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odu09 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 11:41 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:26 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  So, I actually think JJ coached a really good game last night. We had no business being in that game, but I thought his coaching gave us a chance.

With that said, I really wish he was not so "old school" at times. The number of mid-range jump shots we take makes my eyes bleed. I can't believe we run so many sets where that seems to be the goal. Also, it's 2019, was there any thought given to the idea of potentially going 2-for-1 at the end. We had the ball with 50 seconds to go. A quick set might get us two possessions instead of one that resulted in Oliver tripping and throwing something at the rim.

On that note, another thing that drove me mad last night is that we did not once try to attack their press. We let them do exactly what they wanted to do, eat up 15 seconds before we could get into our offensive sets.

I was more bothered by the fact that we didn't try to post Green up a single time when he was being guarded by Gilyard or Francis.

This

Brought a friend to the game, and that was his biggest takeaway. "Why aren't our bigger guards posting up against their little guards?"
12-19-2019 02:27 PM
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Prideofalion Offline
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Post: #82
RE: ODU vs Richmond
Not surprised at the loss. Richmond is better than us right now, obviously. ODU was better than them the last three years. That’s why Odu had won 3 in a row. I don’t give a damn about style of play. Just want to win. With that being said ODU needs to take better shots and they will make more shots. The way to do this is to move the ball quicker and attack more aggressively. I don’t think the shooters are bad. We shoot poor percentages because we take bad shots.
Godwin isn’t a bad shooter, he takes terrible off balance shots. The only shot he made last night was balanced and in rhythm. Go figure. If Curry would start playing more aggressively like he did in the second half we could be decent. He’s been absolutely miserable which is why they’ve tried to let Green run point. The possessions in our games are actually up quite a bit from years past. The scores are low because we turn it over a ton and shoot horrendously because of poor shot selection.
12-19-2019 02:29 PM
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odu09 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 01:20 PM)monarx Wrote:  Was anyone actually surprised that when UR got the ball with 12 seconds left that they were going to win? As soon as that happened I told my wife "they're going to hit a shot with about 2 seconds to go and we'll lose". I just hate seeing guys that cant shoot every year. Its got to be more than coincidence at this point. There is something to Jeff's style that turns decent shooters into shot missers. That said, I also remember when BT was let go that Wood (the master of over-selling and under delivering) said he was going to hire a coach that excelled at exciting, fast paced, high scoring basketball. Id say JJ is the opposite of all three of those. And I can live with that as long as we're winning. But when we have to sit through slow, ugly, low scoring games and still lose, it becomes close to unbearable.

I had the same thought as you, I had a feeling the game was over after we gave them the ball with 12 seconds to go, but I was surprised that we were in the game that late. I was thinking UR would win by 8-12, so at least we got a decent game. Still doesn't help with the solid losing streak we are on.
12-19-2019 02:33 PM
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odu09 Offline
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Post: #84
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 02:02 PM)mac Wrote:  Man, I can't fathom how far off I was in pre-season. I figured we would win 23-25 games. BUT, I WAS WRONG.

Besides the fact we have poor ball handlers, below average foul shooters, weak inside game, weak point guard play and we can't shoot, how did I go wrong!

I went back and found my prediction post this offseason, I had us pegged 9-4 OOC. It's looking like we will be 4-9, so I had it literally backwards. Overall I predicted 20-11. Now it's looking like we are a 10 win team unless we really pull it together. Even USM isn't looking like an automatic win anymore.
12-19-2019 02:36 PM
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Post: #85
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 02:29 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Not surprised at the loss. Richmond is better than us right now, obviously. ODU was better than them the last three years. That’s why Odu had won 3 in a row. I don’t give a damn about style of play. Just want to win. With that being said ODU needs to take better shots and they will make more shots. The way to do this is to move the ball quicker and attack more aggressively. I don’t think the shooters are bad. We shoot poor percentages because we take bad shots.
Godwin isn’t a bad shooter, he takes terrible off balance shots. The only shot he made last night was balanced and in rhythm. Go figure. If Curry would start playing more aggressively like he did in the second half we could be decent. He’s been absolutely miserable which is why they’ve tried to let Green run point. The possessions in our games are actually up quite a bit from years past. The scores are low because we turn it over a ton and shoot horrendously because of poor shot selection.

