(03-24-2020 10:32 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  After several iterations:

PAC-14
Arizona
Arizona St.
California
Colorado
Kansas
Oklahoma
Oregon
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington

This is right along with my thinking on this issue. I could quibble on who the 14th program would be but, being that Kansas would be preferred over Oklahoma State due to content beyond football season, it's not an issue I should consider to be a deal-breaker.

This way, neither side appears to have gotten one over the other. While there is more drag on the Big 12 side there's also drag on the PAC side. This is not me being trollish but seeing from an objective standpoint.

In any case, any conference with that profile would have to be division-less. The Arizona schools would want to play in CA and TX as much as possible.

Of course, nothing can happen until both sides set aside their egos and pride to start working together. Well, I have a better chance at winning Powerball...

(03-24-2020 10:52 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I personally prefer the service academies be independent, but otherwise BePcr, that's pretty good.

I prefer that, as well. I like the idea of having more independents and I'd start with Notre Dame, BYU, Army, Navy, and Air Force.

But, let's say Navy and Air Force (but not BYU) go independent. That leaves us with 26 schools for the Western (11) and the AAC (15). A simple move of Tulsa to the Western makes this work.

Western
West: Hawaii, UNLV, San Diego St, Fresno St, Oregon St, Washington St
East: Nevada, Boise St, BYU, Colorado St, New Mexico, Tulsa

AAC
West: Iowa St, Kansas St, Oklahoma St, TCU, SMU, Baylor, Houston
East: Tulane, Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, East Carolina, Central Florida, South Florida

(03-24-2020 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:52 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I personally prefer the service academies be independent, but otherwise BePcr, that's pretty good.

I prefer that, as well. I like the idea of having more independents and I'd start with Notre Dame, BYU, Army, Navy, and Air Force.

But, let's say Navy and Air Force (but not BYU) go independent. That leaves us with 26 schools for the Western (11) and the AAC (15). A simple move of Tulsa to the Western makes this work.

Western
West: Hawaii, UNLV, San Diego St, Fresno St, Oregon St, Washington St
East: Nevada, Boise St, BYU, Colorado St, New Mexico, Tulsa

AAC
West: Iowa St, Kansas St, Oklahoma St, TCU, SMU, Baylor, Houston
East: Tulane, Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, East Carolina, Central Florida, South Florida

It’s all just fan speculation at this point. My thinking was that the AAC East and West would play round robin schedules with the champion from each meeting in a championship game. Thus a true champion.

That's a pretty good alignment.

(03-24-2020 11:55 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:32 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  After several iterations:

PAC-14
Arizona
Arizona St.
California
Colorado
Kansas
Oklahoma
Oregon
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington

This is right along with my thinking on this issue. I could quibble on who the 14th program would be but, being that Kansas would be preferred over Oklahoma State due to content beyond football season, it's not an issue I should consider to be a deal-breaker.

This way, neither side appears to have gotten one over the other. While there is more drag on the Big 12 side there's also drag on the PAC side. This is not me being trollish but seeing from an objective standpoint.

In any case, any conference with that profile would have to be division-less. The Arizona schools would want to play in CA and TX as much as possible.

Of course, nothing can happen until both sides set aside their egos and pride to start working together. Well, I have a better chance at winning Powerball...

As a Texas fan I would hope more schools from the current Big 12 would be included in this. There's a glaring reason why the Pac is in bad shape now. Not sure why people feel if they purge Washington St, Oregon St it would be enough. Cal, Colorado would be on my chopping list too. I'm not sure what to think of Stanford, seems like they are the biggest reason why the conference is currently in such a bad spot.

I understand that the Big 12 is only Texas, ou and Kansas but even so they can keep other "not so prestigious schools" relevant and in good financial spaces.

Which is why i feel both conferences could trim down to 8 schools, form divisions and merge or create a new conference..Big 16 with the Pac and Central divisions. If not, then Texas/ou should put all the pressure on SC to join the Big 12 because let's face it.. No one is gonna swoop in and save the current Pac 12. If SC falls, others will be wanting a life raft as well..imo of course.

