WMU Broncos

Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
Author Message
Kellyhawkins Offline
Water Engineer
*

Posts: 6
Joined: Mar 2020
Reputation: 2
I Root For: Broncos
Location:
Post: #21
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-26-2020 09:15 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 07:49 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  [quote='ess' pid='16834048' dateline='1590528816']
In general, it's a REALLY bad idea for players and coaches to visit sports related message boards.

The same goes for their families.

Despite what the article in the Western Herald recently said, there's been plenty of turnover at all levels in college basketball this spring and early summer.

Jeff Van Gundy once said....."your decisions reveal your priorities".

Steve Hawkins decisions going forward will show the world whether he (really) wants to continue coaching college basketball.

And the decisions of those doing the hiring will let us know what others think of his worth as a coach in the current market.

#Fight On
[/quote

I would tend to agree with you which is why I NEVER got involved in message boards while my husband was coach. I do understand that not everyone is a fan, however, when there is a personal attack I have the right to defend my family if I chose to do so. I also care about Bronco basketball and have for years. I care about the players and the coaches that are there. Like you, I want success for the program. That now makes me an interested fan just like many others. I use my real name and identify myself. Agree or disagree. Respectfully, I don’t see how me getting on a sports message board for a team that I care about is any different than the current head coaches best friend doing the same. As for Steve’s future, you mentioned Van Gundy’s quote, which to me insinuates that his priority wasn’t “really” wanting to coach the team. Decisions reveal priorities. The top priority right now is family. We as a family will evaluate staying in Kalamazoo, which is my home, versus taking another coaching job in the future somewhere else.

You’re exhibiting rabbit ears here. Respectfully, your husband had two NCAA appearances in 17 years as head coach. I think the WMU fan base has been very patient with him, and has not attacked him with anywhere near the vitriol you would see from other fan bases (e.g., EMU with Rob Murphy). And much of that probably has to do with him being a good guy and making a positive impact on many.

But he was 20 games under .500 in his last six years on the job (18 games under in the MAC), so you aren’t going to see anyone here lamenting his loss of a position that most in his profession never have a chance to attain. The results suggest he’s better off at a place like Quincy. It’s not fair to expect a glowing review of his tenure on this site, at least not now.

I don’t disagree with you. It was time for a change on both ends. I wasn’t looking for a glowing review of him, I just felt he didn’t deserve to be name called because of the time he spent at WMU. I also agree with you that the last several years were definitely a struggle for many reasons. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he isn’t a D1 caliber coach as you suggest. He had some success at the D1 level. Of course this is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. Due to the time that Steve spent there he was eligible to retire from WMU and Kalamazoo is my hometown. My sister works in the president’s office and has worked at WMU for 34 years and my brother works for the college of aviation so WMU will always be near and dear to us.
05-27-2020 02:52 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Broncos83 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,168
Joined: Nov 2007
Reputation: 16
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #22
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
Hawk had some excellent success at WMU over the years. His championships years were huge successes! Like the vast majority of coaches...some ups and downs through the years. He (and his family) should be proud! A 17 year run (or whatever) is extremely rare in this day and age. I appreciate his efforts and contributions over the years. That being said...no issue with the recent change. Like Chuck Daly used to say...”sometimes they just stop listening and they need to hear a new voice” (or something along those lines).
05-27-2020 03:42 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
floridabronco Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,630
Joined: Jan 2007
Reputation: 20
I Root For: WMU #1
Location: Inverness, FL
Post: #23
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
My favorite Daly quote, but not applicable here.


"It's discouraging to make a mistake, but it's humiliating when you find out you're so unimportant that nobody noticed it."
05-27-2020 04:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ru4wmu Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 429
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation: 7
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #24
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
Kelly, you and Steve should be very proud. Hawk is a very good man, good coach, and accomplished a lot at WMU. I hope it will always be his school and that you and your family will stay part of BroncoNation. You are always welcome!
Best wishes and blessings to you.
05-27-2020 04:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
GRBRONCO Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,881
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 30
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #25
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
17 years, 2 blow out losses in the tourney and record slightly above .500. He did just enough to keep his job, not good enough to get poached. Pretty much right in that mediocre zone that WMU admins are comfortable with. Lester fits this mold also.
05-27-2020 04:43 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Bronco'14 Offline
WMU
*

Posts: 12,336
Joined: Aug 2012
Reputation: 201
I Root For: WMU Broncos
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Post: #26
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-27-2020 02:52 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:   My sister works in the president’s office and has worked at WMU for 34 years and my brother works for the college of aviation so WMU will always be near and dear to us.

