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Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 10:27 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 01:00 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:01 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  CAA Rankings, by USNWR:

40 - W&M
40 - Northeastern
84 - Elon
91 - Delaware
97 - Drexel
162 - Hofstra
185 - UNC Wilmington
197 - Towson
3 (South) - James Madison
8 (South) - College of Charleston

Honestly pretty decent overall

I'll always get a laugh at Elon 84th and Drexel in the top 100.

Elon I'm not sure on. Them (And also Northeastern) might've played the 'What do we have to change to increase our USNWR/Forbes rankings' game.

Drexel is probably tough to rank. An engineering degree from there is pretty well respected, but their other programs don't tend to be as highly rated.

I graduated from HS in 07. My college counselor recommended Elon. My parents were like what the **** is Elon? I don't know a single person who ever went there.

I have a master's from Drexel. It's a very good school for business and engineering. Temple crushes it in absolutely everything else, is a much more difficult school, and is more of a traditional college with athletics and school pride. Drexel was always a private school for people who thought they were too good for a state school and couldn't get into GW/BU/Northeastern/Miami level schools. I knew several like this from HS. Once we catch up to them in engineering (probably our worst department), and endowment ($120M behind them and closing the gap every year), we're going to blow by them.
03-27-2020 12:04 PM
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CitrusUCF Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 12:04 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 10:27 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 01:00 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:01 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  CAA Rankings, by USNWR:

40 - W&M
40 - Northeastern
84 - Elon
91 - Delaware
97 - Drexel
162 - Hofstra
185 - UNC Wilmington
197 - Towson
3 (South) - James Madison
8 (South) - College of Charleston

Honestly pretty decent overall

I'll always get a laugh at Elon 84th and Drexel in the top 100.

Elon I'm not sure on. Them (And also Northeastern) might've played the 'What do we have to change to increase our USNWR/Forbes rankings' game.

Drexel is probably tough to rank. An engineering degree from there is pretty well respected, but their other programs don't tend to be as highly rated.

I graduated from HS in 07. My college counselor recommended Elon. My parents were like what the **** is Elon? I don't know a single person who ever went there.

I have a master's from Drexel. It's a very good school for business and engineering. Temple crushes it in absolutely everything else, is a much more difficult school, and is more of a traditional college with athletics and school pride. Drexel was always a private school for people who thought they were too good for a state school and couldn't get into GW/BU/Northeastern/Miami level schools. I knew several like this from HS. Once we catch up to them in engineering (probably our worst department), and endowment ($120M behind them and closing the gap every year), we're going to blow by them.

I have a friend who went to Lehigh for undergrad in computer science and then got his MBA from Drexel. He down talks Drexel and the MBA program's lack of rigor. He ended up getting a Masters in Data Analytics from Notre Dame, which has been much more helpful to his career.
03-27-2020 12:16 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 12:16 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 12:04 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 10:27 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 01:00 AM)JHG722 Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:01 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  CAA Rankings, by USNWR:

40 - W&M
40 - Northeastern
84 - Elon
91 - Delaware
97 - Drexel
162 - Hofstra
185 - UNC Wilmington
197 - Towson
3 (South) - James Madison
8 (South) - College of Charleston

Honestly pretty decent overall

I'll always get a laugh at Elon 84th and Drexel in the top 100.

Elon I'm not sure on. Them (And also Northeastern) might've played the 'What do we have to change to increase our USNWR/Forbes rankings' game.

Drexel is probably tough to rank. An engineering degree from there is pretty well respected, but their other programs don't tend to be as highly rated.

I graduated from HS in 07. My college counselor recommended Elon. My parents were like what the **** is Elon? I don't know a single person who ever went there.

I have a master's from Drexel. It's a very good school for business and engineering. Temple crushes it in absolutely everything else, is a much more difficult school, and is more of a traditional college with athletics and school pride. Drexel was always a private school for people who thought they were too good for a state school and couldn't get into GW/BU/Northeastern/Miami level schools. I knew several like this from HS. Once we catch up to them in engineering (probably our worst department), and endowment ($120M behind them and closing the gap every year), we're going to blow by them.

I have a friend who went to Lehigh for undergrad in computer science and then got his MBA from Drexel. He down talks Drexel and the MBA program's lack of rigor. He ended up getting a Masters in Data Analytics from Notre Dame, which has been much more helpful to his career.

