(02-17-2020 05:56 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 04:09 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Despite Miami's need and affinity for FSU, they will not leave ND and PSU for FSU.

Perhaps, but I dunno. FWIW, Miami did leave behind ND's non-FB sports when they joined the ACC in 2004. Given the unlikelihood of ND FB fully joining a conference, at least up till now, that may mean only PSU as an anchor besides Miami. So the Hurricanes may still bolt. However, if the hypothetical FB-sponsoring multisport EAA (or whatever the Penn State conference is called) can land FSU along with Miami, then I think the ACC is doomed as a major conference.

The ACC works for Miami. Its got a lot of private schools. The public schools are generally relatively small (compared to Big 10 or SEC). And it stretches along the whole Atlantic Coast where their students come from.

The Big East did the same thing except that it didn't have as many geographically friendly schools.

(02-17-2020 06:05 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 05:56 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 04:09 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Despite Miami's need and affinity for FSU, they will not leave ND and PSU for FSU.

Perhaps, but I dunno. FWIW, Miami did leave behind ND's non-FB sports when they joined the ACC in 2004. Given the unlikelihood of ND FB fully joining a conference, at least up till now, that may mean only PSU as an anchor besides Miami. So the Hurricanes may still bolt.

However, if the hypothetical FB-sponsoring multisport EAA (or whatever the Penn State conference is called) can land FSU along with Miami, then I think the ACC is doomed as a major conference. I just don't know how they would have won FSU over. Perhaps by weakening the ACC -- would Maryland have been interested in the hypothetical Penn State conference at any point from the mid-70s to the early '90s?

The ACC works for Miami. Its got a lot of private schools. The public schools are generally relatively small (compared to Big 10 or SEC). And it stretches along the whole Atlantic Coast where their students come from.

The Big East did the same thing except that it didn't have as many geographically friendly schools.

Looks like besides Florida, Miami gets the most students from the northeast: https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/...rsity.html -- maybe that was different 30 years ago though, of course.

Miami is exactly where they wanted to be. The Big East was a consolation prize after it was snubbed by the ACC for FSU.

I’m one who feels that you have what you have with BC and UMFL in the ACC because that was their target, and now that they’re there, there wasn’t the need to try so hard. The academic prestige of “belonging” with the group was always the bigger get, not joining it so you could treat the group like a punching bag.

So back in the '80s, was there anything that could have convinced FSU to shack up with a group of schools whose only member south of Virginia was Miami? Perhaps Penn State might have been a draw, though FSU reportedly opted for the ACC over the SEC because they believed the latter offered too much competition in football. What if the ACC were to show weakness by suffering a defection, such as Maryland to a PSU-led Eastern all-sports conference?

(02-17-2020 11:14 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So back in the '80s, was there anything that could have convinced FSU to shack up with a group of schools whose only member south of Virginia was Miami? Perhaps Penn State might have been a draw, though FSU reportedly opted for the ACC over the SEC because they believed the latter offered too much competition in football. What if the ACC were to show weakness by suffering a defection, such as Maryland to a PSU-led Eastern all-sports conference?

Nobody thought outside of sensible regionality back then, so no. You’ll notice even Army and Navy were mentioned for a northeastern conference while Virginia Tech was never even a thought because they were in the south. It wasn’t until the very late 80’s that mention of an all-sports Eastern Seaboard conference—one that would have included Penn State, South Carolina, and Florida State—emerged. By that time, PSU was having behind the scenes talks with the Big Ten and their mind was made up.

Bowden certainly liked the easier path to the title through the ACC, but remember FSU had Florida and Miami on their schedule every season, and often Notre Dame. The university president and others preferred the academic status of the ACC.

(02-18-2020 08:20 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-17-2020 11:14 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  So back in the '80s, was there anything that could have convinced FSU to shack up with a group of schools whose only member south of Virginia was Miami? Perhaps Penn State might have been a draw, though FSU reportedly opted for the ACC over the SEC because they believed the latter offered too much competition in football. What if the ACC were to show weakness by suffering a defection, such as Maryland to a PSU-led Eastern all-sports conference?

Nobody thought outside of sensible regionality back then, so no. You’ll notice even Army and Navy were mentioned for a northeastern conference while Virginia Tech was never even a thought because they were in the south. It wasn’t until the very late 80’s that mention of an all-sports Eastern Seaboard conference—one that would have included Penn State, South Carolina, and Florida State—emerged. By that time, PSU was having behind the scenes talks with the Big Ten and their mind was made up.

Bowden certainly liked the easier path to the title through the ACC, but remember FSU had Florida and Miami on their schedule every season, and often Notre Dame. The university president and others preferred the academic status of the ACC.