For 4 years we knew when Caver was graduating. Why didn't we recruit a point guard to learn how to play NCAA D1 college basketball over those years? Exhibit A on why the transfer portal is a terrible recruiting strategy for a mid-major.
12-19-2019 02:37 PM
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Post: #86
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 02:05 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:26 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  So, I actually think JJ coached a really good game last night. We had no business being in that game, but I thought his coaching gave us a chance.

With that said, I really wish he was not so "old school" at times. The number of mid-range jump shots we take makes my eyes bleed. I can't believe we run so many sets where that seems to be the goal. Also, it's 2019, was there any thought given to the idea of potentially going 2-for-1 at the end. We had the ball with 50 seconds to go. A quick set might get us two possessions instead of one that resulted in Oliver tripping and throwing something at the rim.

On that note, another thing that drove me mad last night is that we did not once try to attack their press. We let them do exactly what they wanted to do, eat up 15 seconds before we could get into our offensive sets.

I was more bothered by the fact that we didn't try to post Green up a single time when he was being guarded by Gilyard or Francis.

Posting up is a pretty ineffecient shot, but Im assuming that is not something Green does often (cant remember him posting up anyone).

That's the problem with all your stats. WE CAN"T SHOOT THE THREE.We are terrible at that. So stop taking them I say. Of course we can't shoot inside either, so we are screwed. Trey Freeman was might good at the mid-range game, I'd take another one like that.
12-19-2019 02:52 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #87
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 02:52 PM)mac Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:05 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:26 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  So, I actually think JJ coached a really good game last night. We had no business being in that game, but I thought his coaching gave us a chance.

With that said, I really wish he was not so "old school" at times. The number of mid-range jump shots we take makes my eyes bleed. I can't believe we run so many sets where that seems to be the goal. Also, it's 2019, was there any thought given to the idea of potentially going 2-for-1 at the end. We had the ball with 50 seconds to go. A quick set might get us two possessions instead of one that resulted in Oliver tripping and throwing something at the rim.

On that note, another thing that drove me mad last night is that we did not once try to attack their press. We let them do exactly what they wanted to do, eat up 15 seconds before we could get into our offensive sets.

I was more bothered by the fact that we didn't try to post Green up a single time when he was being guarded by Gilyard or Francis.

Posting up is a pretty ineffecient shot, but Im assuming that is not something Green does often (cant remember him posting up anyone).

That's the problem with all your stats. WE CAN"T SHOOT THE THREE.We are terrible at that. So stop taking them I say. Of course we can't shoot inside either, so we are screwed. Trey Freeman was might good at the mid-range game, I'd take another one like that.

Or thats the exact reason why it's not a problem. If Green is at 0.75 points per "post up attempt," its a bad shot.
12-19-2019 02:55 PM
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odu09 Offline
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Post: #88
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 02:55 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:52 PM)mac Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:05 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:36 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  On that note, another thing that drove me mad last night is that we did not once try to attack their press. We let them do exactly what they wanted to do, eat up 15 seconds before we could get into our offensive sets.

I was more bothered by the fact that we didn't try to post Green up a single time when he was being guarded by Gilyard or Francis.

Posting up is a pretty ineffecient shot, but Im assuming that is not something Green does often (cant remember him posting up anyone).

That's the problem with all your stats. WE CAN"T SHOOT THE THREE.We are terrible at that. So stop taking them I say. Of course we can't shoot inside either, so we are screwed. Trey Freeman was might good at the mid-range game, I'd take another one like that.

Or thats the exact reason why it's not a problem. If Green is at 0.75 points per "post up attempt," its a bad shot.

How many of those previous post up attempts were against a player 6' or shorter? If it's not in his arsenal or skillset, that's unfortunate. But all year the coaches knew about these little guards, and there was no thought on posting them up? I think that's just part of the frustration, that we aren't able to expose an obvious weakness.
12-19-2019 03:01 PM
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ODUCoach Offline
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Post: #89
RE: ODU vs Richmond
I don't want Green to be posting up on every possession, I'd just like to see a different look. If he can't be 1.00 point per post up when he has 6 inches on the guy guarding him, he probably should be playing a different sport.
12-19-2019 03:03 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #90
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 03:01 PM)odu09 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:55 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:52 PM)mac Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:05 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  I was more bothered by the fact that we didn't try to post Green up a single time when he was being guarded by Gilyard or Francis.