I enjoyed my master's program, but I got a 3.7 without working especially hard. Temple is a much more challenging school. I went to an open house for the MBA program at Drexel, but I was the youngest person there by like 5 years, so it wasn't something I was really looking to do anytime soon.
03-27-2020 01:18 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-26-2020 10:20 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Using the Carnegie Research Classification Tiers:

#1 AAC:
Tier 1: Houston, Tulane, Cincinnati, UCF, USF, Temple, UCONN
Tier 2: SMU, Tulsa, Memphis, East Carolina, Wichita State

#2 C-USA:
Tier 1: FIU, UAB, Rice, UT-El Paso, North Texas, Southern Miss
Tier 2: FAU, UNC-Charlotte, UT-San Antonio, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Old Dominion

#3 MWC:
Tier 1: Colorado State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada, New Mexico, San Diego State
Tier 2: Boise State, Utah State, Wyoming

#4 Sun Belt:
Tier 1: Georgia State, UT-Arlington
Tier 2: Georgia Southern, Texas State, UL-Lafayette, South Alabama, Arkansas State, Arkansas-Little Rock

#5 MAC:
Tier 1: Buffalo
Tier 2: Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green, CMU, EMU, Kent State, Miami OH, NIU, Ohio, Toledo, WMU

Only wanted to do Group of 5 schools, but a comprehensive list can be found here
Didn't someone just show Boise st , UNLV then SJSU as bottom three MWC. Also Hawaii is an affiliate member their a Big West school.
03-27-2020 04:47 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-26-2020 04:14 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 04:05 PM)whittx Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 02:27 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  UVM considered a Public Ivy

Binghamton is tougher to get into than all the SUNY's but Stony Brook and maybe Geneseo. They don't have a med school or a law school, though.

UVM is the University of Vermont

And both are America East schools.
03-27-2020 05:56 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
Looked up the Southern Conference
Furman #46 National Liberal Arts
VMI #72 National Liberal Arts
Wofford #72 National Liberal Arts
Citadel #2 Regional South
West Carolina #23 Regional South
Samford #147
Mercer #153
UNC Greensboro #272
TN-Chattanooga #293-381
E. Tennessee St. #293-381
03-27-2020 07:22 PM
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MKPitt Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 07:22 PM)bullet Wrote:  Looked up the Southern Conference
Furman #46 National Liberal Arts
VMI #72 National Liberal Arts
Wofford #72 National Liberal Arts
Citadel #2 Regional South
West Carolina #23 Regional South
Samford #147
Mercer #153
UNC Greensboro #272
TN-Chattanooga #293-381
E. Tennessee St. #293-381

Very good for a mid major conference.
03-27-2020 08:02 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 11:59 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Since joining academia, what's been interesting to me is your last point about department strength. It's not at all necessarily related to the overall reputation of the university, and the faculty in the field know it. For instance, the department I'm associated with is more prestigious and cited (you know that citation count is what really matters to academics) ...

Yep, and that's a big change. When I joined academia 30 years ago, the whole ballgame was publishing in "top" journals. Scholars were ranked by how many "A-journal" publications they had, etc. But the past 10 years, the emergence of Google Scholar, Web of Science, Researchgate, etc. has changed the ballgame. Journal prestige still matters a lot, but now, it's better to have a "B" journal publication that gets cited 100 times than an "A" journal publication that gets ignored.

Of course a cottage industry has emerged analyzing and debating the methodologies of various indices (and some of these papers have become widely cited, LOL) but the fundamental fact remains.
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2020 09:24 AM by quo vadis.)
03-28-2020 09:23 AM
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Post: #49
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 07:22 PM)bullet Wrote:  Looked up the Southern Conference
Furman #46 National Liberal Arts
VMI #72 National Liberal Arts
Wofford #72 National Liberal Arts
Citadel #2 Regional South
West Carolina #23 Regional South
Samford #147
Mercer #153
UNC Greensboro #272
TN-Chattanooga #293-381
E. Tennessee St. #293-381

The Citadel ranking is weird because they really should be in the same category as VMI, but they have a limited array of master’s programs for non-cadets at night. Charleston needed some public master’s programs to meet community needs, but I still don’t understand why they were established at The Citadel instead of at the College of Charleston or through a USC branch campus. It’s such a very odd fit given the culture of The Citadel as a military school and the ring culture. I have a feeling the master’s students get treated as alumni about as well as the Harvard Extension School people do.
03-28-2020 09:25 AM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-25-2020 09:43 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The Patriot League would be #2. The Big West with five UCs and Hawaii would be up there as well, no lower than 4th.

Disagree. The ACC has five legitimate top 50 schools in Duke, Virginia, Notre Dame, North Carolina and Wake Forest, with Pitt, Syracuse, and Miami not far behind.