That's all I need to hear, I think that's what all of us on here want to hear. I just hope Steve feels the same way.
05-27-2020 05:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
holybovine Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,111
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 55
I Root For: Eastern Michigan
Location:
Post: #27
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-27-2020 02:52 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 09:15 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 07:49 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  [quote='ess' pid='16834048' dateline='1590528816']
In general, it's a REALLY bad idea for players and coaches to visit sports related message boards.

The same goes for their families.

Despite what the article in the Western Herald recently said, there's been plenty of turnover at all levels in college basketball this spring and early summer.

Jeff Van Gundy once said....."your decisions reveal your priorities".

Steve Hawkins decisions going forward will show the world whether he (really) wants to continue coaching college basketball.

And the decisions of those doing the hiring will let us know what others think of his worth as a coach in the current market.

#Fight On
[/quote

I would tend to agree with you which is why I NEVER got involved in message boards while my husband was coach. I do understand that not everyone is a fan, however, when there is a personal attack I have the right to defend my family if I chose to do so. I also care about Bronco basketball and have for years. I care about the players and the coaches that are there. Like you, I want success for the program. That now makes me an interested fan just like many others. I use my real name and identify myself. Agree or disagree. Respectfully, I don’t see how me getting on a sports message board for a team that I care about is any different than the current head coaches best friend doing the same. As for Steve’s future, you mentioned Van Gundy’s quote, which to me insinuates that his priority wasn’t “really” wanting to coach the team. Decisions reveal priorities. The top priority right now is family. We as a family will evaluate staying in Kalamazoo, which is my home, versus taking another coaching job in the future somewhere else.

You’re exhibiting rabbit ears here. Respectfully, your husband had two NCAA appearances in 17 years as head coach. I think the WMU fan base has been very patient with him, and has not attacked him with anywhere near the vitriol you would see from other fan bases (e.g., EMU with Rob Murphy). And much of that probably has to do with him being a good guy and making a positive impact on many.

But he was 20 games under .500 in his last six years on the job (18 games under in the MAC), so you aren’t going to see anyone here lamenting his loss of a position that most in his profession never have a chance to attain. The results suggest he’s better off at a place like Quincy. It’s not fair to expect a glowing review of his tenure on this site, at least not now.

I don’t disagree with you. It was time for a change on both ends. I wasn’t looking for a glowing review of him, I just felt he didn’t deserve to be name called because of the time he spent at WMU. I also agree with you that the last several years were definitely a struggle for many reasons. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he isn’t a D1 caliber coach as you suggest. He had some success at the D1 level. Of course this is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. Due to the time that Steve spent there he was eligible to retire from WMU and Kalamazoo is my hometown. My sister works in the president’s office and has worked at WMU for 34 years and my brother works for the college of aviation so WMU will always be near and dear to us.

Given your family’s deep ties to WMU, I offer my deepest condolences. Being separated from a place you all care so much about must be like being estranged from your alma mater. I cant say I know what that feels like, but I’m sure it’s a painful process.

SH’s overall tenure is something to be proud of IMO. How many D1 coaches are able to be at the same program for 17 years? That’s an extremely short list I’d imagine.

Also, let’s look at the (formerly known as the) MAC West coaches from last year:

James Whitford
Mark Montgomery
Tod Kowalczyk
Keno Davis
Steve Hawkins
Rob Murphy

SH is clearly the best coach on that list. The only one that is in the same zip code is Kowalczyk (just my opinion; Keno has his fans too). Anyway, it’s odd that the best coach of that group is the one who lost his job, and that his former school almost certainly replaced him with someone worse.

Things to consider.
05-27-2020 09:37 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Cucumber Salad Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,036
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 7
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #28
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
Holy bovine!

