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Nukesquad Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 02:43 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 10:10 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  There is some merit to the OP. In the modern world of players transferring at the drop of a hat, you may have to throw some of these kids a bone to keep them around, and not be scrambling to find a new point guard when one graduates. I am sure the old school folks will say that the kids should just man up and do what they need to do to get on the court, and frankly I agree with that sentiment, but reality is that we live in a different world now, and some small concessions may need to be made in order to keep your roster in tact, and maintain continuity "stay old", rather than face rebuilding seasons so often.

Well we know the Greek and Reece are better than Dickens, yet they both sat on the bench for a year. Perhaps people transfer out because they do in fact deserve to play. It is frustrating enough as a fan, can you imagine being a player watching a lesser player perform poorly while being forgotten on the bench? How do you have addition by subtraction? If the team is better off with someone not playing, put them on the bench. Why did Godwin and Dickens get all those minutes in their last game if Jones already knew at that point we were better without them? No wonder people leave or get bored and become discipline problems.

I will say that it's hard to say that a 6'5" player (i.e. "Greek) is significantly better that a 7' player, in regards to matchups/game strategies/etc. On the flip side, it is apparent that this particular team is showing improvements with their absence.

On the point on Godwin/Dickens consuming minutes, we did see (once eligible) Oliver's minutes increase with Godwin's decreasing. So you could say that performance results in practice/games/etc was revealing itself.

As a general commentary, you do bring up an interesting point with "If the team is better off with someone not playing, put them on the bench." I think this already occurs with our younger players. This was shown with Reece last year (who has publicly stated this to be true), and apparently Hunter this year. I agree that those who give your team a chance to win should be on the floor. However, it appears a good amount of poster questions regarding "why isn't Hunter playing" when those questions could probably be answered with your statement.
01-06-2020 03:05 PM
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mac Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 03:05 PM)Nukesquad Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 02:43 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 10:10 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  There is some merit to the OP. In the modern world of players transferring at the drop of a hat, you may have to throw some of these kids a bone to keep them around, and not be scrambling to find a new point guard when one graduates. I am sure the old school folks will say that the kids should just man up and do what they need to do to get on the court, and frankly I agree with that sentiment, but reality is that we live in a different world now, and some small concessions may need to be made in order to keep your roster in tact, and maintain continuity "stay old", rather than face rebuilding seasons so often.

Well we know the Greek and Reece are better than Dickens, yet they both sat on the bench for a year. Perhaps people transfer out because they do in fact deserve to play. It is frustrating enough as a fan, can you imagine being a player watching a lesser player perform poorly while being forgotten on the bench? How do you have addition by subtraction? If the team is better off with someone not playing, put them on the bench. Why did Godwin and Dickens get all those minutes in their last game if Jones already knew at that point we were better without them? No wonder people leave or get bored and become discipline problems.

I will say that it's hard to say that a 6'5" player (i.e. "Greek) is significantly better that a 7' player, in regards to matchups/game strategies/etc. On the flip side, it is apparent that this particular team is showing improvements with their absence.

On the point on Godwin/Dickens consuming minutes, we did see (once eligible) Oliver's minutes increase with Godwin's decreasing. So you could say that performance results in practice/games/etc was revealing itself.

As a general commentary, you do bring up an interesting point with "If the team is better off with someone not playing, put them on the bench." I think this already occurs with our younger players. This was shown with Reece last year (who has publicly stated this to be true), and apparently Hunter this year. I agree that those who give your team a chance to win should be on the floor. However, it appears a good amount of poster questions regarding "why isn't Hunter playing" when those questions could probably be answered with your statement.

Exactly! And Hunter is one of my favorites. His time will come. Besides the very, very top teams, most freshmen just have to wait their turn. Hunter will be a great player for us, maybe even this year, who knows.
01-06-2020 03:11 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Men's basketball depth
Hunter just hasn't played well so it say to assume he's not ready. He's got some of the worst splits on our team so far this year....not surprising from a true freshman point guard.

Alvis and Reece are different types of players than Dickens and Dickens certainly has the highest upside of the 3. Coaches gave him all the opportunity to realize that upside but it didn't pan out.

On the flip side, what if you put Hunter in for 10 mins a game and he continues to struggle and loses confidence?
01-06-2020 03:36 PM
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ODU BBALL Online
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Post: #24
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 03:36 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Hunter just hasn't played well so it say to assume he's not ready. He's got some of the worst splits on our team so far this year....not surprising from a true freshman point guard.