(03-26-2020 08:39 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 11:55 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:32 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  After several iterations:

PAC-14
Arizona
Arizona St.
California
Colorado
Kansas
Oklahoma
Oregon
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington

This is right along with my thinking on this issue. I could quibble on who the 14th program would be but, being that Kansas would be preferred over Oklahoma State due to content beyond football season, it's not an issue I should consider to be a deal-breaker.

This way, neither side appears to have gotten one over the other. While there is more drag on the Big 12 side there's also drag on the PAC side. This is not me being trollish but seeing from an objective standpoint.

In any case, any conference with that profile would have to be division-less. The Arizona schools would want to play in CA and TX as much as possible.

Of course, nothing can happen until both sides set aside their egos and pride to start working together. Well, I have a better chance at winning Powerball...

As a Texas fan I would hope more schools from the current Big 12 would be included in this. There's a glaring reason why the Pac is in bad shape now. Not sure why people feel if they purge Washington St, Oregon St it would be enough. Cal, Colorado would be on my chopping list too. I'm not sure what to think of Stanford, seems like they are the biggest reason why the conference is currently in such a bad spot.

I understand that the Big 12 is only Texas, ou and Kansas but even so they can keep other "not so prestigious schools" relevant and in good financial spaces.

Which is why i feel both conferences could trim down to 8 schools, form divisions and merge or create a new conference..Big 16 with the Pac and Central divisions. If not, then Texas/ou should put all the pressure on SC to join the Big 12 because let's face it.. No one is gonna swoop in and save the current Pac 12. If SC falls, others will be wanting a life raft as well..imo of course.

Now there's a contradiction. How do you trim down each conference to eight and also keep the "not so prestigious schools" relevant and in good spaces? By definition, half of every conference's members are below average. To trim each conference to eight means that some of the perennial bottom feeders would have to be dumped.

The purpose of conference realignment should be to create regionally relevant associations of like-minded institutions who are eager and demonstrably able to compete on the field and court. That's the stuff of which lasting rivalries are made.

(03-24-2020 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:52 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I personally prefer the service academies be independent, but otherwise BePcr, that's pretty good.

I prefer that, as well. I like the idea of having more independents and I'd start with Notre Dame, BYU, Army, Navy, and Air Force.

But, let's say Navy and Air Force (but not BYU) go independent. That leaves us with 26 schools for the Western (11) and the AAC (15). A simple move of Tulsa to the Western makes this work.

Western
West: Hawaii, UNLV, San Diego St, Fresno St, Oregon St, Washington St
East: Nevada, Boise St, BYU, Colorado St, New Mexico, Tulsa

AAC
West: Iowa St, Kansas St, Oklahoma St, TCU, SMU, Baylor, Houston
East: Tulane, Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, East Carolina, Central Florida, South Florida

Oklahoma St., TCU and SMU are all further west than Tulsa.

Taking a "path of least resistance" approach to G5 realignment, assuming that none of these schools are likely to move up to a P5 conference in the near future, would be this, IMO.

There are 11 football schools left in the AAC. Using that as your base, add five more schools and have two 8 team divisions that together include most of the contenders for an access bid to the CFP. The schools I would add are Marshall (or Appalachian State) for the eastern division, and Boise State, San Diego State, Utah State and Air Force (the four highest ranked teams based on ten year average performance) who would join with Houston, Navy, SMU and Tulsa in the western division.

The champion of this conference would likely be the highest ranked G5 team most of the time, if for no reason other than their strength of schedule would be far superior to any other conference. I can't imagine that this conference wouldn't get at least as good a media deal as any of them have now, and probably better. In time, they might even be able to get a contract for their champion with the Cotton Bowl, supplanting the all-G5 access deal with the CFP.

(03-26-2020 10:06 AM)TU72N76 Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:52 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  I personally prefer the service academies be independent, but otherwise BePcr, that's pretty good.

I prefer that, as well. I like the idea of having more independents and I'd start with Notre Dame, BYU, Army, Navy, and Air Force.