You had me there until the very end. I don’t know how you can determine that WMU most certainly hired somebody worse? What evidence do you have of that? Or did I wholly miss your point?

As it pertains to the other Mac west coaches I’m not clear as to who has recently signed Extensions that would leave the school on the hook but I would argue all of those names you’ve listed have a short lifeline to be extended again. First, they didn’t win anything. Second that last contract they signed was before the poop hit the fan financially.

TK is going to take a big pay cut. Same with Whitford. Since neither have won anything a school will decide let’s go hire somebody worse than this expensive predecessor. Or not.

The key to winning particularly at this level is recruiting talent. The reason Western declined the last five years was that they had a significant drop off an overall talent depth. When an injury so negatively impacts a team it’s evident you don’t have the necessary talent. And it does not hinge on a practice facility. Recruiting has to be your highest priority as it pertains to the lifeblood of the program. Pyramid of success is foundational. No question about it. But if you don’t have the athletic talent to win games decisively you’re always going to be a possession or two away from a L. That puts you near playing around 500. That is not sustainable for a career.
05-27-2020 10:14 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
DrDavis Offline
2nd String
*

Posts: 443
Joined: Jan 2011
Reputation: 12
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #29
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
Quote:Posted by Cucumber Salad - Yesterday 10:14 PM

...The key to winning particularly at this level is recruiting talent. The reason Western declined the last five years was that they had a significant drop off an overall talent depth. When an injury so negatively impacts a team it’s evident you don’t have the necessary talent. And it does not hinge on a practice facility. Recruiting has to be your highest priority as it pertains to the lifeblood of the program. Pyramid of success is foundational. No question about it. But if you don’t have the athletic talent to win games decisively you’re always going to be a possession or two away from a L. That puts you near playing around 500. That is not sustainable for a career.

At the mid-major level, I would add that keeping the talent you bring in and develop for the full 4/5 years is as important if not more so than recruiting.

Imagine what this program would have achieved had it kept just 75% of the top end talent that left over the last 15 years.
05-28-2020 12:29 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Flashboski Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,566
Joined: Feb 2003
Reputation: 20
I Root For: WMU
Location: Kalamazoo
Post: #30
Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-28-2020 12:29 PM)DrDavis Wrote:  
Quote:Posted by Cucumber Salad - Yesterday 10:14 PM

...The key to winning particularly at this level is recruiting talent. The reason Western declined the last five years was that they had a significant drop off an overall talent depth. When an injury so negatively impacts a team it’s evident you don’t have the necessary talent. And it does not hinge on a practice facility. Recruiting has to be your highest priority as it pertains to the lifeblood of the program. Pyramid of success is foundational. No question about it. But if you don’t have the athletic talent to win games decisively you’re always going to be a possession or two away from a L. That puts you near playing around 500. That is not sustainable for a career.

At the mid-major level, I would add that keeping the talent you bring in and develop for the full 4/5 years is as important if not more so than recruiting.

Imagine what this program would have achieved had it kept just 75% of the top end talent that left over the last 15 years.


The landscape of college basketball changed unfortunately and keeping players is more difficult now at all levels. So you need to adapt as a program and also go after transfers.

The fact that WMU just signed its first D1 transfer in like 15 years speaks volumes for not adapting unfortunately. Other MAC schools are bringing them in left and right.

“Adapt or Die”
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2020 02:08 PM by Flashboski.)
05-28-2020 02:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
wmubroncopilot Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,026
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 132
I Root For: WMU
Location: Anchorage, AK
Post: #31
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-27-2020 09:37 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-27-2020 02:52 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 09:15 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 07:49 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  [quote='ess' pid='16834048' dateline='1590528816']
In general, it's a REALLY bad idea for players and coaches to visit sports related message boards.

The same goes for their families.

Despite what the article in the Western Herald recently said, there's been plenty of turnover at all levels in college basketball this spring and early summer.

Jeff Van Gundy once said....."your decisions reveal your priorities".

Steve Hawkins decisions going forward will show the world whether he (really) wants to continue coaching college basketball.

And the decisions of those doing the hiring will let us know what others think of his worth as a coach in the current market.