Outside of Lehigh and Colgate, and excepting the academies, the PL schools are not altogether strong, just more selective than a Florida State or Louisvile.
03-28-2020 05:07 PM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-28-2020 05:07 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:43 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The Patriot League would be #2. The Big West with five UCs and Hawaii would be up there as well, no lower than 4th.

Disagree. The ACC has five legitimate top 50 schools in Duke, Virginia, Notre Dame, North Carolina and Wake Forest, with Pitt, Syracuse, and Miami not far behind.

Outside of Lehigh and Colgate, and excepting the academies, the PL schools are not altogether strong, just more selective than a Florida State or Louisvile.

Bucknell and Lafayette are both well regarded, and Boston University is pretty good too.
03-28-2020 05:26 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
This conversation is all over the place because there are so many definitions being used to show the "best" academically. Research may be a big deal in certain conversations but undergraduate may be more important in other conversations. Without a basis for the conversation (for instance if we were talking about which Universities fit best within a certain conference) it is really hard to figure out what is trully the best ranking.

IN addition I know it is in vogue to use this year's numbers but fro some of this you may be better off bringing in numbers over time because some rankings fluctuate quite a bit when you are not talking about the top.
03-28-2020 10:15 PM
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TrueBlueDrew Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-27-2020 04:47 PM)CoastalVANDAL Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:20 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Using the Carnegie Research Classification Tiers:

#1 AAC:
Tier 1: Houston, Tulane, Cincinnati, UCF, USF, Temple, UCONN
Tier 2: SMU, Tulsa, Memphis, East Carolina, Wichita State

#2 C-USA:
Tier 1: FIU, UAB, Rice, UT-El Paso, North Texas, Southern Miss
Tier 2: FAU, UNC-Charlotte, UT-San Antonio, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Old Dominion

#3 MWC:
Tier 1: Colorado State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada, New Mexico, San Diego State
Tier 2: Boise State, Utah State, Wyoming

#4 Sun Belt:
Tier 1: Georgia State, UT-Arlington
Tier 2: Georgia Southern, Texas State, UL-Lafayette, South Alabama, Arkansas State, Arkansas-Little Rock

#5 MAC:
Tier 1: Buffalo
Tier 2: Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green, CMU, EMU, Kent State, Miami OH, NIU, Ohio, Toledo, WMU

Only wanted to do Group of 5 schools, but a comprehensive list can be found here
Didn't someone just show Boise st , UNLV then SJSU as bottom three MWC. Also Hawaii is an affiliate member their a Big West school.

I'm not sure what other metrics posters have been using in their rankings but Carnegie Doctoral Research schools are split into tiers based on how much research activity is taking place on their campus. Boise State is a tier 2 research school meaning they have moderate research activity. UNLV is a tier 1 school for high research activity. SJSU does not have doctoral programs and therefore is not counted by this ranking. Any G5 school that is not included is missing because they don't offer doctoral degrees. (App State, WKU, and Coastal Carolina for example)

I included every school that each conference has on it's main website except for service academies which is not counted by Carnegie. There are several affiliates included in this ranking, but they are either a football-only member or an all-sports-besides-football member.
(This post was last modified: 03-30-2020 09:32 AM by TrueBlueDrew.)
03-30-2020 07:16 AM
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Post: #54
RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-28-2020 05:07 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:43 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The Patriot League would be #2. The Big West with five UCs and Hawaii would be up there as well, no lower than 4th.

Disagree. The ACC has five legitimate top 50 schools in Duke, Virginia, Notre Dame, North Carolina and Wake Forest, with Pitt, Syracuse, and Miami not far behind.

Outside of Lehigh and Colgate, and excepting the academies, the PL schools are not altogether strong, just more selective than a Florida State or Louisvile.

You might be surprised how tough FSU is to get into now. Don't know how their selectivity numbers compare, but its not easy.
03-30-2020 09:11 AM
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CitrusUCF Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-30-2020 09:11 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(03-28-2020 05:07 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(03-25-2020 09:43 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  The Patriot League would be #2. The Big West with five UCs and Hawaii would be up there as well, no lower than 4th.

Disagree. The ACC has five legitimate top 50 schools in Duke, Virginia, Notre Dame, North Carolina and Wake Forest, with Pitt, Syracuse, and Miami not far behind.

Outside of Lehigh and Colgate, and excepting the academies, the PL schools are not altogether strong, just more selective than a Florida State or Louisvile.

You might be surprised how tough FSU is to get into now. Don't know how their selectivity numbers compare, but its not easy.

The Big 4 Florida publics -- UCF, USF, FSU, and UF, are all pretty difficult to get admitted to as a freshman now. Although, due to state law, all of them end up taking a decent number of community college transfers, which serves a backdoor that fudges the meaning of the freshman selectivity a bit.