Posting up is a pretty ineffecient shot, but Im assuming that is not something Green does often (cant remember him posting up anyone).

That's the problem with all your stats. WE CAN"T SHOOT THE THREE.We are terrible at that. So stop taking them I say. Of course we can't shoot inside either, so we are screwed. Trey Freeman was might good at the mid-range game, I'd take another one like that.

Or thats the exact reason why it's not a problem. If Green is at 0.75 points per "post up attempt," its a bad shot.

How many of those previous post up attempts were against a player 6' or shorter? If it's not in his arsenal or skillset, that's unfortunate. But all year the coaches knew about these little guards, and there was no thought on posting them up? I think that's just part of the frustration, that we aren't able to expose an obvious weakness.

Thats the question. How much experience does he have doing it? How good is he at doing it? Just because he's taller doesn't mean he can efficiently score against shorter players. Even big players aren't really efficient at posting up.

Some post players are very good at posting up....but its rare.
12-19-2019 03:04 PM
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ODUBB35 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 03:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:01 PM)odu09 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:55 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:52 PM)mac Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:05 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Posting up is a pretty ineffecient shot, but Im assuming that is not something Green does often (cant remember him posting up anyone).

That's the problem with all your stats. WE CAN"T SHOOT THE THREE.We are terrible at that. So stop taking them I say. Of course we can't shoot inside either, so we are screwed. Trey Freeman was might good at the mid-range game, I'd take another one like that.

Or thats the exact reason why it's not a problem. If Green is at 0.75 points per "post up attempt," its a bad shot.

How many of those previous post up attempts were against a player 6' or shorter? If it's not in his arsenal or skillset, that's unfortunate. But all year the coaches knew about these little guards, and there was no thought on posting them up? I think that's just part of the frustration, that we aren't able to expose an obvious weakness.

Thats the question. How much experience does he have doing it? How good is he at doing it? Just because he's taller doesn't mean he can efficiently score against shorter players. Even big players aren't really efficient at posting up.

Some post players are very good at posting up....but its rare.

Richmond's big guy was pretty good at it. W&M has a pretty good one too. It's not rare just because we can't find one.
12-19-2019 03:14 PM
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Post: #92
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 03:03 PM)ODUCoach Wrote:  I don't want Green to be posting up on every possession, I'd just like to see a different look. If he can't be 1.00 point per post up when he has 6 inches on the guy guarding him, he probably should be playing a different sport.

Points per post up is a very simplistic way of evaluating it. We currently sit at .834 points per 3 point attempt, which is a horrid number and there aren't but a handful of teams in the entire country that are worse. Perhaps if defenses were honest and forced to guard the post up, our shooters would be more open and the 3pt% would go up. Perhaps not, but points per possession is not useful for determining if a play should be run. In football, I am certain a dink and dunk or screen pass yields more yards per attempt than a 50 yard bomb, but you still have to take your shots to keep the defense honest and maintain the yards per attempt number on the short stuff. Maybe the reason that no matter how good of shooters we recruit, we are always a poor shooting team is because we don't do other things that make other teams good shooting teams. Ultimately you have to put together a game plan and execute it. If the game plan is simply to jack up 3s all game because statistics say they get you more points per possession, defenses adjust and take that away.
12-19-2019 03:39 PM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #93
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 03:14 PM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:04 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:01 PM)odu09 Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:55 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:52 PM)mac Wrote:  That's the problem with all your stats. WE CAN"T SHOOT THE THREE.We are terrible at that. So stop taking them I say. Of course we can't shoot inside either, so we are screwed. Trey Freeman was might good at the mid-range game, I'd take another one like that.

Or thats the exact reason why it's not a problem. If Green is at 0.75 points per "post up attempt," its a bad shot.

How many of those previous post up attempts were against a player 6' or shorter? If it's not in his arsenal or skillset, that's unfortunate. But all year the coaches knew about these little guards, and there was no thought on posting them up? I think that's just part of the frustration, that we aren't able to expose an obvious weakness.