#Fight On
[/quote

I would tend to agree with you which is why I NEVER got involved in message boards while my husband was coach. I do understand that not everyone is a fan, however, when there is a personal attack I have the right to defend my family if I chose to do so. I also care about Bronco basketball and have for years. I care about the players and the coaches that are there. Like you, I want success for the program. That now makes me an interested fan just like many others. I use my real name and identify myself. Agree or disagree. Respectfully, I don’t see how me getting on a sports message board for a team that I care about is any different than the current head coaches best friend doing the same. As for Steve’s future, you mentioned Van Gundy’s quote, which to me insinuates that his priority wasn’t “really” wanting to coach the team. Decisions reveal priorities. The top priority right now is family. We as a family will evaluate staying in Kalamazoo, which is my home, versus taking another coaching job in the future somewhere else.

You’re exhibiting rabbit ears here. Respectfully, your husband had two NCAA appearances in 17 years as head coach. I think the WMU fan base has been very patient with him, and has not attacked him with anywhere near the vitriol you would see from other fan bases (e.g., EMU with Rob Murphy). And much of that probably has to do with him being a good guy and making a positive impact on many.

But he was 20 games under .500 in his last six years on the job (18 games under in the MAC), so you aren’t going to see anyone here lamenting his loss of a position that most in his profession never have a chance to attain. The results suggest he’s better off at a place like Quincy. It’s not fair to expect a glowing review of his tenure on this site, at least not now.

I don’t disagree with you. It was time for a change on both ends. I wasn’t looking for a glowing review of him, I just felt he didn’t deserve to be name called because of the time he spent at WMU. I also agree with you that the last several years were definitely a struggle for many reasons. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he isn’t a D1 caliber coach as you suggest. He had some success at the D1 level. Of course this is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. Due to the time that Steve spent there he was eligible to retire from WMU and Kalamazoo is my hometown. My sister works in the president’s office and has worked at WMU for 34 years and my brother works for the college of aviation so WMU will always be near and dear to us.

Given your family’s deep ties to WMU, I offer my deepest condolences. Being separated from a place you all care so much about must be like being estranged from your alma mater. I cant say I know what that feels like, but I’m sure it’s a painful process.

SH’s overall tenure is something to be proud of IMO. How many D1 coaches are able to be at the same program for 17 years? That’s an extremely short list I’d imagine.

Also, let’s look at the (formerly known as the) MAC West coaches from last year:

James Whitford
Mark Montgomery
Tod Kowalczyk
Keno Davis
Steve Hawkins
Rob Murphy

SH is clearly the best coach on that list. The only one that is in the same zip code is Kowalczyk (just my opinion; Keno has his fans too). Anyway, it’s odd that the best coach of that group is the one who lost his job, and that his former school almost certainly replaced him with someone worse.

Things to consider.

Is he "clearly" the best on that list? For career accomplishments, maybe.. but it's difficult to say he is currently the best of that list given WMU's recent results. Unless you subscribe to the idea that WMU is a uniquely challenging MAC West job.
05-28-2020 03:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Bronco'14 Offline
WMU
*

Posts: 12,336
Joined: Aug 2012
Reputation: 201
I Root For: WMU Broncos
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Post: #32
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-28-2020 02:07 PM)Flashboski Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:29 PM)DrDavis Wrote:  
Quote:Posted by Cucumber Salad - Yesterday 10:14 PM

...The key to winning particularly at this level is recruiting talent. The reason Western declined the last five years was that they had a significant drop off an overall talent depth. When an injury so negatively impacts a team it’s evident you don’t have the necessary talent. And it does not hinge on a practice facility. Recruiting has to be your highest priority as it pertains to the lifeblood of the program. Pyramid of success is foundational. No question about it. But if you don’t have the athletic talent to win games decisively you’re always going to be a possession or two away from a L. That puts you near playing around 500. That is not sustainable for a career.

At the mid-major level, I would add that keeping the talent you bring in and develop for the full 4/5 years is as important if not more so than recruiting.

Imagine what this program would have achieved had it kept just 75% of the top end talent that left over the last 15 years.


