(01-14-2020 12:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:04 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 11:57 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 10:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Easily. OJ arguably was #1. Right up there with the best.

IMO too many extaneous things like NFL and character taint this list.

I don't know, he's arguably not even the best USC running back ever. It's pretty close between OJ and Marcus Allen.

I think he is, but still, that's kind of like saying "I don't know if Jabbar was the greatest center ever, he's arguably not even the best Lakers center. It's pretty close between him and Shaq and Wilt".

Well duh, because Shaq and Wilt are very strong "GOAT center" candidates themselves, just like Marcus is as a college RB.

Really getting off topic to talk about NBA players -- but there's NFW that Shaq and Wilt were as good as Kareem.

IMO, Kareem is the NBA GOAT, even over Jordan. When he was at his best in the 1970s he was just a force of nature. Plus he's also the GOAT college and high school player as well, just the best basketball player who has ever lived.

Still, Shaq and Wilt were awfully great players so it's not like comparing them is unreasonable.

I have a ton of respect for Kareem and he's definitely in the top 5 all-time for NBA... but I'll back MJ until the day I die.

Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever, had he not walked away at age 30 and still in his prime, and played another 5-7 years. He had averaged well over 1,500 yards per year over his, until then 10 year NFL career. 1 year before retiring, he had over 2,000 yards. At 5 more years at 1,300 yards per year (a conservative guess since he would have declined a little and had been averaging over 1,500), he would have ended his NFL career with nearly 22,000 yards.

Sanders walking away at age 30 cost him the undisputed greatest running back of all time title, instead of sharing it with 2 or 3 other backs.

(01-14-2020 01:19 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:04 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 11:57 AM)Wedge Wrote:  I don't know, he's arguably not even the best USC running back ever. It's pretty close between OJ and Marcus Allen.

I think he is, but still, that's kind of like saying "I don't know if Jabbar was the greatest center ever, he's arguably not even the best Lakers center. It's pretty close between him and Shaq and Wilt".

Well duh, because Shaq and Wilt are very strong "GOAT center" candidates themselves, just like Marcus is as a college RB.

Really getting off topic to talk about NBA players -- but there's NFW that Shaq and Wilt were as good as Kareem.

IMO, Kareem is the NBA GOAT, even over Jordan. When he was at his best in the 1970s he was just a force of nature. Plus he's also the GOAT college and high school player as well, just the best basketball player who has ever lived.

Still, Shaq and Wilt were awfully great players so it's not like comparing them is unreasonable.

I have a ton of respect for Kareem and he's definitely in the top 5 all-time for NBA... but I'll back MJ until the day I die.

YEP!

(01-14-2020 02:17 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:12 AM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 11:14 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(01-13-2020 10:37 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Never won the Heisman

Never saw him play live but his feats were legendary

He is also considered one of the greatest Lacrosse players of all time

Could've been drafted into the NBA too and make the Olympics.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/st...ory-26-150

If we're going greatest all-around athlete... Jim Thorpe

If we're going strongest power back... Earl Campbell

If we're picking teams... I'll take Barry Sanders!

Fastest back...CJ2K



Also, Adrian Peterson in his prime was pretty powerful.

Craig James only 2 killed?

CJK5H

(01-14-2020 02:19 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever ....

Yes but ... this is a list of greatest college players, not NFL players. Sanders had one amazing season in college but Campbell had 3, so Campbell should be higher on a college GOAT list.

(01-14-2020 05:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 02:19 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever ....

Yes but ... this is a list of greatest college players, not NFL players. Sanders had one amazing season in college but Campbell had 3, so Campbell should be higher on a college GOAT list.

Go back and look at Campbell's college stats. He had 3 OK years and one good one with 1,700 yards, over a thousand yards less than Sanders had in his great season. Sanders had a season for the ages. Which means more than 3 mediocre ones and 1 good one. In Campbell's other seasons, he had 1,100, 900, and 600 yards...nothing to write home about. Good, but not great. His Heisman season was not an all time great Heisman season. Just a good season by Heisman standards. Sanders had a once in a 100 years season.

(01-14-2020 08:51 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 05:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 02:19 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever ....

Yes but ... this is a list of greatest college players, not NFL players. Sanders had one amazing season in college but Campbell had 3, so Campbell should be higher on a college GOAT list.

Go back and look at Campbell's college stats. He had 3 OK years and one good one with 1,700 yards, over a thousand yards less than Sanders had in his great season. Sanders had a season for the ages. Which means more than 3 mediocre ones and 1 good one. In Campbell's other seasons, he had 1,100, 900, and 600 yards...nothing to write home about. Good, but not great.

Campbell had a better overall college career.

(01-14-2020 08:53 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 08:51 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 05:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 02:19 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever ....

Yes but ... this is a list of greatest college players, not NFL players. Sanders had one amazing season in college but Campbell had 3, so Campbell should be higher on a college GOAT list.

Go back and look at Campbell's college stats. He had 3 OK years and one good one with 1,700 yards, over a thousand yards less than Sanders had in his great season. Sanders had a season for the ages. Which means more than 3 mediocre ones and 1 good one. In Campbell's other seasons, he had 1,100, 900, and 600 yards...nothing to write home about. Good, but not great.