Thats the question. How much experience does he have doing it? How good is he at doing it? Just because he's taller doesn't mean he can efficiently score against shorter players. Even big players aren't really efficient at posting up.

Some post players are very good at posting up....but its rare.

Richmond's big guy was pretty good at it. W&M has a pretty good one too. It's not rare just because we can't find one.

Id have to go look at the numbers but you would be surprised. The only positives at postups are if the player posting is a good passer and the other players on the court are good at finding spots to get shots. Pure post up shots are terrible shots.
12-19-2019 03:53 PM
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Prideofalion Offline
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Post: #94
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 02:37 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:29 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Not surprised at the loss. Richmond is better than us right now, obviously. ODU was better than them the last three years. That’s why Odu had won 3 in a row. I don’t give a damn about style of play. Just want to win. With that being said ODU needs to take better shots and they will make more shots. The way to do this is to move the ball quicker and attack more aggressively. I don’t think the shooters are bad. We shoot poor percentages because we take bad shots.
Godwin isn’t a bad shooter, he takes terrible off balance shots. The only shot he made last night was balanced and in rhythm. Go figure. If Curry would start playing more aggressively like he did in the second half we could be decent. He’s been absolutely miserable which is why they’ve tried to let Green run point. The possessions in our games are actually up quite a bit from years past. The scores are low because we turn it over a ton and shoot horrendously because of poor shot selection.

For 4 years we knew when Caver was graduating. Why didn't we recruit a point guard to learn how to play NCAA D1 college basketball over those years? Exhibit A on why the transfer portal is a terrible recruiting strategy for a mid-major.

We did. His name is Travis Fields. He left cause he didn’t want to ride the bench for 3 seasons. He’d be the senior point guard we now need. Justice Kithcart was a lot better backup than people give him credit for last year as well and would be starting but there were prob character issues at play there. We didn’t just lose the “two studs” as I keep reading on here. We can’t ignore the transfer portal. Plenty of good players in the transfer portal. Including Fields and Oliver. 900 kids are transferring every season now in Division 1. The key is to get them early as Sophomores.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 04:02 PM by Prideofalion.)
12-19-2019 03:59 PM
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Post: #95
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 03:59 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:37 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:29 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Not surprised at the loss. Richmond is better than us right now, obviously. ODU was better than them the last three years. That’s why Odu had won 3 in a row. I don’t give a damn about style of play. Just want to win. With that being said ODU needs to take better shots and they will make more shots. The way to do this is to move the ball quicker and attack more aggressively. I don’t think the shooters are bad. We shoot poor percentages because we take bad shots.
Godwin isn’t a bad shooter, he takes terrible off balance shots. The only shot he made last night was balanced and in rhythm. Go figure. If Curry would start playing more aggressively like he did in the second half we could be decent. He’s been absolutely miserable which is why they’ve tried to let Green run point. The possessions in our games are actually up quite a bit from years past. The scores are low because we turn it over a ton and shoot horrendously because of poor shot selection.

For 4 years we knew when Caver was graduating. Why didn't we recruit a point guard to learn how to play NCAA D1 college basketball over those years? Exhibit A on why the transfer portal is a terrible recruiting strategy for a mid-major.

We did. His name is Travis Fields. He left cause he didn’t want to ride the bench for 3 seasons. He’d be the senior point guard we now need. Justice Kithcart was a lot better backup than people give him credit for last year as well and would be starting but there were prob character issues at play there. We didn’t just lose the “two studs” as I keep reading on here. We can’t ignore the transfer portal. Plenty of good players in the transfer portal. Including Fields and Oliver. 900 kids are transferring every season now in Division 1. The key is to get them early as Sophomores.

Maybe we don't lose Fields if Caver doesn't play 40 minutes a game at the point. If the landscape is changing, you have to change to compete in that new landscape, and maybe that means giving a freshman a few more minutes than you would prefer every game to ensure that you have a PG on your roster in a couple years.
12-19-2019 04:14 PM
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Prideofalion Offline
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Post: #96
RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 04:14 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 03:59 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:37 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(12-19-2019 02:29 PM)Prideofalion Wrote:  Not surprised at the loss. Richmond is better than us right now, obviously. ODU was better than them the last three years. That’s why Odu had won 3 in a row. I don’t give a damn about style of play. Just want to win. With that being said ODU needs to take better shots and they will make more shots. The way to do this is to move the ball quicker and attack more aggressively. I don’t think the shooters are bad. We shoot poor percentages because we take bad shots.
Godwin isn’t a bad shooter, he takes terrible off balance shots. The only shot he made last night was balanced and in rhythm. Go figure. If Curry would start playing more aggressively like he did in the second half we could be decent. He’s been absolutely miserable which is why they’ve tried to let Green run point. The possessions in our games are actually up quite a bit from years past. The scores are low because we turn it over a ton and shoot horrendously because of poor shot selection.