But, let's say Navy and Air Force (but not BYU) go independent. That leaves us with 26 schools for the Western (11) and the AAC (15). A simple move of Tulsa to the Western makes this work.

Western
West: Hawaii, UNLV, San Diego St, Fresno St, Oregon St, Washington St
East: Nevada, Boise St, BYU, Colorado St, New Mexico, Tulsa

AAC
West: Iowa St, Kansas St, Oklahoma St, TCU, SMU, Baylor, Houston
East: Tulane, Memphis, Cincinnati, Temple, East Carolina, Central Florida, South Florida

Oklahoma St., TCU and SMU are all further west than Tulsa.

Very good!

(03-26-2020 08:39 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  As a Texas fan I would hope more schools from the current Big 12 would be included in this. There's a glaring reason why the Pac is in bad shape now. Not sure why people feel if they purge Washington St, Oregon St it would be enough. Cal, Colorado would be on my chopping list too. I'm not sure what to think of Stanford, seems like they are the biggest reason why the conference is currently in such a bad spot.

I understand that the Big 12 is only Texas, ou and Kansas but even so they can keep other "not so prestigious schools" relevant and in good financial spaces.

Which is why i feel both conferences could trim down to 8 schools, form divisions and merge or create a new conference..Big 16 with the Pac and Central divisions. If not, then Texas/ou should put all the pressure on SC to join the Big 12 because let's face it.. No one is gonna swoop in and save the current Pac 12. If SC falls, others will be wanting a life raft as well..imo of course.

Welcome to CSNNBBS, Thiefery!

You are a Texas fan and will favor your Big 12 schools over Pac-12 schools. I am a Big Ten fan and am somewhat a neutral party although I will tell you I have a cousin who graduated from Berkeley and a cousin who graduated from Texas.

I warn against overemphasizing current football performance. Players and coaches can change over time, a team that's great now may not be as good 10 years from now. I would say academics and demographics (population) are important as well.

In general, a "2nd choice" school in a state is going to be less attractive than a 1st choice school. That throws the following schools out for sure from the Pac-12/Big 12: Washington State, Oregon State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State, and Iowa State. Texas Tech is a 3rd choice and really should be an unwanted school too but many assume Texas wants them (you can tell me more than I can). The other thing is because it's Texas their 3rd school might be more valuable than a 2nd school in Oregon, Washington, Oklahoma, Kansas, or Iowa, even if Texas didn't want them.

Now in terms of state schools in California, Berkeley is their #1 but UCLA is well respected in California and in Los Angeles, no one's going to leave them out. Even if UCLA is their #1 athletically, you're not going to leave out the Bay Area's state school. Stanford and USC are pretty prominent private schools in large metro areas. Now TCU is in Ft. Worth (Dallas metro) so they have that going for them but they're not Stanford or USC. Baylor's worthless and if it weren't for Bob Bullock they wouldn't even be in the Big 12. You're also not leaving Colorado out. We've also discussed the Arizona schools, it's hard to choose just one of them.

Like it or not, most of the Big 12 schools don't measure up to the Pac-12 schools. Texas is better than all of them. Oklahoma's better than most. Kansas would be somewhere in the bottom half. All the rest would be around Oregon State-Washington State territory. The Big 12's worth more than the Pac-12 but take Texas/Oklahoma out and they're the AAC.

(03-24-2020 11:55 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:32 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  After several iterations:

PAC-14
Arizona
Arizona St.
California
Colorado
Kansas
Oklahoma
Oregon
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington

This is right along with my thinking on this issue. I could quibble on who the 14th program would be but, being that Kansas would be preferred over Oklahoma State due to content beyond football season, it's not an issue I should consider to be a deal-breaker.

This way, neither side appears to have gotten one over the other. While there is more drag on the Big 12 side there's also drag on the PAC side. This is not me being trollish but seeing from an objective standpoint.

In any case, any conference with that profile would have to be division-less. The Arizona schools would want to play in CA and TX as much as possible.

