(02-02-2020 11:22 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

I disagree with Rothstein- the Big East will get more than three teams in the tournament.

(01-28-2020 08:59 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

Sorry, that's just the way it is in my opinion. It doesn't mean the school can't be elite. Everyone knows that a win over Gonzaga is way more impressive than a win over Northwestern (or South Carolina). Just like in football where a win over Boise St says a whole lot more than a win over Rutgers. But "mid major" status is by definition based on what conference you play in.

What dictionary is that "definition" to be found in? I think you have "definition" confused with "opinion".

For the record, over the past six seasons (the length of time over which tournament units are paid out) eight conferences have averaged more than 2 at-large entries per year. They are:

ACC 6.2
XII 5.7
B1G 5.5
SEC 4.5
EAS 4.0
PAC 3.5
A10 2.3
AAC 2.2

No other conference has averaged 1 at large entry. MWC (0.8) and the WCC (0.7) come closest. The MVC also had a few years with more than the one autobid, but only while Wichita State was still in the conference. Otherwise, no MVC team would have received an at-large bid.

(01-21-2020 03:41 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(01-20-2020 10:15 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  This debate always puzzles me.

CBS Sports' Jerry Palm fields a question from a poster who seemingly thinks Gonzaga is a "mid-major." Then Palm notes he recently chatted with somebody who characterized the Big East's Butler as a "mid-major."

Palm, to his credit, makes clear Gonzaga is a a major program. And he also notes he tries to steer clear of using the term mid-major. But then he classifies BYU and VCU as "mid-majors" (with which I strongly disagree). He also fails to make clear Dayton and San Diego State are major programs.

I have noted in the past that as a former college sports journalist (and still in the media) I continue to this day to occasionally hear people who say the Big East is not a power conference (which I feel is absurd) and that Gonzaga is a "mid-major" (equally absurd). They argue that if you are "not fully in the comprehensive and exclusive P5 club," you cannot be "partially of that club." I strongly disagree.

College basketball is very unlike college football. You can have a high-major program that is not a member of a P6 league (I put the Big East with the P5 in hoops). And Gonzaga, VCU, Dayton and at least 15 others have proved that.

Still, some folks don't see it that way. It baffles me.



https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...rojection/

From the Palm piece:

Q: Excluding Gonzaga, San Diego State and Dayton, who are your top 5 mid-majors when it comes to chances for an at-large berth? — from @mikezor052588

A: Ah, my least favorite word in college basketball -- "Mid-major". I don't use it because it is too vaguely defined. For instance, someone I was talking to this past week referred to Butler as a mid-major. That's a tough sell. Yes, Butler was in the Horizon League not that long ago, but the Bulldogs are in the Big East now. Gonzaga is a major program in a non-major conference. The A-10 is often a multiple-bid league, but does not have the depth of quality like the major conferences.

I hate to tell you this Bill, but it does look like college basketball is going to go down the same road as college football. With pay for play practically here, you will finally see movement on this front, and it doesn't look good for any outside the P6. Notice I said P6, not P5,, and no, I'm not referring to the AAC's dumb campaign to win P conference recognition; I am referring to the P5 conferences plus the Big East, although I am not sure how long the P5 conferences will tolerate the Big East's existence in basketball.

Why would they not "tolerate" the Big East? They are the perfect conference for 4 out of the P5. They are quality opponents for OOC (look at the Gavitt games and the XII challenge), they increase the value of the post season and last but not least don't want or take any of their precious FB money. If there ever is a split it's much more likely the Big East comes along than gets left out.

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Gonzaga still makes the tourney every year but one or two. Northwestern would have the same number of bids in the WCC — 1. They haven’t fielded a team better than Saint Mary’s since 2003.

(02-02-2020 10:00 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Gonzaga still makes the tourney every year but one or two. Northwestern would have the same number of bids in the WCC — 1. They haven’t fielded a team better than Saint Mary’s since 2003.

I disagree. think it's much easier to get up for a few OOC games then it is to deal with the grind of night in night out power conference BBall.

(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

If Gonzaga were (in this crazy hypothetical) in the Big Ten and getting even more five-star players thanks to that league affiliation — and with Mark Few coaching — it would still be a damn fine program.

Not sure about Northwestern's hoops budget but if it's as robust as you say, that's a lot of wasted money given NU is likely one of the five worst hoops programs in the basketball P6.