Campbell had a better overall college career.

By playing 4 years and racking up yards in good, but not great seasons.

Imagine if Sanders had returned for his senior year, instead of declaring for NFL draft. Also, imagine if he did not have Thurman Thomas, also one of the all time greats and a hall of famer in his own right, ahead of him as a freshman and sophomore.

Remember that was a different era. Freshman simply did not play, and especially ones on teams that had future hall of famers ahead of them.

No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders. The GOAT RB of all time, IMO.

(01-14-2020 11:57 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 10:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 09:41 AM)kevinwmsn Wrote:  If the USC guy didn't do what he did, do you think he would have cracked the top 11?

Easily. OJ arguably was #1. Right up there with the best.

IMO too many extaneous things like NFL and character taint this list.

I don't know, he's arguably not even the best USC running back ever. It's pretty close between OJ and Marcus Allen.

Nicole couldn't decide between those two either.

I’m not sure he’d be in my top ten to be honest

(01-14-2020 09:01 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 08:53 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 08:51 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 05:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 02:19 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever ....

Yes but ... this is a list of greatest college players, not NFL players. Sanders had one amazing season in college but Campbell had 3, so Campbell should be higher on a college GOAT list.

Go back and look at Campbell's college stats. He had 3 OK years and one good one with 1,700 yards, over a thousand yards less than Sanders had in his great season. Sanders had a season for the ages. Which means more than 3 mediocre ones and 1 good one. In Campbell's other seasons, he had 1,100, 900, and 600 yards...nothing to write home about. Good, but not great.

Campbell had a better overall college career.

By playing 4 years and racking up yards in good, but not great seasons.

Imagine if Sanders had returned for his senior year, instead of declaring for NFL draft. Also, imagine if he did not have Thurman Thomas, also one of the all time greats and a hall of famer in his own right, ahead of him as a freshman and sophomore.

Remember that was a different era. Freshman simply did not play, and especially ones on teams that had future hall of famers ahead of them.

Campbell's era was a full 10 years before Sanders era and he played at Texas, a better place than Oklahoma State. And we can't base our judgments on what guys might have done had they played more years, etc. only on what they did do. So IMO they got it right in putting Campbell ahead of Sanders, but wrong in putting Sanders ahead of Tony Dorsett.

IMO, guys like Brown and Sanders are rated too high on this list. They are both getting credit for what they did in the NFL. And FWIW, I agree Sanders was a better NFL back than Brown. Not only was he straight-up better, but Sanders put up his numbers against much bigger and stronger defenders. Brown was often the same size or even larger than the Linebackers he faced, sometimes even the DLs of his day. Sanders had to play against modern monsters.

(01-14-2020 09:05 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  No one in history could jump cut and change directions, and generally make defenders look like absolute fools like Sanders.

That's true. He was like a drone or hummingbird with his stop on a dime and change direct moves, then the burst of speed.

The knocks against him are short-yardage running and the playoffs, where he was sub-par.

(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

(01-15-2020 10:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

Quo, You and I are roughly the same age. I never saw him play either. I, personally would go with Hershal or Bo. But our opinions dont matter. The guys who matter voted for Jim Brown, which makes me very, very happy as a fan of Syracuse. When you look at his college career numbers, we have to remember that they only played 8 or 9 regular season games back then. He was truly the first great, dominant RB in the college game. The man was so athletically gifted that e truly could have made a living in other sports like the NBA, at the time. He played Lacrosse too. I hear that they had to change rules of that game because he was so big and fast and unstoppable.

Regarding his halo affect, I dont believe there was one with Jim Brown. He was brash, outspoken and he didnt handle racism very well at all. I have heard many stories over the years about his brawls and throwing guys thru windows. He had the option of retiring from the NFL in his prime to go make movies because he had such a tough guy reputation and movie star look.

(01-14-2020 08:51 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 05:32 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 02:19 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Barry Sanders should have been higher than #9. Arguably better than Jim Brown and definitely better than Earl Campbell. Rushed for 2,850 yards in 12 games at OK St.

Sanders would have rushed for nearly 25,000 yards and put the total NFL rushing record away forever ....

Yes but ... this is a list of greatest college players, not NFL players. Sanders had one amazing season in college but Campbell had 3, so Campbell should be higher on a college GOAT list.

Go back and look at Campbell's college stats. He had 3 OK years and one good one with 1,700 yards, over a thousand yards less than Sanders had in his great season. Sanders had a season for the ages. Which means more than 3 mediocre ones and 1 good one. In Campbell's other seasons, he had 1,100, 900, and 600 yards...nothing to write home about. Good, but not great. His Heisman season was not an all time great Heisman season. Just a good season by Heisman standards. Sanders had a once in a 100 years season.

1000 yards is not mediocre. And Campbell was not mediocre his junior year, he just didn't play a lot because he was injured.

Barry had a season for the ages. I don't think anyone has approached his last year.