School - Acceptance rate - 25/75 ACT
UCF - 38% - 25/29
USF - 45% - 24/28
FSU - 33% - 28/31
UF - 38% - 27/32

Institutionally, FSU is being held back by a medical school that does not emphasize research and a problematic engineering school that is shared with Florida A&M. The engineering school has a lot of issues due to the shared administration. FSU and FAMU students sit together in the same class but have different curves for grades, for instance. When you look outside these factors, however, you see that FSU has developed as a very high quality public university. If these issues could be resolved, I think FSU would be a slam dunk AAU candidate.
03-30-2020 01:29 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
The only reason the acceptance rate is low is because of Bright Futures. I interned in FSU's athletic department. Those students are some of the dumbest people I've ever met in my life.
03-30-2020 01:45 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
So who are the FBS IVY’s? Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Rice, and Temple?
03-30-2020 01:49 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-30-2020 01:49 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  So who are the FBS IVY’s? Duke, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Rice, and Temple?

Tulane, not Temple
03-30-2020 02:03 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-30-2020 01:45 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  The only reason the acceptance rate is low is because of Bright Futures. I interned in FSU's athletic department. Those students are some of the dumbest people I've ever met in my life.

Yes and no. Florida is not the only state with a scholarship program to entice students to stay in-state. And the value of Bright Futures hasn't really kept up with inflation, though I feel like they boosted the benefits last year, so maybe that situation is improving.

Georgia, for instance, has the Hope Scholarship, which is comparable to Bright Futures. Historically it has been more valuable and easier to earn than Bright Futures, though I don't know if that still holds true. The acceptance rates in GA: Ga State (71%, 21/26), UGA (45%, 30/34), Ga Tech (19%, 31/34), Ga Southern (68%, 21/25), Kennesaw St (58%, 21/26). Georgia Tech is a big outlier, and I think it's a better university than any in Florida (though not as comprehensive as any of our Big 4). But the others are comparable to peers, and I think Florida is clearly doing well in comparison.

Some of it simply is Florida's population. We have 10 comprehensive state universities and 2 specialized institutions. Georgia has way more than that. Texas has way more than that. So we get a lot of applications per institution and can't serve them all at the top schools. The other part is that the Florida schools have done a lot to make themselves desirable for students through rapidly improving academics, amenities, athletic success, location, etc.
03-30-2020 03:23 PM
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RE: Ranking the top twelve non P5 D1 conferences academically
(03-30-2020 07:16 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 04:47 PM)CoastalVANDAL Wrote:  
(03-26-2020 10:20 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  Using the Carnegie Research Classification Tiers:

#1 AAC:
Tier 1: Houston, Tulane, Cincinnati, UCF, USF, Temple, UCONN
Tier 2: SMU, Tulsa, Memphis, East Carolina, Wichita State

#2 C-USA:
Tier 1: FIU, UAB, Rice, UT-El Paso, North Texas, Southern Miss
Tier 2: FAU, UNC-Charlotte, UT-San Antonio, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Old Dominion

#3 MWC:
Tier 1: Colorado State, Hawaii, UNLV, Nevada, New Mexico, San Diego State
Tier 2: Boise State, Utah State, Wyoming

#4 Sun Belt:
Tier 1: Georgia State, UT-Arlington
Tier 2: Georgia Southern, Texas State, UL-Lafayette, South Alabama, Arkansas State, Arkansas-Little Rock

#5 MAC:
Tier 1: Buffalo
Tier 2: Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green, CMU, EMU, Kent State, Miami OH, NIU, Ohio, Toledo, WMU

Only wanted to do Group of 5 schools, but a comprehensive list can be found here
Didn't someone just show Boise st , UNLV then SJSU as bottom three MWC. Also Hawaii is an affiliate member their a Big West school.

I'm not sure what other metrics posters have been using in their rankings but Carnegie Doctoral Research schools are split into tiers based on how much research activity is taking place on their campus. Boise State is a tier 2 research school meaning they have moderate research activity. UNLV is a tier 1 school for high research activity. SJSU does not have doctoral programs and therefore is not counted by this ranking. Any G5 school that is not included is missing because they don't offer doctoral degrees. (App State, WKU, and Coastal Carolina for example)

I included every school that each conference has on it's main website except for service academies which is not counted by Carnegie. There are several affiliates included in this ranking, but they are either a football-only member or an all-sports-besides-football member.
It was two post before yours he used USNWR listed 11 schools those three were last. I just read one then the other Hawaii was listed.
03-30-2020 08:02 PM
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