for the Best this or that, not the best this or that by a woman or a black.

Actually if you take the article at face values, the award should be:
Best Movie that had over x% black production staff

Kind of a far cry and massive delimiter from...... Best Movie.
07-01-2020 04:24 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #464
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
Some of our citizens think they would like to live in a place effectively without police. Maybe they should try Guanajuato.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/gun...li=BBnbcA1
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2020 12:20 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-02-2020 12:19 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #465
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 12:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Some of our citizens think they would like to live in a place effectively without police. Maybe they should try Guanajuato.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/gun...li=BBnbcA1

Or Las Vegas, or Orlando, or Blacksburg, or Newton, or Sutherland Springs, or El Paso, or :insert US city where a mass shooting took place:

Bad argument, OO. We still experience mass shootings in the US in cities where LEOs exist. That also doesn’t touch on the fact that the overwhelming opinion is not to completely get rid of LEOs, but rather make systemic changes through funding shifts or complete reorganization.
07-02-2020 05:48 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #466
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 05:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Or Las Vegas, or Orlando, or Blacksburg, or Newton, or Sutherland Springs, or El Paso, or :insert US city where a mass shooting took place:

The numbers in any of those places are far lower as a percent of population than they are in lawless places with no or badly understaffed police.

Quote:Bad argument, OO. We still experience mass shootings in the US in cities where LEOs exist. That also doesn’t touch on the fact that the overwhelming opinion is not to completely get rid of LEOs, but rather make systemic changes through funding shifts or complete reorganization.

The overwhelming opinion seems to be, "let's not sell this as completely getting rid of LEOs, but rather make systematic changes," which will have the inevitable impact of eliminating effective police forces. The problem I have is that at this point, I've been lied to enough that I simply don't trust those "overwhelming opinions" to be the truth. They say they want to reorganize and shift funding; what they really want to do is to eliminate any effective law enforcement.
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2020 06:11 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-02-2020 06:10 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #467
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 06:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-02-2020 05:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Or Las Vegas, or Orlando, or Blacksburg, or Newton, or Sutherland Springs, or El Paso, or :insert US city where a mass shooting took place:

The numbers in any of those places are far lower as a percent of population than they are in lawless places with no or badly understaffed police.

Quote:Bad argument, OO. We still experience mass shootings in the US in cities where LEOs exist. That also doesn’t touch on the fact that the overwhelming opinion is not to completely get rid of LEOs, but rather make systemic changes through funding shifts or complete reorganization.

The overwhelming opinion seems to be, "let's not sell this as completely getting rid of LEOs, but rather make systematic changes," which will have the inevitable impact of eliminating effective police forces. The problem I have is that at this point, I've been lied to enough that I simply don't trust those "overwhelming opinions" to be the truth. They say they want to reorganize and shift funding; what they really want to do is to eliminate any effective law enforcement.

Good to know you’ve got the inside scoop.
07-02-2020 06:45 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #468
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 06:45 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Good to know you’ve got the inside scoop.

Not so much inside scoop as absolute, total distrust.
07-02-2020 07:07 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #469
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 06:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  They say they want to reorganize and shift funding; what they really want to do is to eliminate any effective law enforcement.


"Eliminate" is a bit harsh; they just want to make law enforcement as effective, cost-efficient, and non-political as public education. :)

But the contrast in approaches in interesting. In the case of law enforcement, the call is to reduce funding to existing agencies, to increase scrutiny of unionized workers, and to experiment with new forms.

When it comes to another government industry that has failed scores of millions of poor and minorities for generations, the perpetual "solution" (really an article of faith) is exactly the opposite: to always increase funding for existing agencies, to resist scrutiny of unionized workers, and to viciously oppose experimentation with new forms.
07-02-2020 08:36 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #470
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 05:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-02-2020 12:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Some of our citizens think they would like to live in a place effectively without police. Maybe they should try Guanajuato.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/gun...li=BBnbcA1

Or Las Vegas, or Orlando, or Blacksburg, or Newton, or Sutherland Springs, or El Paso, or :insert US city where a mass shooting took place:

Bad argument, OO. We still experience mass shootings in the US in cities where LEOs exist. That also doesn’t touch on the fact that the overwhelming opinion is not to completely get rid of LEOs, but rather make systemic changes through funding shifts or complete reorganization.

