The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(06-05-2020 07:01 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 05:28 PM)ArmyROTC86 Wrote:  How many years of military service and combat tours do you have?

(06-04-2020 05:15 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Racist or not, this is sickening to me. Needless brutality and that is exactly the point. I'm sick and tired of people defending this type of brutality. And the national anthem is the perfect time to draw attention to injustice.

https://twitter.com/susankilfoy/status/1...0281724930

You don't need to be law enforcement to realize American citizens shouldn't be murdered when they are unarmed and complying.

You don't need to be a lawyer to know that Armaud Arbery was shot down by racist vigilantes, who decided they would be the judge and jury.

And you don't need to be a veteran to have an opinion on the anthem protests.

Agree with your first statement.

Ignorant (no opinion) on the second.

Agree with the 3rd... I think people bring up the veteran stuff to help others understand why they see things the way they do. However, of course, everyone has the right to their own opinion.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

(06-04-2020 05:15 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Racist or not, this is sickening to me. Needless brutality and that is exactly the point. I'm sick and tired of people defending this type of brutality. And the national anthem is the perfect time to draw attention to injustice.

https://twitter.com/susankilfoy/status/1...0281724930

I get the idea of kneeling during the anthem but didn't all this current chaos start because a cop was kneeling?

(06-05-2020 08:42 AM)FTW ODU Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 05:15 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Racist or not, this is sickening to me. Needless brutality and that is exactly the point. I'm sick and tired of people defending this type of brutality. And the national anthem is the perfect time to draw attention to injustice.

https://twitter.com/susankilfoy/status/1...0281724930

I get the idea of kneeling during the anthem but didn't all this current chaos start because a cop was kneeling?

I think that's the point some protesters are making: if you're more angry about Colin Kapernick kneeling during the anthem than a cop kneeling on the neck of a black man until he dies, then you've got messed up priorities.

(06-04-2020 03:41 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:37 PM)Big4Blue Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:13 AM)Big4Blue Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 08:54 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Interesting hypothesis... but again just empty claims.

Empty claims? I think not.

Sadly, history does repeat itself. We can look back at many laws which have been used over the years to disenfranchise minorities legally, socially and economically. We can look at well-worn phrases such as ‘silent majority’ & ‘family values’ & yes, to get to a place that I believe is driving some recent comments, ‘Make America Great.’ Or how about ‘fine people on both sides’ or ‘thugs.’ This 60+ YO white man knows wolf whistles and rationalization when he hears it.

What was this thread about again?

I'm not sure, but your entire rant is nothing more than your gut opinions. There is no substance or fact there. What you are doing is what you accuse others or doing... taking individuals, lumping them into made up groups, stereotyping, and acting on those stereotypes. That isn't going to work if America is going to have this conversation and work something out.

I’m not sure where you gain the idea of ‘rant,’ but so be it. I am not making ‘accusations’ so much as referring to historic facts. I might add a consistent pattern of deflection and denial from many whites when Blacks attempt to demonstrate peacefully. Heard of Colin Kapernick? Those of us who refuse to engage the problem, whether calling people out or at least using our votes, are a big part of this tragedy. That includes North as well as South.

You appear to be lumping everyone that cares about things such as family values into a single group and defining them as racist, make some broad comment about laws which have been used over the years to disenfranchise minorities legally, socially and economically without defining anything relevant right now and then you indirectly give a deranged synopsis of the president. It is unhelpful and will not bring anyone to the table nor solve anything nor acknowledge any legitimacy to any other opinions. My grandfather died in WWII and my father was wounded in Vietnam. Is it really that big of a stretch for you to see why Colin Kaepernick lost most people when he started that stuff?

Your family members’s service to our country is noted, appreciated and respected. It does NOT gain them my worship or blind obedience. They were fighting not for the flag, but for what the flag should represent....”liberty and justice for ALL’... When thinking of Kaepernick’s action, consider him to be making a PEACEFUL statement of disappointment that we are falling far short of our ideals.

On the quotes I shared, such as ‘family values,’ I refer to the fact thesE are used as code words by many white folks...not all...and not all evangelicals...But a large number of corrupt individuals and the politicians who use these words to be elected and pass laws such as those I referenced earlier, which disproportionally affect Blacks. These and other things I referenced earlier take away hope and opportunity and lead to more clashes with police.