Alvis and Reece are different types of players than Dickens and Dickens certainly has the highest upside of the 3. Coaches gave him all the opportunity to realize that upside but it didn't pan out.

On the flip side, what if you put Hunter in for 10 mins a game and he continues to struggle and loses confidence?

As opposed to the confidence that he is gaining sitting on the bench?
01-06-2020 03:54 PM
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ODU BBALL Online
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Post: #25
RE: Men's basketball depth
Much is being said about the team playing better since Dajour and Godwin have departed. While that is obviously true the following - which has nothing to do with their departures - is also true and likely has a lot to do with the better play:

1). Oliver has only recently become eligible and has gotten back closer to playing shape. His addition is very significant.

2). The team has had more opportunities to work on things in practice during the school's holiday break. Plus with so many new faces on the team, it is reasonable to expect that things would improve over time as they became more accustomed to one another and established roles to play.

3). The teams that they have defeated (all at home) aren't as strong as many that they have suffered losses to earlier in the season.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 04:04 PM by ODU BBALL.)
01-06-2020 04:03 PM
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bluelight Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 03:05 PM)Nukesquad Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 02:43 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 10:10 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  There is some merit to the OP. In the modern world of players transferring at the drop of a hat, you may have to throw some of these kids a bone to keep them around, and not be scrambling to find a new point guard when one graduates. I am sure the old school folks will say that the kids should just man up and do what they need to do to get on the court, and frankly I agree with that sentiment, but reality is that we live in a different world now, and some small concessions may need to be made in order to keep your roster in tact, and maintain continuity "stay old", rather than face rebuilding seasons so often.

Well we know the Greek and Reece are better than Dickens, yet they both sat on the bench for a year. Perhaps people transfer out because they do in fact deserve to play. It is frustrating enough as a fan, can you imagine being a player watching a lesser player perform poorly while being forgotten on the bench? How do you have addition by subtraction? If the team is better off with someone not playing, put them on the bench. Why did Godwin and Dickens get all those minutes in their last game if Jones already knew at that point we were better without them? No wonder people leave or get bored and become discipline problems.

I will say that it's hard to say that a 6'5" player (i.e. "Greek) is significantly better that a 7' player, in regards to matchups/game strategies/etc. On the flip side, it is apparent that this particular team is showing improvements with their absence.

On the point on Godwin/Dickens consuming minutes, we did see (once eligible) Oliver's minutes increase with Godwin's decreasing. So you could say that performance results in practice/games/etc was revealing itself.

As a general commentary, you do bring up an interesting point with "If the team is better off with someone not playing, put them on the bench." I think this already occurs with our younger players. This was shown with Reece last year (who has publicly stated this to be true), and apparently Hunter this year. I agree that those who give your team a chance to win should be on the floor. However, it appears a good amount of poster questions regarding "why isn't Hunter playing" when those questions could probably be answered with your statement.

In the minutes that Hunter has played, he has shown that he is capable of holding his own for 5-7 minutes per game. After all, teams in this conference are average mid level. Don't make the same mistake this year, by playing your PG 40 minutes. Hunter is capable of playing in this league now, unless he is in JJ's dog house.
01-06-2020 04:05 PM
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ODUCoach Online
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Post: #27
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 04:05 PM)bluelight Wrote:  In the minutes that Hunter has played, he has shown that he is capable of holding his own for 5-7 minutes per game. After all, teams in this conference are average mid level. Don't make the same mistake this year, by playing your PG 40 minutes. Hunter is capable of playing in this league now, unless he is in JJ's dog house.