You seem to be confusing random acts by random individuals with organized crime being in control of the city and dictating to police where and how they respond.

Eliminate the police in Las Vegas, or Orlando, or Blackberg, etc, and all you will do is open the city up to control by organized crime, as in Mexico.

"The state of Guanajuato, home to major industry and a number of large auto manufacturing plants, is plagued by organized crime violence."

In short, lad, apples to oranges.
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2020 09:14 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-02-2020 09:11 AM
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Post: #471
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
removal of Mt. Rushmore

So who supports this? I am only asking the liberals.
07-02-2020 08:32 PM
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flash3200 Offline
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Post: #472
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 08:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  removal of Mt. Rushmore

So who supports this? I am only asking the liberals.

As a non-leftist citizen of a Native American tribe, I am ambivalent about the potential removal of Mt. Rushmore, but generally agree its not worth the effort to remove it.

The primary grievance over Mt. Rushmore is that the area is of sacred value to Sioux tribe. I would lend positive support to this grievance if the Lakota were not also carving their own garish roadside attraction down the road (a mere 17 miles away!), so I do not necessarily see their opposition as some deep rooted spiritual harm caused by carving mountainsides like they are a Cracker Barrel tchotchke, but merely a way to foist generational disdain at what is decidedly a monument to F-you'ism that was constructed while the still living generation of previously sovereign Sioux had been assigned to their miserable white man reservation across the state. Are the Sioux also mad at the Lakota for doing the same or are they just mad at staring at this dumb thing for the last 100 years?

Mt. Rushmore is garish, in bad taste, and a symbol of F'you-ism. In other words, right up Trump's alley! Does that mean it should be dismantled? No. It would not solve any problems and I suppose some people enjoy unfettered patriotism at the expense of destroying what was otherwise a pristine hillside in the wilderness. People should spend their energy solving real problems and not trying to sanitize our environment of artifacts that make them uncomfortable.
07-04-2020 12:05 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #473
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-02-2020 08:36 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(07-02-2020 06:10 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  They say they want to reorganize and shift funding; what they really want to do is to eliminate any effective law enforcement.
"Eliminate" is a bit harsh; they just want to make law enforcement as effective, cost-efficient, and non-political as public education. :)
But the contrast in approaches in interesting. In the case of law enforcement, the call is to reduce funding to existing agencies, to increase scrutiny of unionized workers, and to experiment with new forms.
When it comes to another government industry that has failed scores of millions of poor and minorities for generations, the perpetual "solution" (really an article of faith) is exactly the opposite: to always increase funding for existing agencies, to resist scrutiny of unionized workers, and to viciously oppose experimentation with new forms.

As another analogy, I would point out that, "we spend more than anybody else but get mediocre results" (we do spend more, whether the results are mediocre is a matter of opinion), was deemed ample reason to try to turn health care into a government industry, but the exact same description can somehow not be applied to the unnamed other government industry to which you refer.
07-04-2020 04:56 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #474
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-04-2020 12:05 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  
(07-02-2020 08:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  removal of Mt. Rushmore

So who supports this? I am only asking the liberals.

As a non-leftist citizen of a Native American tribe, I am ambivalent about the potential removal of Mt. Rushmore, but generally agree its not worth the effort to remove it.

The primary grievance over Mt. Rushmore is that the area is of sacred value to Sioux tribe. I would lend positive support to this grievance if the Lakota were not also carving their own garish roadside attraction down the road (a mere 17 miles away!), so I do not necessarily see their opposition as some deep rooted spiritual harm caused by carving mountainsides like they are a Cracker Barrel tchotchke, but merely a way to foist generational disdain at what is decidedly a monument to F-you'ism that was constructed while the still living generation of previously sovereign Sioux had been assigned to their miserable white man reservation across the state. Are the Sioux also mad at the Lakota for doing the same or are they just mad at staring at this dumb thing for the last 100 years?

Mt. Rushmore is garish, in bad taste, and a symbol of F'you-ism. In other words, right up Trump's alley! Does that mean it should be dismantled? No. It would not solve any problems and I suppose some people enjoy unfettered patriotism at the expense of destroying what was otherwise a pristine hillside in the wilderness. People should spend their energy solving real problems and not trying to sanitize our environment of artifacts that make them uncomfortable.

