2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Even with James this would be tough because you don't have elite guards with this class. Not all #1 classes are created equal. There is no 5 star guard in this class and a lack of true point with height creates some issues as well.

Good research.

I agree and many analysts pointed this out preseason and justified our 15- ranking based upon it.

(02-10-2020 10:44 AM)Marc Mensa Wrote:  I agree and many analysts pointed this out preseason and justified our 15- ranking based upon it.

And that ranking was with probably the ref freshman in the country.

The only class that compares to our class sans Wiseman is the UK class Sans Noel...Which is the class that didn't make the tourney.

And that UK team returned the #19 player from 2011 and #22 Freshmen from 2010...Precioius was ranked 15th.

So that team had the 1,8,10 and 38th players from 2012 AND the #19 and #22 from previous years (Noel played 24 games)

That is 5 5* vs. our 1 and they still didn't make the tourney.

It may turn out that Penny cant coach worth a damn...But this year is definitely nowhere near enough evidence to lead that conclusion.

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

And probably a 3-seed.

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

I get all that moving forward. A loss to USF at home however without their best player (we were down 9 with 8 mins left and Precious and Lance in the game) is a bad loss.

Obviously expectations have changed. At this point NIT seems like the most likely possibility with the team’s youth, inexperience, slow growth (if any) and DJ’s injury.

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

(02-10-2020 10:30 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  2019 Duke - 1,3 and 10 picks in the draft
2018 Duke - 2,38 pick paired with Senior Grayson Allen at 21
2017 Duke - 3,20 and 31 paired with Sophmore Kennard at 12 (First Round Exit)
2016 UK - 7,28 paired with So Ulis at 34
2015 Duke - 3,10 and 24
2014 UK - 7 and 17
2013 UK - 6 and 29 (#6 gets hurt UK misses the Tourney)
2012 UK - 1,2 and 29 to go along with Soph. Lamb and Jones @ 18 and 22
2011 UK - 3 and 8 along with Harrelson and Liggins @ 45 and 54 (#3 never played)
2010 UK - 1,5,18 and 29 along with Patterson @ 14

Lets compare that to Memphis 2020...Precious @ ~15 and Nobody else.

Great post.

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

I didn’t say national title but sweet 16 was attainable.

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

More like, "without Wiseman and DJ" Tigers riding a thin line on NCAA bubble.

Without Wiseman only, Tigers were playing basketball well enough to be an at large team.

Now, add James to the mix (a presumptive top 5 overall pick) and things change exponentially.

Just the way basketball works.

Hell, look at the trajectory of the 92-93 team when David Vaughn went down.

Preseason #8. Vaughn goes down and Memphis is one and out in the tourney.

One player CAN make a difference.

Hell, look at the 2002 team when Wise couldn't contribute. Night and day difference without him.

Take Keith Lee off the 82-83 team and tell me how they do when A. Maceo Battle is logging double digit minutes every game.

(02-10-2020 01:05 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

I didn’t say national title but sweet 16 was attainable.

I disagree, but respect your opinion.

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:38 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  Duh.

Wiseman left.

I would be #2 and #~15.

And I'd imagine Memphis would be 21-2 or 20-3 at worst.

I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

A dozen posters have tried to explain it to you, but you continue on your inexplicably clueless path.

Cincinnati 2000
With Kenyon Martin
#1 Preseason ranking
#1 Ranking 20 weeks
#1 Ranking going into CUSA Tournament
28-2 with 2 losses by a combined 10 points

Without Kenyon Martin
- Lose to 16-13 St. Louis in the first round of CUSA Tournament
- Dropped to #2 seed for NCAA Tournament
- Lose to #7 seed Tulsa in the 2nd Round of the NCAA Tournament by 10 points
- Record of 1-2


UNC 2020
UNC With Cole Anthony
- Preseason ranked in top 10
- 6-3

UNC Without Cole Anthony
- 4-9
- Would finish with a record under .500 without him

Cleveland Cavaliers With & Without Guess Who
2016-17: 50-32
2017-18: 19-63

Davidson With & Without Guess Who
1970 - 2007: No NCAA wins
2008: Elite 8
2009 - 2019: No NCAA wins

Duke 2019
29-3 With Zion
#1 in the country
3-3 without Zion

Memphis 2020
Wiseman Vs. Maurice/Thomas

Wiseman
23 minutes
19.7 points
10.7 rebounds
3.0 blocks
76.9% field goal
70.4% free throw

Maurice/Thomas
22 minutes
7.5 points
4.8 rebounds
42.5% field goal
75% free throws

Free Throw Attempts
Wiseman
3 games
27 attempts

Maurice/Thomas
36 games
20 attempts

There is always that kid in grade school that you beat up and instead of just quitting, he keeps on coming at you, you keep beating him up, tell him to stop it and he just won't. The only way to get him to stop is to knock him unconscious.