As far as a ‘deranged synopsis of the president,’ shame on me for reporting his own words.

I’ll leave you the last word...

(06-04-2020 03:46 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:59 PM)ODU AGGIE Wrote:  Reference some earlier posts, I don't believe you could find 12 people anywhere who would acquit these cops regardless of the law and the case presented. As well it should be.

When Casey Anthony was acquitted, George Zimmerman, OJ Simpson, etc.; how can you truly believe this?

Because the whole nation watched it on television, and it was a horrific scene to see. As to the OJ trial, I will guarantee you will not see a jury nulification like that in this case. I firmly believe all four will be convicted.

(06-05-2020 11:23 AM)ODU AGGIE Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 03:46 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:59 PM)ODU AGGIE Wrote:  Reference some earlier posts, I don't believe you could find 12 people anywhere who would acquit these cops regardless of the law and the case presented. As well it should be.

When Casey Anthony was acquitted, George Zimmerman, OJ Simpson, etc.; how can you truly believe this?

Because the whole nation watched it on television, and it was a horrific scene to see. As to the OJ trial, I will guarantee you will not see a jury nulification like that in this case. I firmly believe all four will be convicted.

You have more faith than I do! I think the main culprit will be convicted of something but would not be shocked if it is less than a life sentence.

I wouldn't be shocked in the least if the remaining 3+ police officers get a slap on the wrist at best. I would venture to say that is what I expect to happen to them.

(06-05-2020 11:33 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(06-05-2020 11:23 AM)ODU AGGIE Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 03:46 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:59 PM)ODU AGGIE Wrote:  Reference some earlier posts, I don't believe you could find 12 people anywhere who would acquit these cops regardless of the law and the case presented. As well it should be.

When Casey Anthony was acquitted, George Zimmerman, OJ Simpson, etc.; how can you truly believe this?

Because the whole nation watched it on television, and it was a horrific scene to see. As to the OJ trial, I will guarantee you will not see a jury nulification like that in this case. I firmly believe all four will be convicted.

You have more faith than I do! I think the main culprit will be convicted of something but would not be shocked if it is less than a life sentence.

I wouldn't be shocked in the least if the remaining 3+ police officers get a slap on the wrist at best. I would venture to say that is what I expect to happen to them.

Agree, I have low expectations and will be pleasantly surprised if they are exceeded.

(06-04-2020 05:28 PM)ArmyROTC86 Wrote:  How many years of military service and combat tours do you have?

(06-04-2020 05:15 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Racist or not, this is sickening to me. Needless brutality and that is exactly the point. I'm sick and tired of people defending this type of brutality. And the national anthem is the perfect time to draw attention to injustice.

https://twitter.com/susankilfoy/status/1...0281724930

ArmyROTC86,

Tell that to the WWII vets like Isaac Woodard who just returned home from the war in uniform and was blinded by racists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Woodard

Tell that to the WWI vets who were lynched by racists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-Am...orld_War_I

The reality is the anthem and flag doesn't mean the same to everyone in this country. And some of you all here might be descendants of some evil people. The type of people who brought their kids to lynchings like it was a family event and made postcards from it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_postcards
https://abhmuseum.org/an-iconic-lynching-in-the-north/

This is real American history.

Kneeling during the anthem was an attempt to get people who constantly MOVE THE GOALPOSTS to acknowledge and talk about what this country was founded on, and the atrocities accepted by the white majority. Move past some fabric and some symbolic song and help make this place for everyone.

Tell that to George Stinney who was falsely arrested and convicted for the rape of murder of two white girls. He was electrocuted at age 14. It took the white racist jury less than 10 minutes to convict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stinney


Like I said in my previous post by Grandfather was a black soldier in WWII and my Dad also served. My Dad had the same opinion as me. If you really spend enough time around black active duty and veterans, most were not offended by the kneeling. They know the history of our people fighting for a country that has many times turned its back on us. Black people have fought in every single war for this country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Am...%20forces.

"In the Revolutionary War, slave owners often let their slaves enlist in the war with promises of freedom, but many were put back into slavery after the conclusion of the war."