NU's all-time winning percentage is about 42 percent and its arena seats 7,500. "Mid-major" Dayton is Duke compared to Northwestern.

(02-02-2020 10:42 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-02-2020 10:00 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Gonzaga still makes the tourney every year but one or two. Northwestern would have the same number of bids in the WCC — 1. They haven’t fielded a team better than Saint Mary’s since 2003.

I disagree. think it's much easier to get up for a few OOC games then it is to deal with the grind of night in night out power conference BBall.

Yes...but there’s a point where that line no longer matters. Gonzaga and Saint Mary’s vs Northwestern (the worst P6 program) is a case where those two programs are just significantly better than Northwestern. Northwestern has no basketball culture to recruit to. It’s like comparing UCF and Boise football to Vanderbilt.

Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

(02-03-2020 05:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

And the flip side is with the Zags taking on more losses in a tougher conference and missing some NCAA's they don't get as good of players they are getting now.

My point was you can't compare NCAA appearance #'s between the top of a 1-2 bid league and the bottom of a 6-9 bid league.

(02-02-2020 03:56 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-28-2020 08:59 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

Sorry, that's just the way it is in my opinion. It doesn't mean the school can't be elite. Everyone knows that a win over Gonzaga is way more impressive than a win over Northwestern (or South Carolina). Just like in football where a win over Boise St says a whole lot more than a win over Rutgers. But "mid major" status is by definition based on what conference you play in.

What dictionary is that "definition" to be found in? I think you have "definition" confused with "opinion".

For the record, over the past six seasons (the length of time over which tournament units are paid out) eight conferences have averaged more than 2 at-large entries per year. They are:

ACC 6.2
XII 5.7
B1G 5.5
SEC 4.5
EAS 4.0
PAC 3.5
A10 2.3
AAC 2.2

No other conference has averaged 1 at large entry. MWC (0.8) and the WCC (0.7) come closest. The MVC also had a few years with more than the one autobid, but only while Wichita State was still in the conference. Otherwise, no MVC team would have received an at-large bid.

I agree, that’s why I draw the line between the PAC 12 and the A10 and AAC

(02-03-2020 06:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 05:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

And the flip side is with the Zags taking on more losses in a tougher conference and missing some NCAA's they don't get as good of players they are getting now.

My point was you can't compare NCAA appearance #'s between the top of a 1-2 bid league and the bottom of a 6-9 bid league.

Maybe-- I can't speak for the Zags, all I know is that my alma mater is now called a mid-major when we have a better history than 85% of the so-called P5+BE. We're compeititve now, put UC in a power conference and we are kicking everyone's arse.

(02-03-2020 08:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 06:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 05:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

And the flip side is with the Zags taking on more losses in a tougher conference and missing some NCAA's they don't get as good of players they are getting now.

My point was you can't compare NCAA appearance #'s between the top of a 1-2 bid league and the bottom of a 6-9 bid league.

Maybe-- I can't speak for the Zags, all I know is that my alma mater is now called a mid-major when we have a better history than 85% of the so-called P5+BE. We're compeititve now, put UC in a power conference and we are kicking everyone's arse.

In fairness, CliftonAve, a number of posters who follow programs in the hoops P6 have posted that UC basketball is a major to high-major program. They get it. Those who post otherwise are either uninformed or trolling.

(02-03-2020 08:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 06:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 05:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

And the flip side is with the Zags taking on more losses in a tougher conference and missing some NCAA's they don't get as good of players they are getting now.

My point was you can't compare NCAA appearance #'s between the top of a 1-2 bid league and the bottom of a 6-9 bid league.

Maybe-- I can't speak for the Zags, all I know is that my alma mater is now called a mid-major when we have a better history than 85% of the so-called P5+BE. We're compeititve now, put UC in a power conference and we are kicking everyone's arse.

Not to start anything but just to set the record straight. UC was in a power conference when they were in the Big East and they were perennially in the middle of the pack of the conference.

(02-03-2020 10:56 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 08:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 06:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 05:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

And the flip side is with the Zags taking on more losses in a tougher conference and missing some NCAA's they don't get as good of players they are getting now.

My point was you can't compare NCAA appearance #'s between the top of a 1-2 bid league and the bottom of a 6-9 bid league.

Maybe-- I can't speak for the Zags, all I know is that my alma mater is now called a mid-major when we have a better history than 85% of the so-called P5+BE. We're compeititve now, put UC in a power conference and we are kicking everyone's arse.

