(04-29-2020 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

No... I understand that and I agree with you that the teams need to assess talent and well as baggage. Certainly a better player with a ton of baggage (Antonio Brown?) may be a worse choice for a roster than a lesser player without said baggage.

However, over the course of this discussion the other guys argued that he was not good enough to play and/or that simply his talents were not a good fit for any team schematically regardless of the politics and controversy. NFL players disagree with their opinion.

I am not a football junkie. I enjoy watching and rooting for my teams(Rice and Dallas), and I like talking as a fan on the conference board. But the technicalities are far beyond me. All I can say is I did read an article somewhere that said one of Kaep's deficiencies is a relative slowness in decision making. In the article, it said that was not a problem when he had a top notch O-line to operate behind, but as the quality of the O-line fell, (and time to make a decision fell) it became more of a problem. I think the question to ask the players, if they are the ones you think have the answers, are do they wish management would release their current back up QB and replace him with Kaep. I think we would have a lot less players choose that option.

I remember Kaep in college at Nevada, and I was a big fan of him then. But every year I see that QB A is taken in the draft before QB B, and Team C takes neither because they signed free agent D. There is a debate on our conference board right now about Mason Fine, the North Texas QB. ranking and judging players is both an art and a science, and that is just on their physical ability.

The guys who make the evaluations have chosen to pass on Kaep, and judging from Kaep's actions, that is fine with him.

I enjoy watching football but I would by no means consider myself an expert when it comes to personnel.

The guys who were making the evaluations assessed his talent and fit and then took the baggage and possible pressure from ownership into account and passed. I agree that Kaepernick is probably fine with how this all played out. He'll probably make more from Nike over the next decade then he would have from football.

(04-29-2020 02:05 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

No... I understand that and I agree with you that the teams need to assess talent and well as baggage. Certainly a better player with a ton of baggage (Antonio Brown?) may be a worse choice for a roster than a lesser player without said baggage.

However, over the course of this discussion the other guys argued that he was not good enough to play and/or that simply his talents were not a good fit for any team schematically regardless of the politics and controversy. NFL players disagree with their opinion.

I am not a football junkie. I enjoy watching and rooting for my teams(Rice and Dallas), and I like talking as a fan on the conference board. But the technicalities are far beyond me. All I can say is I did read an article somewhere that said one of Kaep's deficiencies is a relative slowness in decision making. In the article, it said that was not a problem when he had a top notch O-line to operate behind, but as the quality of the O-line fell, (and time to make a decision fell) it became more of a problem. I think the question to ask the players, if they are the ones you think have the answers, are do they wish management would release their current back up QB and replace him with Kaep. I think we would have a lot less players choose that option.

I remember Kaep in college at Nevada, and I was a big fan of him then. But every year I see that QB A is taken in the draft before QB B, and Team C takes neither because they signed free agent D. There is a debate on our conference board right now about Mason Fine, the North Texas QB. ranking and judging players is both an art and a science, and that is just on their physical ability.

The guys who make the evaluations have chosen to pass on Kaep, and judging from Kaep's actions, that is fine with him.

I enjoy watching football but I would by no means consider myself an expert when it comes to personnel.

The guys who were making the evaluations assessed his talent and fit and then took the baggage and possible pressure from ownership into account and passed. I agree that Kaepernick is probably fine with how this all played out. He'll probably make more from Nike over the next decade then he would have from football.

Just two non experts debating. The essence of sports.

(04-29-2020 02:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 02:05 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

No... I understand that and I agree with you that the teams need to assess talent and well as baggage. Certainly a better player with a ton of baggage (Antonio Brown?) may be a worse choice for a roster than a lesser player without said baggage.

However, over the course of this discussion the other guys argued that he was not good enough to play and/or that simply his talents were not a good fit for any team schematically regardless of the politics and controversy. NFL players disagree with their opinion.

I am not a football junkie. I enjoy watching and rooting for my teams(Rice and Dallas), and I like talking as a fan on the conference board. But the technicalities are far beyond me. All I can say is I did read an article somewhere that said one of Kaep's deficiencies is a relative slowness in decision making. In the article, it said that was not a problem when he had a top notch O-line to operate behind, but as the quality of the O-line fell, (and time to make a decision fell) it became more of a problem. I think the question to ask the players, if they are the ones you think have the answers, are do they wish management would release their current back up QB and replace him with Kaep. I think we would have a lot less players choose that option.