Try Harder.

That flag and anthem is not the same for us, but I still love this country.

I just want to thank everyone on keeping this discussion cordial. I know it's a low bar to hurdle. But as one of the mods, I appreciate it. Keep it up, please.

Oh and until black lives matter, it's impossible for all to matter.

(06-05-2020 01:11 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I just want to thank everyone on keeping this discussion cordial. I know it's a low bar to hurdle. But as one of the mods, I appreciate it. Keep it up, please.

Oh and until black lives matter, it's impossible for all to matter.

Agreed, lets keep the name calling for our discussions of Recruiting, JJ, WS, and ODU Sports in general

(06-05-2020 09:57 AM)Big4Blue Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 03:41 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:37 PM)Big4Blue Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:13 AM)Big4Blue Wrote:  Empty claims? I think not.

Sadly, history does repeat itself. We can look back at many laws which have been used over the years to disenfranchise minorities legally, socially and economically. We can look at well-worn phrases such as ‘silent majority’ & ‘family values’ & yes, to get to a place that I believe is driving some recent comments, ‘Make America Great.’ Or how about ‘fine people on both sides’ or ‘thugs.’ This 60+ YO white man knows wolf whistles and rationalization when he hears it.

What was this thread about again?

I'm not sure, but your entire rant is nothing more than your gut opinions. There is no substance or fact there. What you are doing is what you accuse others or doing... taking individuals, lumping them into made up groups, stereotyping, and acting on those stereotypes. That isn't going to work if America is going to have this conversation and work something out.

I’m not sure where you gain the idea of ‘rant,’ but so be it. I am not making ‘accusations’ so much as referring to historic facts. I might add a consistent pattern of deflection and denial from many whites when Blacks attempt to demonstrate peacefully. Heard of Colin Kapernick? Those of us who refuse to engage the problem, whether calling people out or at least using our votes, are a big part of this tragedy. That includes North as well as South.

You appear to be lumping everyone that cares about things such as family values into a single group and defining them as racist, make some broad comment about laws which have been used over the years to disenfranchise minorities legally, socially and economically without defining anything relevant right now and then you indirectly give a deranged synopsis of the president. It is unhelpful and will not bring anyone to the table nor solve anything nor acknowledge any legitimacy to any other opinions. My grandfather died in WWII and my father was wounded in Vietnam. Is it really that big of a stretch for you to see why Colin Kaepernick lost most people when he started that stuff?

Your family members’s service to our country is noted, appreciated and respected. It does NOT gain them my worship or blind obedience. They were fighting not for the flag, but for what the flag should represent....”liberty and justice for ALL’... When thinking of Kaepernick’s action, consider him to be making a PEACEFUL statement of disappointment that we are falling far short of our ideals.

On the quotes I shared, such as ‘family values,’ I refer to the fact thesE are used as code words by many white folks...not all...and not all evangelicals...But a large number of corrupt individuals and the politicians who use these words to be elected and pass laws such as those I referenced earlier, which disproportionally affect Blacks. These and other things I referenced earlier take away hope and opportunity and lead to more clashes with police.

As far as a ‘deranged synopsis of the president,’ shame on me for reporting his own words.

I’ll leave you the last word...

My underlying point is we can't have a serious conversation in this country or solve any problem under the precondition that if one any challenge or disagrees with amy conclusion, they are labeled racist. As you said, all this stuff has different meaning to different people. History isn't so black and white. Take the Confederate flag or Lee statue for example... and other than being an amateur geneologist, I have no skin in this (my ancestors were in Italy and Ireland at the time) The very neighborhoods I live in and grew up in were farms that were burned to the ground, daughters raped (I have newspaper articles), a lot of innocent people died at the hands of union soldiers. They burned the Warwick County Courthouse to the ground and almost all the history of Warwick/Newport News is gone/erased. There was a guy named Gawin Lane Corbin that owned about half the county and all that's left is a few l land discriptions that haven't yet been subdivided described as "Corbins" or "Laneville", which was his plantation, I assume (there was another Laneville owned by a Corbin in King & Queen County) and one of his ancestors married a Jane Lane. Can't find anything else on him or even where any of those people in that time were buried. Yes, slavery was an aberration that needed to be eliminated, but nobody was innocent aside from the slaves themselves.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