(01-15-2020 10:59 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

Quo, You and I are roughly the same age. I never saw him play either. I, personally would go with Hershal or Bo. But our opinions dont matter. The guys who matter voted for Jim Brown, which makes me very, very happy as a fan of Syracuse. When you look at his college career numbers, we have to remember that they only played 8 or 9 regular season games back then. He was truly the first great, dominant RB in the college game. The man was so athletically gifted that e truly could have made a living in other sports like the NBA, at the time. He played Lacrosse too. I hear that they had to change rules of that game because he was so big and fast and unstoppable.

Regarding his halo affect, I dont believe there was one with Jim Brown. He was brash, outspoken and he didnt handle racism very well at all. I have heard many stories over the years about his brawls and throwing guys thru windows. He had the option of retiring from the NFL in his prime to go make movies because he had such a tough guy reputation and movie star look.

Cuse, first, i do not begrudge any Syracuse fan celebrating Brown as #1. As you say he is the choice of the official College 150 panel. If they had picked a guy from my school i would celebrate too

As for Halo though, i am talking about how he is viewed today. No question, back in the 50s any Halo effect Brown experienced then was negative, rooted in racism.

(01-15-2020 10:59 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

Quo, You and I are roughly the same age. I never saw him play either. I, personally would go with Hershal or Bo. But our opinions dont matter. The guys who matter voted for Jim Brown, which makes me very, very happy as a fan of Syracuse. When you look at his college career numbers, we have to remember that they only played 8 or 9 regular season games back then. He was truly the first great, dominant RB in the college game. The man was so athletically gifted that e truly could have made a living in other sports like the NBA, at the time. He played Lacrosse too. I hear that they had to change rules of that game because he was so big and fast and unstoppable.

Regarding his halo affect, I dont believe there was one with Jim Brown. He was brash, outspoken and he didnt handle racism very well at all. I have heard many stories over the years about his brawls and throwing guys thru windows. He had the option of retiring from the NFL in his prime to go make movies because he had such a tough guy reputation and movie star look.

Brown was 5th in the Heisman voting his senior year. It was definitely NFL effect.
Ricky Williams had a negative NFL effect. He wasn't on championship teams, so despite leading the NFL in rushing one year, he just didn't get attention.
Compare their stats, noting that Williams was way down the list:
Brown 24 games 21 TDS 2,211 yards 5.9 per carry
Williams 46 games 75 TDS 6,279 yards 6.6 per carry.

for discussion, here are Barry Sanders stats:
Sanders 30 games 48 TDS 3,556 yards 6.8 per carry
Senior year 11 games 37 TDS 2,628 yards 7.6 per carry

(01-15-2020 12:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:59 AM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:26 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-15-2020 10:18 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-14-2020 12:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Brown is probably the NFL GOAT, but i do not think his college accomplishments enough to merit that.

GOAT will always be in the eye of the beholder. And I always think that the age of the beholder strongly influences his vote. For an old fart like me, when I heard they were going to make this list, my mind immediately went to Jim Brown.

But why? Did you really see Jim Brown play in college football? You'd have to be in your 70s to have done that. You might be but I'm just saying, because I'm 55, a pretty old fart myself, and not only never saw him play in college, I missed his whole NFL career as well. He retired when I was 1 years old.

So just looking at his college numbers, I don't think there's any way he can be regarded as the GOAT, not even close. Not ahead of Herschel and Bo and OJ, and that QB from Nebraska in the 90s or Tebow or Cam or a whole bunch of guys. Ron Dayne had a better career. Bleacher Report had him as the #8 RB of all time and that was generous.

I think it obvious that a Halo Effect caused by his NFL GOAT-ness and his overall multi-sport athletic greatness is influencing this appraisal.

Quo, You and I are roughly the same age. I never saw him play either. I, personally would go with Hershal or Bo. But our opinions dont matter. The guys who matter voted for Jim Brown, which makes me very, very happy as a fan of Syracuse. When you look at his college career numbers, we have to remember that they only played 8 or 9 regular season games back then. He was truly the first great, dominant RB in the college game. The man was so athletically gifted that e truly could have made a living in other sports like the NBA, at the time. He played Lacrosse too. I hear that they had to change rules of that game because he was so big and fast and unstoppable.

Regarding his halo affect, I dont believe there was one with Jim Brown. He was brash, outspoken and he didnt handle racism very well at all. I have heard many stories over the years about his brawls and throwing guys thru windows. He had the option of retiring from the NFL in his prime to go make movies because he had such a tough guy reputation and movie star look.

Brown was 5th in the Heisman voting his senior year. It was definitely NFL effect.
Ricky Williams had a negative NFL effect. He wasn't on championship teams, so despite leading the NFL in rushing one year, he just didn't get attention.
Compare their stats, noting that Williams was way down the list:
Brown 24 games 21 TDS 2,211 yards 5.9 per carry
Williams 46 games 75 TDS 6,279 yards 6.6 per carry.

for discussion, here are Barry Sanders stats:
Sanders 30 games 48 TDS 3,556 yards 6.8 per carry
Senior year 11 games 37 TDS 2,628 yards 7.6 per carry

Wow, Brown did not average 100 yards per game. Plenty of guys have done that, now and in the past.