I remember Kaep in college at Nevada, and I was a big fan of him then. But every year I see that QB A is taken in the draft before QB B, and Team C takes neither because they signed free agent D. There is a debate on our conference board right now about Mason Fine, the North Texas QB. ranking and judging players is both an art and a science, and that is just on their physical ability.

The guys who make the evaluations have chosen to pass on Kaep, and judging from Kaep's actions, that is fine with him.

I enjoy watching football but I would by no means consider myself an expert when it comes to personnel.

The guys who were making the evaluations assessed his talent and fit and then took the baggage and possible pressure from ownership into account and passed. I agree that Kaepernick is probably fine with how this all played out. He'll probably make more from Nike over the next decade then he would have from football.

Just two non experts debating. The essence of sports.

More like two non-experts agreeing with each other. Not sure if that's any more worthwhile?

(04-29-2020 02:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 02:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 02:05 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  No... I understand that and I agree with you that the teams need to assess talent and well as baggage. Certainly a better player with a ton of baggage (Antonio Brown?) may be a worse choice for a roster than a lesser player without said baggage.

However, over the course of this discussion the other guys argued that he was not good enough to play and/or that simply his talents were not a good fit for any team schematically regardless of the politics and controversy. NFL players disagree with their opinion.

I am not a football junkie. I enjoy watching and rooting for my teams(Rice and Dallas), and I like talking as a fan on the conference board. But the technicalities are far beyond me. All I can say is I did read an article somewhere that said one of Kaep's deficiencies is a relative slowness in decision making. In the article, it said that was not a problem when he had a top notch O-line to operate behind, but as the quality of the O-line fell, (and time to make a decision fell) it became more of a problem. I think the question to ask the players, if they are the ones you think have the answers, are do they wish management would release their current back up QB and replace him with Kaep. I think we would have a lot less players choose that option.

I remember Kaep in college at Nevada, and I was a big fan of him then. But every year I see that QB A is taken in the draft before QB B, and Team C takes neither because they signed free agent D. There is a debate on our conference board right now about Mason Fine, the North Texas QB. ranking and judging players is both an art and a science, and that is just on their physical ability.

The guys who make the evaluations have chosen to pass on Kaep, and judging from Kaep's actions, that is fine with him.

I enjoy watching football but I would by no means consider myself an expert when it comes to personnel.

The guys who were making the evaluations assessed his talent and fit and then took the baggage and possible pressure from ownership into account and passed. I agree that Kaepernick is probably fine with how this all played out. He'll probably make more from Nike over the next decade then he would have from football.

Just two non experts debating. The essence of sports.

More like two non-experts agreeing with each other. Not sure if that's any more worthwhile?

Well, we did reach some general agreement, but only through debate. In the circles through which I normally move(gamblers), there are a lot of "experts" (self-appointed) who will debate on personnel moves, fantasy drafts etc. I just keep quiet. I was glad to see Dallas take Dak Prescott after having seen him at the Liberty Bowl.

(04-29-2020 01:09 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

Bingo.

Those trying to suggest Kaep isn't talented enough to be on a roster need to get their heads checked. He is certainly better than a number of QBs who currently fill a bench spot.

I might agree with you ---- two years ago. Three years with no snaps, no play --- probably not.

Quote:But it's a bit loony, IMO, to think that his talent is below that of every QB on a roster, and that his talent is what is holding him back.

Again, I think it might be loony to take a 3 year breather and still say that at the present time with a straight face.

Again, he has been offered -- he has turned those offers down. You act like they are not offering -- they have.

It really isnt that he is 'being held back' -- no more than he himself has held himself back in some regards.

Leo Durocher once said that on any baseball team, there are 8 guys that love you, 8 guys that hate you, and 8 guys that haven't made up their mind, and the secret to managing is to keep the 8 guys that hate you away from the 8 guys that haven't made up their mind. Football is a somewhat different dynamic. but Kaepernick would be one guy that a coach would feel he needs to keep away from the guys who haven't made up their minds, and that's hard to do with a QB.