The landscape of college basketball changed unfortunately and keeping players is more difficult now at all levels. So you need to adapt as a program and also go after transfers.

The fact that WMU just signed its first D1 transfer in like 15 years speaks volumes for not adapting unfortunately. Other MAC schools are bringing them in left and right.

“Adapt or Die”

yep. that was Hawk's biggest failure while he was here. Maybe if he had been more aggressive getting those Xfer's, he might've been able to keep his job.
05-28-2020 05:47 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
okgc Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,472
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 38
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #33
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
Not important fact to the casual WMU fan is that in Steve Hawkins years at WMU he had more MAC All Academic players than any other coach.
05-28-2020 06:14 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
holybovine Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,111
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 55
I Root For: Eastern Michigan
Location:
Post: #34
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-28-2020 03:22 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(05-27-2020 09:37 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-27-2020 02:52 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 09:15 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-26-2020 07:49 PM)Kellyhawkins Wrote:  [quote='ess' pid='16834048' dateline='1590528816']
In general, it's a REALLY bad idea for players and coaches to visit sports related message boards.

The same goes for their families.

Despite what the article in the Western Herald recently said, there's been plenty of turnover at all levels in college basketball this spring and early summer.

Jeff Van Gundy once said....."your decisions reveal your priorities".

Steve Hawkins decisions going forward will show the world whether he (really) wants to continue coaching college basketball.

And the decisions of those doing the hiring will let us know what others think of his worth as a coach in the current market.

#Fight On
[/quote

I would tend to agree with you which is why I NEVER got involved in message boards while my husband was coach. I do understand that not everyone is a fan, however, when there is a personal attack I have the right to defend my family if I chose to do so. I also care about Bronco basketball and have for years. I care about the players and the coaches that are there. Like you, I want success for the program. That now makes me an interested fan just like many others. I use my real name and identify myself. Agree or disagree. Respectfully, I don’t see how me getting on a sports message board for a team that I care about is any different than the current head coaches best friend doing the same. As for Steve’s future, you mentioned Van Gundy’s quote, which to me insinuates that his priority wasn’t “really” wanting to coach the team. Decisions reveal priorities. The top priority right now is family. We as a family will evaluate staying in Kalamazoo, which is my home, versus taking another coaching job in the future somewhere else.

You’re exhibiting rabbit ears here. Respectfully, your husband had two NCAA appearances in 17 years as head coach. I think the WMU fan base has been very patient with him, and has not attacked him with anywhere near the vitriol you would see from other fan bases (e.g., EMU with Rob Murphy). And much of that probably has to do with him being a good guy and making a positive impact on many.

But he was 20 games under .500 in his last six years on the job (18 games under in the MAC), so you aren’t going to see anyone here lamenting his loss of a position that most in his profession never have a chance to attain. The results suggest he’s better off at a place like Quincy. It’s not fair to expect a glowing review of his tenure on this site, at least not now.

I don’t disagree with you. It was time for a change on both ends. I wasn’t looking for a glowing review of him, I just felt he didn’t deserve to be name called because of the time he spent at WMU. I also agree with you that the last several years were definitely a struggle for many reasons. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he isn’t a D1 caliber coach as you suggest. He had some success at the D1 level. Of course this is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. Due to the time that Steve spent there he was eligible to retire from WMU and Kalamazoo is my hometown. My sister works in the president’s office and has worked at WMU for 34 years and my brother works for the college of aviation so WMU will always be near and dear to us.

Given your family’s deep ties to WMU, I offer my deepest condolences. Being separated from a place you all care so much about must be like being estranged from your alma mater. I cant say I know what that feels like, but I’m sure it’s a painful process.

SH’s overall tenure is something to be proud of IMO. How many D1 coaches are able to be at the same program for 17 years? That’s an extremely short list I’d imagine.

Also, let’s look at the (formerly known as the) MAC West coaches from last year:

James Whitford
Mark Montgomery
Tod Kowalczyk
Keno Davis
Steve Hawkins
Rob Murphy

SH is clearly the best coach on that list. The only one that is in the same zip code is Kowalczyk (just my opinion; Keno has his fans too). Anyway, it’s odd that the best coach of that group is the one who lost his job, and that his former school almost certainly replaced him with someone worse.