Maybe it's just me, but it seemed to work out just fine last year.
01-06-2020 04:13 PM
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Prideofalion Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Men's basketball depth
Put me in the camp that would like to see hunter play at least 5 minutes a game. 2 or 3 minutes in some games, 7 to 10 minutes in other games depending on matchups, fouls, etc
01-06-2020 04:58 PM
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Nukesquad Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 04:58 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Put me in the camp that would like to see hunter play at least 5 minutes a game. 2 or 3 minutes in some games, 7 to 10 minutes in other games depending on matchups, fouls, etc

I would certainly agree with this. I would completely endorse at least 5min a game, maybe more based on situation. But I'm also not mad if I see 0 min...just as long as it's apparent that the current plan is working.
01-06-2020 05:03 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Men's basketball depth
I would like for him to play as well. He just hasn't played well up to this point. I don't like Green as primary ball handler either.
01-06-2020 05:04 PM
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Prideofalion Offline
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RE: Men's basketball depth
They aren’t playing Curry 40 mins a game. He’s been at or near 32 minutes in a lot of these games. Curry is finally starting to show a little more poise and play making at the point. Even though he can’t throw it in the ocean, he’s showing improvement in that he can run the team some. Would like to see hunter get a few minutes. He’s had a few good rotations this season. I think he flashes good potential.
01-06-2020 05:22 PM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 04:13 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:05 PM)bluelight Wrote:  In the minutes that Hunter has played, he has shown that he is capable of holding his own for 5-7 minutes per game. After all, teams in this conference are average mid level. Don't make the same mistake this year, by playing your PG 40 minutes. Hunter is capable of playing in this league now, unless he is in JJ's dog house.


Maybe it's just me, but it seemed to work out just fine last year.

Except that we had zero returning point guards on this year's roster.
01-06-2020 05:24 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 05:24 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:13 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:05 PM)bluelight Wrote:  In the minutes that Hunter has played, he has shown that he is capable of holding his own for 5-7 minutes per game. After all, teams in this conference are average mid level. Don't make the same mistake this year, by playing your PG 40 minutes. Hunter is capable of playing in this league now, unless he is in JJ's dog house.


Maybe it's just me, but it seemed to work out just fine last year.

Except that we had zero returning point guards on this year's roster.

We would have if the point guard that was expected to replace him could ....um...pass some tests....or not partake in illegal activities.
(This post was last modified: 01-06-2020 11:15 PM by Gilesfan.)
01-06-2020 11:14 PM
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Justanodufan Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 11:14 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 05:24 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:13 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 04:05 PM)bluelight Wrote:  In the minutes that Hunter has played, he has shown that he is capable of holding his own for 5-7 minutes per game. After all, teams in this conference are average mid level. Don't make the same mistake this year, by playing your PG 40 minutes. Hunter is capable of playing in this league now, unless he is in JJ's dog house.


Maybe it's just me, but it seemed to work out just fine last year.

Except that we had zero returning point guards on this year's roster.

We would have if the point guard that was expected to replace him could ....um...pass some tests....or not partake in illegal activities.

Classy as always.

JK wasn’t going to play the point under JJ. He was wreckless with the ball and if you look at pg play under JJ you will notice a trend of steadiness (freeman and Caver)
01-07-2020 01:07 AM
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T-Mac Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-06-2020 11:48 AM)Justanodufan Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 10:51 AM)T-Mac Wrote:  I had a similar discussion with another business owner in our field. She has very high standards that she expects her employees to meet before they can move up from very part-time (10 hours per week) to part-time (20-30 hours per week) to full-time (40+ hours per week). She complained to me that it was hard to find people willing to wait months to become full-time...which is why they're applying for the job in the first place.

I told her she has two jobs: 1) Find people willing to take the ACTUAL job and all it entails, and 2) Provide great services to her clients. If she can't do #1, she'll never be able to do #2.

I think this is applicable to JJ. He seems to have very high standards. High standards aren't necessarily a bad thing, IF you can find enough people to consistently meet those standards. The reality is that JJ has chased off as much or more talent from the program as he's retained. Clearly, if he can't keep players long enough to develop, his theoretical outcomes don't matter. Reality is all that matters.

JJ should HIGHLY consider taking a page out of Tom Coughlin's book. Pick your battles. Figure out when to cut some players some slack, and when to show tough love and hold their feet to the fire. Not every player will thrive in a super rigid system. Find the ones that can thrive in that environment, and adjust your style to those who won't thrive in that system.

Who do you think he has chased off?