For 4 years we knew when Caver was graduating. Why didn't we recruit a point guard to learn how to play NCAA D1 college basketball over those years? Exhibit A on why the transfer portal is a terrible recruiting strategy for a mid-major.

We did. His name is Travis Fields. He left cause he didn’t want to ride the bench for 3 seasons. He’d be the senior point guard we now need. Justice Kithcart was a lot better backup than people give him credit for last year as well and would be starting but there were prob character issues at play there. We didn’t just lose the “two studs” as I keep reading on here. We can’t ignore the transfer portal. Plenty of good players in the transfer portal. Including Fields and Oliver. 900 kids are transferring every season now in Division 1. The key is to get them early as Sophomores.

Maybe we don't lose Fields if Caver doesn't play 40 minutes a game at the point. If the landscape is changing, you have to change to compete in that new landscape, and maybe that means giving a freshman a few more minutes than you would prefer every game to ensure that you have a PG on your roster in a couple years.

I don’t disagree with this. But I also look around the country and see a lot of freshman riding the bench. It seems damn near impossible to cater to every player on the teams wishes. These kids all want instant gratification and I think it’s pretty hard on a coaching staff to say “hey we need to get Fields 15 min a game so he doesn’t transfer”. Don’t u think Fields just looked at the situation and said “I’m not going to start until I’m a senior”. I think it was that simple.
12-19-2019 04:22 PM
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Prideofalion Offline
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Post: #97
RE: ODU vs Richmond
And again, trying to stay on topic of the Richmond game. Nice to see Kalu flash some good basketball. That’s about all we are seeing from anyone. Flashes. No consistency, can’t sustain anything. I like Oliver. The second to last possession he made a good shot fake. Dribbled in and took a good shot that rimmed out. He was just slightly off. The last possession was bad but oh well. Hopefully the guys keep grinding.
12-19-2019 04:35 PM
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RE: ODU vs Richmond
Good points Pride... been such and inundation of ODU news, I forgot all about Kith. We didn't recruit Fields to play minutes... he was a walk-on. He was extremely unimpressive in limited time here and would have been offered a schollie if he was part of the grand plan, but I'm glad he found a niche where he could thrive and is doing well for himself. He made the right decision. Kith was yet another victim of the transfer portal strategy. Obviously there are going to be exceptions, but most people that are going to be impact players are transferring from mid-majors to P5s and not the other way around. There is a reason most of these kids aren't getting playing time at the P5/Big East level and are looking to transfer. You are way too often going to be getting someone that for whatever reason just can't cut it relative to their HS hype (Dickens) or someone that screwed up and we give them a 2nd chance that carries a big risk of being wasted (Kith). Not saying we shouldn't give a 2nd chance here and there, but it is too unreliable to count on and sitting a whole year without playing or getting in trouble is part of it.
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2019 04:37 PM by EverRespect.)
12-19-2019 04:36 PM
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RE: ODU vs Richmond
Agree Ever. I'd really prefer develkping freshmen rather than over reliance on transfers. They are transfers for a reason and it's not because they are NBA prospects.
12-19-2019 04:51 PM
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RE: ODU vs Richmond
(12-19-2019 04:51 PM)VB Monarch Wrote:  Agree Ever. I'd really prefer develkping freshmen rather than over reliance on transfers. They are transfers for a reason and it's not because they are NBA prospects.

True, but at the same time Oliver is a transfer as well. I would hope you could land more transfers who realise their current situation won't get any better and want to go to a place where they can WORK to improve and play, as opposed to getting a transfer from a school due to discipline reasons or kids transferring because they don't want to work hard at their first stop and want it easier at their next school.
12-19-2019 04:59 PM
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