06 June 1944 the boys from Bedford Va arrived on Normandy beach. A small town of 3k 19 were killed on the beach another four died later. Who was thinking about this today? A great place and statue to visit when we go to Va Tech, well worth the 25 minute dive off the interstate.



quote='EverRespect' pid='16849954' dateline='1591383006']

(06-05-2020 09:57 AM)Big4Blue Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 03:41 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:37 PM)Big4Blue Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  I'm not sure, but your entire rant is nothing more than your gut opinions. There is no substance or fact there. What you are doing is what you accuse others or doing... taking individuals, lumping them into made up groups, stereotyping, and acting on those stereotypes. That isn't going to work if America is going to have this conversation and work something out.

I’m not sure where you gain the idea of ‘rant,’ but so be it. I am not making ‘accusations’ so much as referring to historic facts. I might add a consistent pattern of deflection and denial from many whites when Blacks attempt to demonstrate peacefully. Heard of Colin Kapernick? Those of us who refuse to engage the problem, whether calling people out or at least using our votes, are a big part of this tragedy. That includes North as well as South.

You appear to be lumping everyone that cares about things such as family values into a single group and defining them as racist, make some broad comment about laws which have been used over the years to disenfranchise minorities legally, socially and economically without defining anything relevant right now and then you indirectly give a deranged synopsis of the president. It is unhelpful and will not bring anyone to the table nor solve anything nor acknowledge any legitimacy to any other opinions. My grandfather died in WWII and my father was wounded in Vietnam. Is it really that big of a stretch for you to see why Colin Kaepernick lost most people when he started that stuff?

Your family members’s service to our country is noted, appreciated and respected. It does NOT gain them my worship or blind obedience. They were fighting not for the flag, but for what the flag should represent....”liberty and justice for ALL’... When thinking of Kaepernick’s action, consider him to be making a PEACEFUL statement of disappointment that we are falling far short of our ideals.

On the quotes I shared, such as ‘family values,’ I refer to the fact thesE are used as code words by many white folks...not all...and not all evangelicals...But a large number of corrupt individuals and the politicians who use these words to be elected and pass laws such as those I referenced earlier, which disproportionally affect Blacks. These and other things I referenced earlier take away hope and opportunity and lead to more clashes with police.

As far as a ‘deranged synopsis of the president,’ shame on me for reporting his own words.

I’ll leave you the last word...

My underlying point is we can't have a serious conversation in this country or solve any problem under the precondition that if one any challenge or disagrees with amy conclusion, they are labeled racist. As you said, all this stuff has different meaning to different people. History isn't so black and white. Take the Confederate flag or Lee statue for example... and other than being an amateur geneologist, I have no skin in this (my ancestors were in Italy and Ireland at the time) The very neighborhoods I live in and grew up in were farms that were burned to the ground, daughters raped (I have newspaper articles), a lot of innocent people died at the hands of union soldiers. They burned the Warwick County Courthouse to the ground and almost all the history of Warwick/Newport News is gone/erased. There was a guy named Gawin Lane Corbin that owned about half the county and all that's left is a few l land discriptions that haven't yet been subdivided described as "Corbins" or "Laneville", which was his plantation, I assume (there was another Laneville owned by a Corbin in King & Queen County) and one of his ancestors married a Jane Lane. Can't find anything else on him or even where any of those people in that time were buried. Yes, slavery was an aberration that needed to be eliminated, but nobody was innocent aside from the slaves themselves.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
[/quote]

(06-05-2020 01:11 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I just want to thank everyone on keeping this discussion cordial. I know it's a low bar to hurdle. But as one of the mods, I appreciate it. Keep it up, please.

Oh and until black lives matter, it's impossible for all to matter.

This post admirably encapsulates the tragic futility for reaching any kind of consensus on this issue.

On the one hand most of us (not all, but the vast majority of us) want to get along with one another and want a society that provides fair and equal opportunities to all of its citizens. Although I don't think it is fair to say that our nation has outright failed in this notion when it comes to our black population, we clearly can't claim to have succeeded.