That is literally you. Unless you give it up, everyone is going to keep mocking you.

(02-10-2020 01:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

That is literally you. Unless you give it up, everyone is going to keep mocking you.

Like how everyone was mocking me 3 weeks ago, when I said we wouldn't make the NCAA tourney, unless we won the conference tourney? Yeah. I'm really stupid and don't know anything. And, you are so intelligent.

(02-10-2020 01:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:56 PM)uskjtc02 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:55 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 11:50 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  I agree it is DUH...But everyone is not as observant as you.

So many hot takes that it needed to be said with everyone ignoring the obvious facts of the situation we are in...We don't have anywhere near the talent other successful Freshmen classes have placed on the floor.

So I placed facts out there to try and give some context to everyone jumping off the bandwagon.

That's some good info. But, if this class wasn't "all that", then why did we have all the off-season talk about "smoke", "undefeated", & "national title"?

James Wiseman enuf said!

Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

A dozen posters have tried to explain it to you, but you continue on your inexplicably clueless path.

Cincinnati 2000
With Kenyon Martin
#1 Preseason ranking
#1 Ranking 20 weeks
#1 Ranking going into CUSA Tournament
28-2 with 2 losses by a combined 10 points

Without Kenyon Martin
- Lose to 16-13 St. Louis in the first round of CUSA Tournament
- Dropped to #2 seed for NCAA Tournament
- Lose to #7 seed Tulsa in the 2nd Round of the NCAA Tournament by 10 points
- Record of 1-2


UNC 2020
UNC With Cole Anthony
- Preseason ranked in top 10
- 6-3

UNC Without Cole Anthony
- 4-9
- Would finish with a record under .500 without him

Cleveland Cavaliers With & Without Guess Who
2016-17: 50-32
2017-18: 19-63

Davidson With & Without Guess Who
1970 - 2007: No NCAA wins
2008: Elite 8
2009 - 2019: No NCAA wins

Duke 2019
29-3 With Zion
#1 in the country
3-3 without Zion

Memphis 2020
Wiseman Vs. Maurice/Thomas

Wiseman
23 minutes
19.7 points
10.7 rebounds
3.0 blocks
76.9% field goal
70.4% free throw

Maurice/Thomas
22 minutes
7.5 points
4.8 rebounds
42.5% field goal
75% free throws

Free Throw Attempts
Wiseman
3 games
27 attempts

Maurice/Thomas
36 games
20 attempts

There is always that kid in grade school that you beat up and instead of just quitting, he keeps on coming at you, you keep beating him up, tell him to stop it and he just won't. The only way to get him to stop is to knock him unconscious.

That is literally you. Unless you give it up, everyone is going to keep mocking you.

Zion I believe had an average rating out of high school closer to #3. Duke had the 1, 2 and 3 ranked players in RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish, and Zion...

but that only adds to the overall point. Duke failed to flourish without Zion and they STILL had the #1 and #2 HS players, as well as a 5 star point guard

(02-10-2020 01:59 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 01:42 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 01:25 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 01:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-10-2020 12:58 PM)oruvoice2 Wrote:  Ah. Got it. Without Wiseman NIT or CBI. With Wiseman national title.

That is literally you. Unless you give it up, everyone is going to keep mocking you.

Like how everyone was mocking me 3 weeks ago, when I said we wouldn't make the NCAA tourney, unless we won the conference tourney? Yeah. I'm really stupid and don't know anything. And, you are so intelligent.

Not unconscious yet?

I'm going back to sleep. You (and most others) are going to look for every reason to cling to the "with Wiseman, we'd have been a contender", mantra. And, that's cool. It shows that you are fans and want to see everything thru Blue & Grey glasses. Nothing wrong with that, necessarily. It's not grounded in reality, but at least you're Tiger fans. And, I can respect that.

I'm going to take a hiatus from Penny talk. He's a nice guy and I hope I'm wrong about him as a coach.

There are only 3 losses that would still occur if Wiseman is on this roster.

Every other games easily swings our way with Wiseman on the roster.

Georgia by 3
SMU by 4
South Florida by 2

Heck I say we beat WSU as well.

I say that is logical...People saying we are at least 20-3 with Wiseman are logical to say anything else shows your bias.

Look at the rosters I posted above with Hall of fame coaches. Only two of those won national championships and 1/2 of them didn't make it to the sweet 16 all with much more talent than is on this team.

Again Penny may stink as a coach...But right now there is not enough data to say that.

Lets look at another roster of a bad coach.

Player Rankings
Freshmen 81
Soph 20,30,40 and 97
Junior 35

6 top 100 guys with experience vs. 60 top 120 Freshmen

Results 18-14...

If Penny does that next year I think we have our answer what type of coach he would be.