Of course, nothing can happen until both sides set aside their egos and pride to start working together. Well, I have a better chance at winning Powerball...

I see your point. Texas isn't obligated but as we have seen in the past.. politics get in the way.. which is why I feel Tech will be included. They have grown as a University in numbers and especially in it's agriculture dept.

The easiest answer would be for both Texas and Oklahoma to join the SEC west since more of it's geographical rivalries are there in Ark, LSU, aggy.. but I don't see Texas ever going to the SEC.. and no offense, I don't want to join the Big 10 either. I hope Texas and ou continue in the Big 12 or in some form of merger with the pac schools.

(03-26-2020 11:21 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(03-26-2020 08:39 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  As a Texas fan I would hope more schools from the current Big 12 would be included in this. There's a glaring reason why the Pac is in bad shape now. Not sure why people feel if they purge Washington St, Oregon St it would be enough. Cal, Colorado would be on my chopping list too. I'm not sure what to think of Stanford, seems like they are the biggest reason why the conference is currently in such a bad spot.

I understand that the Big 12 is only Texas, ou and Kansas but even so they can keep other "not so prestigious schools" relevant and in good financial spaces.

Which is why i feel both conferences could trim down to 8 schools, form divisions and merge or create a new conference..Big 16 with the Pac and Central divisions. If not, then Texas/ou should put all the pressure on SC to join the Big 12 because let's face it.. No one is gonna swoop in and save the current Pac 12. If SC falls, others will be wanting a life raft as well..imo of course.

Welcome to CSNNBBS, Thiefery!

You are a Texas fan and will favor your Big 12 schools over Pac-12 schools. I am a Big Ten fan and am somewhat a neutral party although I will tell you I have a cousin who graduated from Berkeley and a cousin who graduated from Texas.

I warn against overemphasizing current football performance. Players and coaches can change over time, a team that's great now may not be as good 10 years from now. I would say academics and demographics (population) are important as well.

In general, a "2nd choice" school in a state is going to be less attractive than a 1st choice school. That throws the following schools out for sure from the Pac-12/Big 12: Washington State, Oregon State, Oklahoma State, Kansas State, and Iowa State. Texas Tech is a 3rd choice and really should be an unwanted school too but many assume Texas wants them (you can tell me more than I can). The other thing is because it's Texas their 3rd school might be more valuable than a 2nd school in Oregon, Washington, Oklahoma, Kansas, or Iowa, even if Texas didn't want them.

Now in terms of state schools in California, Berkeley is their #1 but UCLA is well respected in California and in Los Angeles, no one's going to leave them out. Even if UCLA is their #1 athletically, you're not going to leave out the Bay Area's state school. Stanford and USC are pretty prominent private schools in large metro areas. Now TCU is in Ft. Worth (Dallas metro) so they have that going for them but they're not Stanford or USC. Baylor's worthless and if it weren't for Bob Bullock they wouldn't even be in the Big 12. You're also not leaving Colorado out. We've also discussed the Arizona schools, it's hard to choose just one of them.

Like it or not, most of the Big 12 schools don't measure up to the Pac-12 schools. Texas is better than all of them. Oklahoma's better than most. Kansas would be somewhere in the bottom half. All the rest would be around Oregon State-Washington State territory. The Big 12's worth more than the Pac-12 but take Texas/Oklahoma out and they're the AAC.

The Big 12 schools are more valuable, have better managed athletic departments, draw better ratings and perform better on the field in the revenue sports on average than the Pac 12 schools.

Now if you are talking academically and non-rev sports, you have a point.

Now the bottom of both the Big 12 and Pac 12 are more likely to be competitive than the bottom quarter of the other 3 conferences. The other 3 get dominated by the top teams. 6 of 10 Big 12 teams have won the title since 2005 +WVU won in BE and TT and KU have top 10 regular season finishes in that time frame. 6 of 12 Pac 12 have won in that time frame and all 10 P10 teams have won since 1990 + CU and Utah won in their previous conferences since the turn of the century. In contrast, only 5 of 14 ACC schools have won since 2005 (although several won BE titles), only 4 of 14 Big 10 and 5 of 14 SEC.