On the other hand, for a discussion to have any meaning it needs to be open and honest. This thread is better than most. But when you qualify the discussion with "until black lives matter ...", you are forcing participants into a box that is fraught with loaded meanings.

Does this simply mean that the black community overall has not gotten a fair shake in this nation, and we all should recognize that? If that's all that is meant, then I am fully in agreement. Or, does it mean something more than that? Does it also necessitate endorsement of notions that we should defund police departments, kneel to the flag and pretend that violent riots are an acceptable form of protest? If the latter, then I have some problem with the condition you've placed on the discussion.

I don't mean this overly critically. This is one of the more responsible discussions that I've seen on this topic. But until the various sides (and there are multiple sides to this, not just two) impose some discipline on their own message, I fear that this issue is going to do more damage than good to our nation.

What do I mean by that? I know that I just said that there are more than two sides to the issue, but I will offer up two examples:

=> Trump supporters ought to be ashamed of themselves for their refusal to call out the rank stupidity of the comments of our president. I personally don't think that he is smart enough to have meant offense with his "very fine people" and "when the looting starts, the shooting starts" comments. Is there a plausibly defensible explanation for these comments? Perhaps, and I think that jaw-dropping ignorance and incoherence on the part of our president is the most appropriate conclusion. But pretty much any other explanation is completely dismissive of legitimate concerns of a large segment of our population.

=> The black lives matter movement should be just as ashamed of itself for allowing its message to be co-opted by political movements with mostly ill intent. Fairness for people of color does NOT necessitate endorsement of violent protests, compelled confessions on white privilege, acceptance of socialist policies, or the like. Yet those extraneous issues have very much become front and center of this movement. Denial that this is so is just as dismissive as the excuses being offered up by Trump apologists.

I wish I thought that this will get better. I don't. I fully expect it to get worse.

I pray for our country, and what will be left behind for our children and future generations.

Yourpost points out one of the major problems with having an online discussion. It is way to easy to type things that don't necessarily reflect the writers true intent/meaning and it's impossible to clarify in real time. Way to difficult to discern the meaning behind the words, to difficult to ask for clarification, to difficult to point out that another has reached a conclusion not implied etc etc. Having said that, we're doing exceptionally well here IMHO

The history we are taught about our country is all about struggle to free ourselves from tyranny and establish something better. The flag and the national anthem are SYMBOLS of those ideals. They are not the actual ideals themself. If a person has fought in war for the ideals these symbols reflect, they will be understandably upset if someone seems to disrespect the SYMBOLS. But kneeling never did represent disrespect for the symbols, but simply a statement, loud and clear, that for many americans those ideals have not been realized. It is not a repudiation of all the symbols stand for, but a plea to let everyone, regardless of color participate. I think too many see kneeling as a critism of the ideals, when in fact it is simply a statement of many people reality of unfulfilled hope. The people who kneel are not turning their backs on what america stands for, they are simply asking to be included.

(06-07-2020 10:35 AM)VB Monarch Wrote:  The history we are taught about our country is all about struggle to free ourselves from tyranny and establish something better. The flag and the national anthem are SYMBOLS of those ideals. They are not the actual ideals themself. If a person has fought in war for the ideals these symbols reflect, they will be understandably upset if someone seems to disrespect the SYMBOLS. But kneeling never did represent disrespect for the symbols, but simply a statement, loud and clear, that for many americans those ideals have not been realized. It is not a repudiation of all the symbols stand for, but a plea to let everyone, regardless of color participate. I think too many see kneeling as a critism of the ideals, when in fact it is simply a statement of many people reality of unfulfilled hope. The people who kneel are not turning their backs on what america stands for, they are simply asking to be included.

How is this differentiated from the argument that the Confederate battle flag only represents respect for history, and has nothing to do with defending slavery?

I, for one, strongly disagree with BOTH messages. They are inarticulate forms of communication at best, and downright offensive at worst.