Fair points about the geography and academics of the ACC. I should note though that an eastern conference that contained AAU members PSU, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse (at the time), and possibly Maryland would have been no slouch academically.

If Penn State had been admitted to the Big East in 1982, would the situation be reversed? They could have set more Paterno-friendly terms for revenue sharing when Big East Football came into being and wouldn't have been sniffing around the Big 10 in the 1988-89 timeframe. Pitt would have still been in the Eastern 8 with RU, Temple and WVU in that scenario, and at that point might not have rejected a football home even under PSU favorable terms.

Would Pitt, PSU and WVU be a strong enough conference to draw Florida State out of the Metro and away from the ACC? Or would the Raycom/Metro conference take hold, leaving the ACC as a basketball-centric conference on life support?

(02-15-2020 07:31 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The cold hard fact is that the Big East football conference was terminally ill from the day that it started.

For the Big East to have survived, it needed to attack the ACC first, circa 2000, by having Miami lobby FSU to join the Big East among other things.

The money was about the same, football the Big East was a little better, and basketball was about the same. As for the anchor argument, Miami was every bit as much of a football anchor as was FSU.

Thing is, at the time the ACC raided the Big East in 2002/2003, the ACC had no real advantage over the Big East in terms of brand value, money, or results on the field. The ACC was simply smarter, and realized that it would always be hemmed in on all sides with no room to grow if the Big East remained strong to its north. So it struck first. Had the Big East struck first, things could have been different.

(02-18-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 07:31 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The cold hard fact is that the Big East football conference was terminally ill from the day that it started.

For the Big East to have survived, it needed to attack the ACC first, circa 2000, by having Miami lobby FSU to join the Big East among other things.

The money was about the same, football the Big East was a little better, and basketball was about the same. As for the anchor argument, Miami was every bit as much of a football anchor as was FSU.

Thing is, at the time the ACC raided the Big East in 2002/2003, the ACC had no real advantage over the Big East in terms of brand value, money, or results on the field. The ACC was simply smarter, and realized that it would always be hemmed in on all sides with no room to grow if the Big East remained strong to its north. So it struck first. Had the Big East struck first, things could have been different.

In 2000, the Big East had #2 Miami, #6 Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers. The ACC had #5 Florida State, #17 Georgia Tech, #16 Clemson, Virginia, NC State, UNC, Maryland and Duke.

A 16-team all conference that combined both leagues would have been interesting, and absolutely a power conference today.

For non-football, UConn, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence and Notre Dame would be excluded. Maybe UMass gets included. Maybe the Dayton/Xavier/Marquette/DePaul group gets included, maybe not.

(02-18-2020 10:26 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 07:31 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The cold hard fact is that the Big East football conference was terminally ill from the day that it started.

For the Big East to have survived, it needed to attack the ACC first, circa 2000, by having Miami lobby FSU to join the Big East among other things.

The money was about the same, football the Big East was a little better, and basketball was about the same. As for the anchor argument, Miami was every bit as much of a football anchor as was FSU.

Thing is, at the time the ACC raided the Big East in 2002/2003, the ACC had no real advantage over the Big East in terms of brand value, money, or results on the field. The ACC was simply smarter, and realized that it would always be hemmed in on all sides with no room to grow if the Big East remained strong to its north. So it struck first. Had the Big East struck first, things could have been different.

In 2000, the Big East had #2 Miami, #6 Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers. The ACC had #5 Florida State, #17 Georgia Tech, #16 Clemson, Virginia, NC State, UNC, Maryland and Duke.

A 16-team all conference that combined both leagues would have been interesting, and absolutely a power conference today.

For non-football, UConn, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence and Notre Dame would be excluded. Maybe UMass gets included. Maybe the Dayton/Xavier/Marquette/DePaul group gets included, maybe not.

Before coming to this board in the mid-2000s, I spent a lot of time beginning in the mid-90s on the "rec.sports.football.college" (?) usenet group and circa 2000 or so it was widely believed that the Big East and ACC were the weak sisters of the BCS conferences, and it was a parlor game to combine the best of each into a 12-team conference that could stand up to the others.

So your post reminded me of that. In the end, the ACC kind of accomplished the same thing, albeit less efficiently than if usenet gurus were allowed to do it by fiat, LOL.

Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

(02-16-2020 04:34 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 07:31 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I answered YES, but it’s not for the reason that the OP intimates here. Contrary to popular belief, the basketball/football dichotomy did NOT destroy the Big East football conference. If anything, the fact that schools like Villanova and Georgetown were in the league likely kept Syracuse in the Big East at a minimum for longer than it otherwise would have stayed.