From JR's equity in athletics chart, below are the Big 12 and Pac 12 schools ranked in revenue. Note that Baylor and WVU are basically equal to the Arizona schools and TCU is basically equal to USC and Kansas:

1. Texas: $215,829,101
2. Oklahoma: $159,286,136
3. Stanford $139,390,932
4. Washington: $133,792,677
5. U.C.L.A.: $127,339,042
6. Kansas: $119,768,008
7. U.S.C.: $118,687,120
8. T.C.U.: $118,496,653
9. Oregon: $108,500,370
10. Arizona: $102,275,918
11. Arizona State: $101,836,361
12. Baylor: $101,243,920
13. West Virginia: $101,095,223
14. Colorado: $98,413,285
15. California: $94,646,123
16. Utah: $94,177,912
17. Oklahoma State: $91,066952
18. Kansas State: $89,919,819
19. Texas Tech: $86,442,709
20. Oregon State: $82,364,021
21. Iowa State: $79,860,045
22. Washington State: $75,957,792

If there was a 16 team merger, Texas Tech would not get left behind and WVU probably would.
So based on revenue and those qualifications, it would be:
EAST
Texas
Oklahoma
Kansas
TCU
Baylor
Colorado
Oklahoma St.
Texas Tech
WEST
Stanford
Washington
UCLA
USC
Oregon
Arizona
Arizona St.
California

Other than breaking up 3 big rivalries, that's pretty good.

(03-26-2020 01:43 PM)Thiefery Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 11:55 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(03-24-2020 10:32 AM)SMUstang Wrote:  After several iterations:

PAC-14
Arizona
Arizona St.
California
Colorado
Kansas
Oklahoma
Oregon
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington

This is right along with my thinking on this issue. I could quibble on who the 14th program would be but, being that Kansas would be preferred over Oklahoma State due to content beyond football season, it's not an issue I should consider to be a deal-breaker.

This way, neither side appears to have gotten one over the other. While there is more drag on the Big 12 side there's also drag on the PAC side. This is not me being trollish but seeing from an objective standpoint.

In any case, any conference with that profile would have to be division-less. The Arizona schools would want to play in CA and TX as much as possible.

Of course, nothing can happen until both sides set aside their egos and pride to start working together. Well, I have a better chance at winning Powerball...

I see your point. Texas isn't obligated but as we have seen in the past.. politics get in the way.. which is why I feel Tech will be included. They have grown as a University in numbers and especially in it's agriculture dept.

The easiest answer would be for both Texas and Oklahoma to join the SEC west since more of it's geographical rivalries are there in Ark, LSU, aggy.. but I don't see Texas ever going to the SEC.. and no offense, I don't want to join the Big 10 either. I hope Texas and ou continue in the Big 12 or in some form of merger with the pac schools.

No, I totally understand your position. That's why I've been coming around to the idea of a third major conference with the elements of both the Pac-12 and the Big 12. Perhaps it is easier to build a major conference surrounding UT, OU, USC and, possibly, Kansas, than from the West Coast forward. The issue would be whether to build out a western conference or, borrowing from JRsec's idea, more of a national conference of 20 programs that has elements of PAC, Big 12 and including some from the ACC. The latter would have travel issues and other problems but one that I think would be a bonanza in terms of exposure from East to West.