Things to consider.

Is he "clearly" the best on that list? For career accomplishments, maybe.. but it's difficult to say he is currently the best of that list given WMU's recent results. Unless you subscribe to the idea that WMU is a uniquely challenging MAC West job.

Well, I would say that the others are clearly subpar. They’ve never experienced any real success, and they’ve all been around a good while. At least Hawkins succeeded at some point.
05-28-2020 06:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
holybovine Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,111
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 55
I Root For: Eastern Michigan
Location:
Post: #35
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-27-2020 10:14 PM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  Holy bovine!

You had me there until the very end. I don’t know how you can determine that WMU most certainly hired somebody worse? What evidence do you have of that? Or did I wholly miss your point?

As it pertains to the other Mac west coaches I’m not clear as to who has recently signed Extensions that would leave the school on the hook but I would argue all of those names you’ve listed have a short lifeline to be extended again. First, they didn’t win anything. Second that last contract they signed was before the poop hit the fan financially.

TK is going to take a big pay cut. Same with Whitford. Since neither have won anything a school will decide let’s go hire somebody worse than this expensive predecessor. Or not.

The key to winning particularly at this level is recruiting talent. The reason Western declined the last five years was that they had a significant drop off an overall talent depth. When an injury so negatively impacts a team it’s evident you don’t have the necessary talent. And it does not hinge on a practice facility. Recruiting has to be your highest priority as it pertains to the lifeblood of the program. Pyramid of success is foundational. No question about it. But if you don’t have the athletic talent to win games decisively you’re always going to be a possession or two away from a L. That puts you near playing around 500. That is not sustainable for a career.

On Bates: As a leader, I don’t know how you can determine that a head coach’s program is substandard, and then hire one of his assistants. And don’t give me the hiring freeze or budget stuff. There are AWESOME juco coaches all over the country who would have given their left nut for a chance to lead Western, and they wouldn’t have costed a thing. Awful process, awful hire. One of the laziest things I’ve ever seen.

Most of the institutions in the “MAC West” are broke and can’t afford to buy out a fired coach. I know that explains most of the coaches on the list. Maybe the budget crisis will save many of them? Who is to say? Keno will be around a long time. And Rob Murphy is a goner unless they go to the NCAAs or NIT. I don’t know enough about the others to say anything.

As someone who went to college in the mid/late 90s, it pains me to see the erosion of a one dynamic basketball conference. And much of that decline has centered around substandard recruiting and coaching.
05-28-2020 07:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Cucumber Salad Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,036
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 7
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #36
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
I hear and understand the frustration. It was a odd set of circumstances, for sure. But I don’t see you answering the question of how you know Bates is “worse”.

You can presuppose based on Hawk’s Leadership any subordinate must be > than. I don’t buy that premise in general nor specifically here.

I don’t buy the less than clear definition that the program was substandard. Not sure what your basing substandard on. W-L is a metric but not the only viable one.

I would define a program as an organization that has many facets both on and off the court. There’s a foundation it’s built on. The Pyramid of Success is appropriate here. But one significant facet that will continue to be shown as different is in recruiting. This years class is an indication. Longer, more athletic, higher BB skills with a continuation of high character. Last years class fits that bill too. I believe Bate’s fingerprints were all over both Barr’s and Wright.

How that talent is employed on both ends is yet to be seen. A valid question. But I think you race your car as it is built and I’m sensing a different gear hear.

Time will tell.
05-28-2020 07:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
holybovine Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,111
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 55
I Root For: Eastern Michigan
Location:
Post: #37
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-28-2020 07:34 PM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  I hear and understand the frustration. It was a odd set of circumstances, for sure. But I don’t see you answering the question of how you know Bates is “worse”.

You can presuppose based on Hawk’s Leadership any subordinate must be > than. I don’t buy that premise in general nor specifically here.

I don’t buy the less than clear definition that the program was substandard. Not sure what your basing substandard on. W-L is a metric but not the only viable one.