Let’s be very clear here: the blame here on a Big East invite to Villanova football being some type of breaking point is totally wrong. Let’s look at the alternative: does adding, say, UCF at that time instead keep the Big East together? Houston? Memphis? Anyone that was even remotely realistic? Absolutely not. Syracuse and Pitt weren’t sticking around in the Big East if it added those schools.

The cold hard fact is that the Big East football conference was terminally ill from the day that it started. The one school that could have anchored it, Penn State, was already in the Big Ten... and even if they started an eastern football league years earlier, they almost certainly still would have gone to the Big Ten for academic reasons if they ever came calling. Similarly, Miami was *always* going to take an invite from the ACC. There was absolutely no scenario where that could have been stopped. Once Miami left, it was only a matter of time. It didn’t matter what the Catholic members did or whether other football schools could have been added at that point: the Big East was eventually going to get stripped of all of its football assets by the other power conferences (which is exactly what happened).

Is the ACC doomed? Is the Big 12?

I don't expect the SEC or B1G to expand past 16, so at most they'd take 4 from the ACC and Big 12.

Yes.

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work.

(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work.

Bottom line is the 2012 split was good for the new Big East and good for the AAC. Both groups of schools are happier than they would be if they had remained together.

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

"National Champions" ....

(02-18-2020 11:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work.

Bottom line is the 2012 split was good for the new Big East and good for the AAC. Both groups of schools are happier than they would be if they had remained together.

Big East maybe should have split after Miami and VT left. There might still be a northeast conference with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and USF.

(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work.

It was run by basketball people who didn't understand football. That is what guaranteed its quick disintegration. I don't think it was doomed, but if it was, it was bad management that hastened its demise.

I remember being stunned when they were looking for new members and you heard quotes like, "Navy, they are class, class, class." And that they were seriously considering Villanova for a BCS conference playing in a 20,000 seat soccer stadium.
Big East was being run by clueless idiots from Providence. Pitt could see that and looked for the first off ramp they could find.

(02-18-2020 01:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work.

It was run by basketball people who didn't understand football. That is what guaranteed its quick disintegration. I don't think it was doomed, but if it was, it was bad management that hastened its demise.

I remember being stunned when they were looking for new members and you heard quotes like, "Navy, they are class, class, class." And that they were seriously considering Villanova for a BCS conference playing in a 20,000 seat soccer stadium.
Big East was being run by clueless idiots from Providence. Pitt could see that and looked for the first off ramp they could find.

Quick disintegration? Big East football lasted 20 years.

(02-18-2020 10:26 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-15-2020 07:31 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The cold hard fact is that the Big East football conference was terminally ill from the day that it started.

For the Big East to have survived, it needed to attack the ACC first, circa 2000, by having Miami lobby FSU to join the Big East among other things.

The money was about the same, football the Big East was a little better, and basketball was about the same. As for the anchor argument, Miami was every bit as much of a football anchor as was FSU.

Thing is, at the time the ACC raided the Big East in 2002/2003, the ACC had no real advantage over the Big East in terms of brand value, money, or results on the field. The ACC was simply smarter, and realized that it would always be hemmed in on all sides with no room to grow if the Big East remained strong to its north. So it struck first. Had the Big East struck first, things could have been different.

In 2000, the Big East had #2 Miami, #6 Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College, West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers. The ACC had #5 Florida State, #17 Georgia Tech, #16 Clemson, Virginia, NC State, UNC, Maryland and Duke.

A 16-team all conference that combined both leagues would have been interesting, and absolutely a power conference today.

I like that lineup, but enhance it by trading NC State for Penn State and Temple for ND. If ND FB won't join, either keep Temple as FB only or add Navy as FB only.

(02-18-2020 12:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 11:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 11:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-18-2020 10:45 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Football runs college athletics but they let basketball run the Big East. Not gonna work.

Basketball created and ran the Big East, but they tried having football run it. Did not work.

Bottom line is the 2012 split was good for the new Big East and good for the AAC. Both groups of schools are happier than they would be if they had remained together.

Big East maybe should have split after Miami and VT left. There might still be a northeast conference with BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, Temple, West Virginia, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and USF.

The Big East football schools wanted to, but the remaining schools would have lost their BCS status and its automatic NCAA hoops berth because the football schools had not been together long enough to satisfy certain NCAA rules. That is when they decided to add new members and remain together until such time where the schools could later split. Reportedly, BC was not happy with the additions of UofL, UC and USF so they sought out an invitation with the ACC which was accepted.