(06-07-2020 11:08 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(06-07-2020 10:35 AM)VB Monarch Wrote:  The history we are taught about our country is all about struggle to free ourselves from tyranny and establish something better. The flag and the national anthem are SYMBOLS of those ideals. They are not the actual ideals themself. If a person has fought in war for the ideals these symbols reflect, they will be understandably upset if someone seems to disrespect the SYMBOLS. But kneeling never did represent disrespect for the symbols, but simply a statement, loud and clear, that for many americans those ideals have not been realized. It is not a repudiation of all the symbols stand for, but a plea to let everyone, regardless of color participate. I think too many see kneeling as a critism of the ideals, when in fact it is simply a statement of many people reality of unfulfilled hope. The people who kneel are not turning their backs on what america stands for, they are simply asking to be included.

How is this differentiated from the argument that the Confederate battle flag only represents respect for history, and has nothing to do with defending slavery?

I, for one, strongly disagree with BOTH messages. They are inarticulate forms of communication at best, and downright offensive at worst.

Because the Confederate Battle Flag is a demonstrated symbol of a group of states that wanted to create their own country explicitly becasue they supported the continuation of slavery. Yes it is history, but just like most our history it belongs in a museum not flying over state capitols or behind some bigots jacked up truck. Just to make sure, I am not calling anyone out in here just sharing how I feel.

(06-07-2020 07:36 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(06-05-2020 01:11 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I just want to thank everyone on keeping this discussion cordial. I know it's a low bar to hurdle. But as one of the mods, I appreciate it. Keep it up, please.

Oh and until black lives matter, it's impossible for all to matter.

This post admirably encapsulates the tragic futility for reaching any kind of consensus on this issue.

On the one hand most of us (not all, but the vast majority of us) want to get along with one another and want a society that provides fair and equal opportunities to all of its citizens. Although I don't think it is fair to say that our nation has outright failed in this notion when it comes to our black population, we clearly can't claim to have succeeded.

On the other hand, for a discussion to have any meaning it needs to be open and honest. This thread is better than most. But when you qualify the discussion with "until black lives matter ...", you are forcing participants into a box that is fraught with loaded meanings.

Does this simply mean that the black community overall has not gotten a fair shake in this nation, and we all should recognize that? If that's all that is meant, then I am fully in agreement. Or, does it mean something more than that? Does it also necessitate endorsement of notions that we should defund police departments, kneel to the flag and pretend that violent riots are an acceptable form of protest? If the latter, then I have some problem with the condition you've placed on the discussion.

Black lives matter means a lot of things to a lot of different people. But to me, there are two things it means.

1. We need to get to a point in society where it doesn't take a national outcry to get justice against police officers who abuse their powers. Had the union and DA done their damn jobs in swift order, none of this would be happening. And I don't think that will happen until my second point happens.

2. Revenue policing and military policing needs to stop. Police forces should be built to protect and serve the public that pays for it. Purchasing a tank should never be a consideration for a police force. Those purchases and this type of policing leads officers to treat the public as revenue streams and adversaries.

A pivot to community policing in more cities would be a great start. But more funding to mental health services is certainly necessary to make that successful.

Side note; We also shouldn't see a whole police unit quit after their co-workers are punished for brutalizing a senior citizen. What kind of example does that show? Because to me it shows that the thin blue line matters more than protecting and serving the public they were hired to protect and serve.

(06-09-2020 08:32 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(06-07-2020 07:36 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(06-05-2020 01:11 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I just want to thank everyone on keeping this discussion cordial. I know it's a low bar to hurdle. But as one of the mods, I appreciate it. Keep it up, please.

Oh and until black lives matter, it's impossible for all to matter.

This post admirably encapsulates the tragic futility for reaching any kind of consensus on this issue.

On the one hand most of us (not all, but the vast majority of us) want to get along with one another and want a society that provides fair and equal opportunities to all of its citizens. Although I don't think it is fair to say that our nation has outright failed in this notion when it comes to our black population, we clearly can't claim to have succeeded.

On the other hand, for a discussion to have any meaning it needs to be open and honest. This thread is better than most. But when you qualify the discussion with "until black lives matter ...", you are forcing participants into a box that is fraught with loaded meanings.

Does this simply mean that the black community overall has not gotten a fair shake in this nation, and we all should recognize that? If that's all that is meant, then I am fully in agreement. Or, does it mean something more than that? Does it also necessitate endorsement of notions that we should defund police departments, kneel to the flag and pretend that violent riots are an acceptable form of protest? If the latter, then I have some problem with the condition you've placed on the discussion.