I would define a program as an organization that has many facets both on and off the court. There’s a foundation it’s built on. The Pyramid of Success is appropriate here. But one significant facet that will continue to be shown as different is in recruiting. This years class is an indication. Longer, more athletic, higher BB skills with a continuation of high character. Last years class fits that bill too. I believe Bate’s fingerprints were all over both Barr’s and Wright.

How that talent is employed on both ends is yet to be seen. A valid question. But I think you race your car as it is built and I’m sensing a different gear hear.

Time will tell.

I would presuppose that he is likely worse given his standing as a career assistant from a failed regime who has never been a HC at any level. I’m not the one saying that Hawk’s program was substandard; your AD made that determination when she fired him.

Could the Bates hire work? Of course. Almost anything can work. But I don’t see any compelling reason to predict success. But as you said, we’ll see in a few years. He has filled out the roster well since taking over — I’ll give him that much.
05-28-2020 07:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dirty Ernie Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,955
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 81
I Root For: WMU
Location: Paw Paw
Post: #38
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
I’m noting we only appear to have 2 coaches for basketball.

That is a reduction, right? So coaching time spread thinner as well.

Steve was allowed to finance some powerhouse assistants along the way.

Looks like those days are over for now.
05-29-2020 05:11 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Cucumber Salad Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,036
Joined: Aug 2014
Reputation: 7
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #39
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-28-2020 07:55 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 07:34 PM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  I hear and understand the frustration. It was a odd set of circumstances, for sure. But I don’t see you answering the question of how you know Bates is “worse”.

You can presuppose based on Hawk’s Leadership any subordinate must be > than. I don’t buy that premise in general nor specifically here.

I don’t buy the less than clear definition that the program was substandard. Not sure what your basing substandard on. W-L is a metric but not the only viable one.

I would define a program as an organization that has many facets both on and off the court. There’s a foundation it’s built on. The Pyramid of Success is appropriate here. But one significant facet that will continue to be shown as different is in recruiting. This years class is an indication. Longer, more athletic, higher BB skills with a continuation of high character. Last years class fits that bill too. I believe Bate’s fingerprints were all over both Barr’s and Wright.

How that talent is employed on both ends is yet to be seen. A valid question. But I think you race your car as it is built and I’m sensing a different gear hear.

Time will tell.

I would presuppose that he is likely worse given his standing as a career assistant from a failed regime who has never been a HC at any level. I’m not the one saying that Hawk’s program was substandard; your AD made that determination when she fired him.

Could the Bates hire work? Of course. Almost anything can work. But I don’t see any compelling reason to predict success. But as you said, we’ll see in a few years. He has filled out the roster well since taking over — I’ll give him that much.

Again what’s substandard? AD or not I would disagree. The “program” is graduating kids. Even recently the collective GPA is Outstanding by any metric. The kids rep the U well and with class. They played hard and competed. Nothing substandard from my viewpoint.

What’s been substandard has been the ability to recruit top-notch talent 8-9 deep minimally. Without the depth an injury or two in the top six players makes a significant difference. All teams face that challenge. The ones that are successful either have deeper and better talent and or are better utilized on the floor.

My opinion is that was Steve Hawkins downfall. His inability maybe lack of a priority to recruit a wider deeper scope of talent. That translated in wins and losses. That was extended over a 5 year stretch as the program continued to succeed in other areas. With the extended wins and losses string, the approach to recruiting and with an expiring contract necessitated and allowed for the change at the head. Done!

And as you agree with me Bate’s has brought in an impressive class this year along with being the driver and two of the three from last year.

In a short time the trend is up. Small sample. But a sample nonetheless.
05-29-2020 07:58 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
okgc Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 7,472
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 38
I Root For: WMU
Location:
Post: #40
RE: Hawk on Gottlieb’s Podcast
(05-29-2020 05:11 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  I’m noting we only appear to have 2 coaches for basketball.

That is a reduction, right? So coaching time spread thinner as well.

Steve was allowed to finance some powerhouse assistants along the way.

Looks like those days are over for now.

The HUGE cut in money from NCAA without March madness has hurt EVERY University.

Next years Athletics budget is still being worked on with goal of cutting $6 million and
WMU still has complete hiring freeze from outside.
05-29-2020 08:15 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.