As a non leftist, non member of any tribe who nonetheless sports 5% NA ancestry(probably Mayan), I somewhat agree - this project would not meet my approval today, but since it is here, let it stay. For one thing, it is a major source of revenue and employment for South Dakota, both NA and Anglo citizenry.



As art, is carving a mountain that much different that any of the celebrated projects of Christo ?
07-04-2020 08:30 AM
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flash3200 Offline
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Post: #475
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
As a heavily right leaning libertarian, I fully support the defund the police initiative. It blows my mind that these so called "conservatives" that are supposedly proponents of limited government and individual rights are in support of the sprawling and unfettered militarization of local and state law enforcement. We effectively have standing armies that harass and disenfranchise our population along with supporting a prison industry that imprisons more people than any county outside of China and North Korea. How can you support that? We should get rid of 90% of the system top to bottom, Feds to local.

From Waco to the sham prosecution of Trump by an out of control justice department, so-called conservatives cry like little children about out of control government reach. When we actually get a movement to do something about it, they back off because they dont like the other side. You cant make this stuff up. I hate marxists too, but willing to work with them on this.
07-04-2020 08:57 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #476
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-04-2020 08:57 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  As a heavily right leaning libertarian, I fully support the defund the police initiative. It blows my mind that these so called "conservatives" that are supposedly proponents of limited government and individual rights are in support of the sprawling and unfettered militarization of local and state law enforcement. We effectively have standing armies that harass and disenfranchise our population along with supporting a prison industry that imprisons more people than any county outside of China and North Korea. How can you support that? We should get rid of 90% of the system top to bottom, Feds to local.

From Waco to the sham prosecution of Trump by an out of control justice department, so-called conservatives cry like little children about out of control government reach. When we actually get a movement to do something about it, they back off because they dont like the other side. You cant make this stuff up. I hate marxists too, but willing to work with them on this.

Speaking of Waco, I know it doesn’t paint an unbiased picture, but I recently watched the Wace mini series on Netflix. I knew the gist of what happened, but having been so young when it occurred, I didn’t know a lot of the details.

I feel like everyone should learn about that standoff so they can appreciate your classical libertarian view of limited law enforcement. That situation was completely ******.
07-04-2020 09:36 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #477
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-04-2020 08:57 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  As a heavily right leaning libertarian, I fully support the defund the police initiative. It blows my mind that these so called "conservatives" that are supposedly proponents of limited government and individual rights are in support of the sprawling and unfettered militarization of local and state law enforcement. We effectively have standing armies that harass and disenfranchise our population along with supporting a prison industry that imprisons more people than any county outside of China and North Korea. How can you support that? We should get rid of 90% of the system top to bottom, Feds to local.

From Waco to the sham prosecution of Trump by an out of control justice department, so-called conservatives cry like little children about out of control government reach. When we actually get a movement to do something about it, they back off because they dont like the other side. You cant make this stuff up. I hate marxists too, but willing to work with them on this.

As a conservative, I too think too many many people are prison, for too long for too little an infraction, and I have actively and personally taken steps in the area of rehabilitation of felons after release. I think the areas that need the most change are legislation and sentencing.

I take issue with your usage of the word "unfettered". I think our police are plenty fettered.

Keeping it local, one of our libertarian posters has made some suggestions. My objections are mostly of the "how will this work" and "will it solve the problem" variety.

For example, I think sending a social worker to resolve a DV incident will result much of the time in a peaceful, if temporary, settlement - and occasionally end in the social workers death. How occasionally? Well, more than would happen if we sent an armed officer instead.

But I am willing to listen.

Defunding, as it appears to be meant by the mobs, seems to be a first step to abolishing police. Replaced with what? In Mexico,, we see plenty of examples where the police are powerless in the face of the cartels. So who is going to take their place in, say, Chicago, and will that result in less citizens being shot?