(03-26-2020 09:53 PM)bullet Wrote:  From JR's equity in athletics chart, below are the Big 12 and Pac 12 schools ranked in revenue. Note that Baylor and WVU are basically equal to the Arizona schools and TCU is basically equal to USC and Kansas:

1. Texas: $215,829,101
2. Oklahoma: $159,286,136
3. Stanford $139,390,932
4. Washington: $133,792,677
5. U.C.L.A.: $127,339,042
6. Kansas: $119,768,008
7. U.S.C.: $118,687,120
8. T.C.U.: $118,496,653
9. Oregon: $108,500,370
10. Arizona: $102,275,918
11. Arizona State: $101,836,361
12. Baylor: $101,243,920
13. West Virginia: $101,095,223
14. Colorado: $98,413,285
15. California: $94,646,123
16. Utah: $94,177,912
17. Oklahoma State: $91,066952
18. Kansas State: $89,919,819
19. Texas Tech: $86,442,709
20. Oregon State: $82,364,021
21. Iowa State: $79,860,045
22. Washington State: $75,957,792

(03-26-2020 10:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  If there was a 16 team merger, Texas Tech would not get left behind and WVU probably would.
So based on revenue and those qualifications, it would be:
EAST
Texas
Oklahoma
Kansas
TCU
Baylor
Colorado
Oklahoma St.
Texas Tech
WEST
Stanford
Washington
UCLA
USC
Oregon
Arizona
Arizona St.
California

If you don't think I respect Texas Tech, I respect Baylor even less. I personally feel politicians should keep their butts out of conference formations and let the conferences choose who they feel are the best schools. On the other hand, Texas does have a responsibility to the state schools in its state, including Texas Tech, and you can argue they should be fighting to take care of them. But they have no business fighting to take care of a private school like Baylor, especially at the expense of a public school in their state like Houston. That's flat out nepotism.

Certainly the question on what kind of makeup of any "Pac 12/Big 12" merger will depend on which side is calling the shots. Both sides will want more of their schools in. The fairest way would be to let ESPN and/or FOX decide who is in or out. I'd guess they would choose Utah over Baylor, last year's revenue be damned. How do you leave out an entire state and a fairly large market (Salt Lake City)? TCU at least brings DFW to the table but Texas brings the Dallas/Ft. Worth market (and if you add Texas Tech they bring more of the market, the only thing TCU brings is they are physically in the market). Baylor brings NOTHING. If I could choose 21 schools in a Pac 12/Big 12 merger, Baylor could be the one I'd leave out (OK, that would be an exaggeration).

SMUStang's 14 looks to be the winning combination I would choose if it was completely neutral. Yes it's biased towards the Pac-12. Who would you leave out? You want as many states and as many cities as you can and you want both Cal and Stanford and UCLA and USC.

If they could have 16, TCU would probably be one of the two new ones but I'm not sure Baylor is the other one, I'd give Iowa State a look as they'd bring a new state although geographically you'd stretch the map a bit East. If it were based on merit without regards to geography West Virginia probably should be in the conversation as well.

Texas has never tried to protect Baylor, it was then Gov Anne Richards, a bu alum, who forced Baylor into the big 12 despite Houston, SMU and TCU ahead of them in order.
If I could have my way they would be out as of right now. Baylor has shown time and time again that they put sports over everything.. Yet use the church as a way to play victim. I would trade them for a school like Tulane in a heartbeat.
I hope whatever happens in the not too distant future that Baylor gets left out.

(03-26-2020 10:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  If there was a 16 team merger, Texas Tech would not get left behind and WVU probably would.
So based on revenue and those qualifications, it would be:
EAST
Texas
Oklahoma
Kansas
TCU
Baylor
Colorado
Oklahoma St.
Texas Tech
WEST
Stanford
Washington
UCLA
USC
Oregon
Arizona
Arizona St.
California

A very reasonable assessment.

(03-27-2020 07:28 AM)Thiefery Wrote:  Texas has never tried to protect Baylor, it was then Gov Anne Richards, a bu alum, who forced Baylor into the big 12 despite Houston, SMU and TCU ahead of them in order.
If I could have my way they would be out as of right now. Baylor has shown time and time again that they put sports over everything.. Yet use the church as a way to play victim. I would trade them for a school like Tulane in a heartbeat.
I hope whatever happens in the not too distant future that Baylor gets left out.

She may have played a role behind the scenes but she has never been directly linked. Her lieutenant governor Bob Bullock is the one more credited/blamed with threatening to make sure Baylor (and Texas Tech) were included in the Big 12.

https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Texas-p...490182.php