Not to start anything but just to set the record straight. UC was in a power conference when they were in the Big East and they were perennially in the middle of the pack of the conference.

Oh boy... you realize the program put itself on a self-imposed death sentence when they fired Huggins, right? The team had one scholarship player with a bunch of NAIA guys that first year in the Big East (plus they borrowed Connor Barwin from the football team). It took several years to dig out of that, but by 2010-2011 they won 26 games. They following year the Bearcats went to the Sweet 16. What was Rutgers's excuse for their piss-poor showing in hoops. When UC and Rutgers were in the Big East, your team would win 3-5 conference games a year. That's pathetic!

Ironically, you are making my point. Rutgers basketball finally has a pulse-- and its all due to your B10 affiliation.

(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Are you just trolling again or can provide a legitimate source? I'm going to bet you're just trolling again.

(02-03-2020 11:22 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 10:56 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 08:47 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 06:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-03-2020 05:26 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Disagree Northwestern would have NCAA appearances if in the WCC or some other conference. Heck, there is a better chance they would have been even worse. Their recruiting would have suffered, not having the B10 carrot to dangle in front of recruits.

And the flip side is with the Zags taking on more losses in a tougher conference and missing some NCAA's they don't get as good of players they are getting now.

My point was you can't compare NCAA appearance #'s between the top of a 1-2 bid league and the bottom of a 6-9 bid league.

Maybe-- I can't speak for the Zags, all I know is that my alma mater is now called a mid-major when we have a better history than 85% of the so-called P5+BE. We're compeititve now, put UC in a power conference and we are kicking everyone's arse.

Not to start anything but just to set the record straight. UC was in a power conference when they were in the Big East and they were perennially in the middle of the pack of the conference.

Oh boy... you realize the program put itself on a self-imposed death sentence when they fired Huggins, right? The team had one scholarship player with a bunch of NAIA guys that first year in the Big East (plus they borrowed Connor Barwin from the football team). It took several years to dig out of that, but by 2010-2011 they won 26 games. They following year the Bearcats went to the Sweet 16. What was Rutgers's excuse for their piss-poor showing in hoops. When UC and Rutgers were in the Big East, your team would win 3-5 conference games a year. That's pathetic!

Ironically, you are making my point. Rutgers basketball finally has a pulse-- and its all due to your B10 affiliation.

What does Rutgers have to do with your claim that if cincy was in a power conference they would kick ass? You were in a power conference and you didn’t. You picked UC’s best season (which they finished tied for fourth) but fail to mention they went 9-9 the following season finishing 9th. In fact they finished below 8th all but 2 times as a member of a power conference. Those are facts, attacks on my school have no bearing on what Cincy actually did with their opportunity in a big boy league.

(02-03-2020 11:33 AM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  

(02-02-2020 09:30 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 10:01 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(01-23-2020 09:57 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  To me the mid majors are anyone outside of the P5 +Big East.

Doesn't mean that Wichita St, Gonzaga, Cincinnati, etc aren't elite level programs, but that's just reality.

It is almost almost impossible to describe Gonzaga, for example, as a "mid-major" and, for example, Northwestern (not to pick on NU) as a "power conference program." It simply makes no sense. Northwestern has been to one NCAA tourney (and that is just one example of the difference between the two programs). Northwestern has the Big Ten as home — and that is basically the only advantage it has on Gonzaga.

If a program is at a high-major level (as Wichita, Gonzaga and Cincy are, and as you correctly suggest), that program is not a "mid-major program," regardless of its league home. That's just how I see it. Others see it differently.

But to be fair if Northwestern played a WCC schedule instead of a B1G schedule the last 20 years they would have had more NCAA bids and if the Zags played a B1G schedule instead of a WCC schedule over the last 20 years they would have had fewer.

Also Northwesterns budget for BBall dwarfs everyone not in the BBall P6.

Are you just trolling again or can provide a legitimate source? I'm going to bet you're just trolling again.

Says the guy who goes on unhinges rants about the big east when they have like one poster on these boards.

AAC currently has 4 programs I would consider Major:

Cincy
Memphis
Houston
UConn

Wichita State is close, but not in the same category yet

Tulsa and Temple are high mid-major category, like WKU, NMSU, VCU, BYU etc. Good traditions, support,but not major

The rest of the AAC are mid-major (or lower).