Any and all transfers out of the program are in some capacity the coach's fault. Whether they were a bad recruit, weren't developed by the staff, didn't have the proper motivation or work ethic, or whether they were recruited over, it all comes back to the head coach. Turnover isn't necessarily a bad thing. Ideally every recruit is able to contribute at some point in their career and buy in to everything he has to do to help the team. Sometimes you're going to swing and miss, though. I don't mind the program losing the 1-3 players with the lowest ceiling every year. That's not what is happening, though. We're retaining our 1-3 worst players, and losing our 4-8 best players on a regular basis. That's a coaching issue.
01-13-2020 01:48 PM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-13-2020 01:48 PM)T-Mac Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 11:48 AM)Justanodufan Wrote:  
(01-06-2020 10:51 AM)T-Mac Wrote:  I had a similar discussion with another business owner in our field. She has very high standards that she expects her employees to meet before they can move up from very part-time (10 hours per week) to part-time (20-30 hours per week) to full-time (40+ hours per week). She complained to me that it was hard to find people willing to wait months to become full-time...which is why they're applying for the job in the first place.

I told her she has two jobs: 1) Find people willing to take the ACTUAL job and all it entails, and 2) Provide great services to her clients. If she can't do #1, she'll never be able to do #2.

I think this is applicable to JJ. He seems to have very high standards. High standards aren't necessarily a bad thing, IF you can find enough people to consistently meet those standards. The reality is that JJ has chased off as much or more talent from the program as he's retained. Clearly, if he can't keep players long enough to develop, his theoretical outcomes don't matter. Reality is all that matters.

JJ should HIGHLY consider taking a page out of Tom Coughlin's book. Pick your battles. Figure out when to cut some players some slack, and when to show tough love and hold their feet to the fire. Not every player will thrive in a super rigid system. Find the ones that can thrive in that environment, and adjust your style to those who won't thrive in that system.

Who do you think he has chased off?

Any and all transfers out of the program are in some capacity the coach's fault. Whether they were a bad recruit, weren't developed by the staff, didn't have the proper motivation or work ethic, or whether they were recruited over, it all comes back to the head coach. Turnover isn't necessarily a bad thing. Ideally every recruit is able to contribute at some point in their career and buy in to everything he has to do to help the team. Sometimes you're going to swing and miss, though. I don't mind the program losing the 1-3 players with the lowest ceiling every year. That's not what is happening, though. We're retaining our 1-3 worst players, and losing our 4-8 best players on a regular basis. That's a coaching issue.

Well said. People around here just love to crap all over every player that transfers, as if they were just horrible human beings that we don't want anyway.

Another interesting thing to look at is where our players are transferring to. The answer is pretty low tier teams. It really shows you the level of players JJ is getting, when you some some of the more highly touted recruits ending up and places like Hampton.
01-13-2020 02:11 PM
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ODUCoach Online
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Post: #37
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-13-2020 01:48 PM)T-Mac Wrote:  Any and all transfers out of the program are in some capacity the coach's fault.

With 900+ transfers from every team in the land, I just don't buy it always being "the coach's fault." Kids these days have a ton of "advisors" and sometimes, it doesn't matter what the coach says/does.
01-13-2020 03:00 PM
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VB Monarch Online
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Post: #38
RE: Men's basketball depth
“ in some capacity” being the key words here. Not complete responsibility
01-13-2020 03:31 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-13-2020 03:00 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 01:48 PM)T-Mac Wrote:  Any and all transfers out of the program are in some capacity the coach's fault.

With 900+ transfers from every team in the land, I just don't buy it always being "the coach's fault." Kids these days have a ton of "advisors" and sometimes, it doesn't matter what the coach says/does.

If an advisor is able to convince a kid that there's a better situation at another school, the coach has failed to convince the kid that the advisor is wrong.
01-13-2020 03:58 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Men's basketball depth
(01-13-2020 03:00 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(01-13-2020 01:48 PM)T-Mac Wrote:  Any and all transfers out of the program are in some capacity the coach's fault.

With 900+ transfers from every team in the land, I just don't buy it always being "the coach's fault." Kids these days have a ton of "advisors" and sometimes, it doesn't matter what the coach says/does.

It is a problem for us, though. Travis Fields would make a huge difference on this team. He is averaging 12 ppg and shooting 44% from 3. Mike Hueitt is averaging 7 ppg in 15 minutes and shooting 36% from 3 for a much better team than ours. They would be #1 and #2 in 3 point percentage on a terrible shooting team if they were still around, and I think we can largely attribute their transfers to JJ's offensive style and handling of players. It has already been said here, but JJ needs to adapt to that climate of 900+ transfers and find a way to keep his young shooters around.
01-13-2020 04:07 PM
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