Black lives matter means a lot of things to a lot of different people. But to me, there are three things it means.

1. We need to get to a point in society where it doesn't take a national outcry to get justice against police officers who abuse their powers. Had the union and DA done their damn jobs in swift order, none of this would be happening. And I don't think that will happen until my second point happens.

2. Revenue policing and military policing needs to stop. Police forces should be built to protect and serve the public that pays for it. Purchasing a tank should never be a consideration for a police force. Those purchases and this type of policing leads officers to treat the public as revenue streams and adversaries.

A pivot to community policing in more cities would be a great start. But more funding to mental health services is certainly necessary to make that successful.

Side note; We also shouldn't see a whole police unit quit after their co-workers are punished for brutalizing a senior citizen. What kind of example does that show? Because to me it shows that the thin blue line matters more than protecting and serving the public they were hired to protect and serve.

I haven't followed the Buffalo case that closely, but I don't think thats the entire story. (Im not saying I support shoving the old man at all)

The officers were all told to clear the square. Someone in power on video is clearly telling the officers to clear the way. Are the officers upset because they felt the 2 officers were punished for following orders?

The 57 officers also quit the emergency response team, not the police force. On top of that, they publically stated that they quit because the union said they aren't legally backing the officers any more.

(06-09-2020 08:40 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 08:32 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(06-07-2020 07:36 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(06-05-2020 01:11 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  I just want to thank everyone on keeping this discussion cordial. I know it's a low bar to hurdle. But as one of the mods, I appreciate it. Keep it up, please.

Oh and until black lives matter, it's impossible for all to matter.

This post admirably encapsulates the tragic futility for reaching any kind of consensus on this issue.

On the one hand most of us (not all, but the vast majority of us) want to get along with one another and want a society that provides fair and equal opportunities to all of its citizens. Although I don't think it is fair to say that our nation has outright failed in this notion when it comes to our black population, we clearly can't claim to have succeeded.

On the other hand, for a discussion to have any meaning it needs to be open and honest. This thread is better than most. But when you qualify the discussion with "until black lives matter ...", you are forcing participants into a box that is fraught with loaded meanings.

Does this simply mean that the black community overall has not gotten a fair shake in this nation, and we all should recognize that? If that's all that is meant, then I am fully in agreement. Or, does it mean something more than that? Does it also necessitate endorsement of notions that we should defund police departments, kneel to the flag and pretend that violent riots are an acceptable form of protest? If the latter, then I have some problem with the condition you've placed on the discussion.

Black lives matter means a lot of things to a lot of different people. But to me, there are three things it means.

1. We need to get to a point in society where it doesn't take a national outcry to get justice against police officers who abuse their powers. Had the union and DA done their damn jobs in swift order, none of this would be happening. And I don't think that will happen until my second point happens.

2. Revenue policing and military policing needs to stop. Police forces should be built to protect and serve the public that pays for it. Purchasing a tank should never be a consideration for a police force. Those purchases and this type of policing leads officers to treat the public as revenue streams and adversaries.

A pivot to community policing in more cities would be a great start. But more funding to mental health services is certainly necessary to make that successful.

Side note; We also shouldn't see a whole police unit quit after their co-workers are punished for brutalizing a senior citizen. What kind of example does that show? Because to me it shows that the thin blue line matters more than protecting and serving the public they were hired to protect and serve.

I haven't followed the Buffalo case that closely, but I don't think thats the entire story. (Im not saying I support shoving the old man at all)

The officers were all told to clear the square. Someone in power on video is clearly telling the officers to clear the way. Are the officers upset because they felt the 2 officers were punished for following orders?

The 57 officers also quit the emergency response team, not the police force. On top of that, they publically stated that they quit because the union said they aren't legally backing the officers any more.

Correct, they quit the unit. But why should the union back officers who fail to realize shoving a senior citizen out of the way at the top of concrete steps is a completely unnecessary and unsafe way to clear him from the area?

I believe those officers did not act with malice. But they did act with stupidity and without concern for a fellow human. We need officers that have the ability to assess the situation and realize that shoving him was obviously a bad idea before it happens.