Give me details of how it work. I don't like to take leaps of faith - I can handle leaps where I know where will land.
07-04-2020 09:50 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #478
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
(07-04-2020 08:57 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  As a heavily right leaning libertarian, I fully support the defund the police initiative. It blows my mind that these so called "conservatives" that are supposedly proponents of limited government and individual rights are in support of the sprawling and unfettered militarization of local and state law enforcement. We effectively have standing armies that harass and disenfranchise our population along with supporting a prison industry that imprisons more people than any county outside of China and North Korea. How can you support that? We should get rid of 90% of the system top to bottom, Feds to local.
From Waco to the sham prosecution of Trump by an out of control justice department, so-called conservatives cry like little children about out of control government reach. When we actually get a movement to do something about it, they back off because they dont like the other side. You cant make this stuff up. I hate marxists too, but willing to work with them on this.

I am not willing to work with Marxists on anything. Their whole MO, going back to Marx's dialectic materialism, is to get part of what they want this year, then a bit more next year, without ever giving anything in return.

To those who call for compromise, I say this. Compromise means give and take--I give up something to you, and you give up something to me. So what do you want, and what are you willing to give up to get it?

As far as police, what I've seen is that an inordinate amount of incidents resulting in deaths of officers or citizens--white or black--result from traffic stop situations that escalate. So I would turn over all traffic enforcement to cameras and electronic means. I realize that's a libertarian's heart attack stuff, but practically it seems to make a lot of sense. You get more consistent enforcement of traffic laws, rather than just catching those where an officer happens to be there, and you eliminate a situation that seems to cause far more problems than it solves.

I would also legalize and tax marijuana, and decriminalize the rest, so that one of the bigger (if not the biggest) sources of disparity between whites and blacks goes away. Treat it as a disease rather than a criminal violation. In fact, simple drug cases might be a pretty good place to experiment with unarmed officers and social workers.

With those two changes, the number of officers required should be reduced substantially. With that, you can afford to pay them more and to require better training and higher standards.
07-04-2020 10:50 AM
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Post: #479
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
First of all, cops don't prevent crime; society prevents crime. We have generational issues with respect to violence in the Americas that the old world doesn't have, especially when you look at Latin America which has been a meat grinder since the days of colonization. This means that any solution to over-policing can't be fixed overnight, but will need to take on a generational approach to take down this system while also improving society much like the generational approach of Nixon-Reagan-Clinton era "Law & Order" prison & police militarization campaign took 30 years to enact. In 1968, there were only 187,000 inmates in state & federal custody representing 0.09% of the US Population. As of 2016, we have 2.3 million prisoners representing 0.7% of the population which is almost an 800% increase in the rate of incarceration in the United States. This alarming statistic doesn't even capture the unconstitutional civil asset forfeiture laws, lack of prosecution of negligent use of force by authorities, and extreme militarization of police forces.

What is the answer? I am not sure. The answer sure isn't going to be "more police" or "more criminal statutes". We have already privatized parts of the confinement economy, let's instead focus on privatizing the rehabilitation industry and allow economic benefit to flow to organizations that can rehabilitate better than the state. Perhaps we can establish a for-profit rehabilitation economy so that we can directly optimize rehabilitation rates against government expenditure (charter prisons?). What I do know, despite our flag waving enthusiasm for liberty, we live in a society that confines people at a rate on par with North Korea and China. We should find all of the solutions it will to take to decrease our incarceration rate by 90% which would then be on par with most civilized societies.

Personally, I feel comfortable with the prospect of liberating large numbers of citizens from prisons and incrementally defunding law enforcement beginning immediately and looking for answers on how to control criminality at a later date. Of course, I enjoy a level of self-determination allowed by liberal firearm laws in Harris County, perhaps we should look to roll back gun control laws in other areas of the country that lack this level of self-determination. A mix of increased self-determination along with technology advancements in security monitoring (you can now essentially record 24-7 all of your residence, car, & person for use in criminal & civil actions against other people) will go a long way towards reduced reliance of the police state to solve our societal problems.
07-04-2020 11:33 AM
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Post: #480
RE: Response to the killing of George Floyd
Although I don't call myself a Libertarian, a lot of people have told me I should be one.

I am fine with legalizing MJ, and I have thought for decades we should reduce the number of people we send to prison and the number of years they spend there, and I am all for helping released felons find jobs. As an employer, I hired released felons and never had a problem with them.

But I am not comfortable with just defunding or eliminating police, until we have a workable solution. I can remember sitting in my locked motel room in Mexico while hearing machine gun fire outside. That is what I think we will have here if all the police are both impotent and inadequate to the tasks.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2020 02:27 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-04-2020 02:22 PM
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